spoiler Discuss- the Flemmeth/Morrigan Relationship

[brokenergy]

Morrigan would need you in a later date, hence the ring. This Blight presents a great opportunity for Flemeth as it allowed her to stop a larger enemy at work. I think that Flemeth sees the 'true enemy' and that Morrigan is just doing what her mother told her; she was basically groomed for a larger purpose. I still believe that the kid would be used to track the last two archdemons or the original magister (if they are still alive).

[DarkeWolf]

hmmmmm using the kid to track the other gods. now that could be very intersting!!

[Suilebhain]

I skipped to the end so if I repeat anything anyone said, please forgive me.

 

My take:

 

Morrigan, at this point, is exactly what she appears - a human mage raised by Flemeth to be her future host. However, I do believe that Morrigan is her flesh-and-blood daughter, that she was conceived as a result of one of those types of couplings Morrigan talks about when she is relating the tales of her childhood, only in her case it was one where Flemeth planned to conceive. I believe that Morrigan did NOT know of Flemeth's plan to possess her, and only told her about how advantageous the child would be to them down the road.

 

Flemeth, on the other hand, is not what she appears at all.

 

The demon inside her is calling all of the shots. This is why she says, "Flemeth has heard it before, and said it" or something to that degree. Flemeth is merely a shell, much like Sophia Dryden. The difference is that the demon form in Flemeth is far more powerful and thus able to preserve the body, and so forth. It is more like the spiritform in Wynne, as Wynne said, some are good, some are evil. However, I also believe that the shell we see has NOT been old for a thousand years, but that the body's span is only prolonged.

 

In the ritual that "Flemeth" is going to enact, it is the transfer of the demon/spirit into Morrigan. I believe that THIS was the true price she paid for her revenge - power at first, then a continued habitation by the demon of her daughters for all time or until the demon grows bored of being in the material realm. Remember, most of the demons are bored with being in a weird place with floating islands and nothing to do but annoy dreamers.

 

When Flemeth says, "One day I may surprise her", it is the spirit talking, and that she one day plans to take over Morrigan's body in one way or another, possibly at a time when Morrigan herself is faced with having to make a deal with a Fade spirit. The fact that Flemeth cannot see this future for certain indicates that the demon is not all-powerful, that it is not able to see its own fate, thus the "perhaps".

 

As the child has not been conceived, she is also not able to see that of the child at the point where she is "exorcised" from the material world back into the Fade.

 

I also believe that Morrigan NEVER LIED to the hero. She evaded the truth as it suited her, but not one thing she said was a lie. reading into this, one can surmise that she was a pawn from the start. The part about allowing her to wander to gain power so that she would become a more suitable host was something she figured out later, and that would make perfect sense. If the mage Morrigan was not powerful enough to cast the "big" spells, she might not have been powerful enough to hold the demon. I do believe that, as the pawn, she was deceived into thinking that her only mission was to conceive the child with the warden and return, and only changed her path when she learned of Flemeth's true plan.

 

Consider that the Old Gods were not gods at all, but were just what they appeared to be - dragons, worshiped by a primitive people who had no concept of gods other than that anything that big and powerful had to be appeased in any manner possible, so worship and sacrifices were in order. Notice that the dragon we meet at the Shrine never speaks nor gives any indication of being anything more than a powerful monster.

 

So, taking all of the above into consideration, I believe that Flemeth's demon is an archdemon, one who has chosen not to occupy the form of a sleeping dragon, but one who was invited to walk the earth in the body of a woman who had the capacity for great magic. The archdemon now called Flemeth planned to have her vessel go out into the workd, conceive a child, have that child take in the spirit of, not an Old God (which is just a dragon), but an archdemon itself, that would be carried to term in the body of Morrigan, who would, by the end of it, be the new Flemeth, whether before or after having the baby.

 

In the end, the result would be two archdemons in human (and comely) form, walking the earth and able to do whatever they wanted, but only if Morrigan is unable to resist.

[DarkeWolf]

lol no worries about the tldr. 3 pages is a loooong read. ;)

some points that I agree and disagree with. but I definitely welcome the new opinions. thanks for joining the discussion. You may find that some of your ideas change while reading thru it, some of mine certainly have.

 

I still hold to my belief that Morrigan is a psuedo-demon. Not in the form of being partially possessed, but of blood. A hybrid, or half-breed. Things that she's inherited genetically....most specifically....her eyes. NONE of the other humanoid races in the game, have yellow eyes. Except for the werewolves of course, but they aren't humanoid by my definition. They're a creation, a result.

Yet, a few of the demons we face, do indeed have....yellow eyes (I think, sorry it's about 3 hours past my bedtime, lol.)

And it can't be aquitted to being a recessive gene. Because well, none of the races have that color of eyes.

Also the fact that Mages don't always breed mages, and you have to be born with the ability, to use magic. ALL of flemeth's girls have been magically active, a trait that I'm throwing in as being partial demons by blood.

Short answer no, I don't think that she's actually hosting one.....yet. at least not for the majority of the storyline. I'm still very iffy on if she's possessed (by flemeth) there at the end of the game.

 

The more I've thought about it, the more that I'm pretty well convinced that Flemeth is her birth-mother too. Just thinking about it, it would be easier probably to infuse her soul into a blood-relative than it would be one that's not.

 

I'm still open to the idea that Marric may or may not be her father. But, considering the stories that have been told about Flemeth being hunted, I wouldn't put it past the old crone to keep some of those witch hunters alive long enough to be taken as "breeding stock". Especially if you read about her "trophys" in the first book, as to how she displays her recent kills.

 

 

My first reaction is to agree that she didnt know about the whole possession thing until she read the first grimoire. But the conversation she has with you after giving it to her, doesn't piece together. And having had a few experiences with some manipulatilve ex's, and some golddiggers that I've had the sense to run the hell away from, there's parts of the story that just outright stink.

Like how she comes off as it being a "please help me save my life" self preservation plus revenge act, then....brings the "oh yeah, and there's something that I want you to get" second grimoire into it. That, added with the fact that if you actually give her the second book, she wants to break off a relationship if you have one with her. That just screams "I got what I wanted, now I'm done with you". And if you tell her to leave, oh....here she is again, when she needs something else from you.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Morrigan's character, but yeah....she's a manipulative gold digger.

 

 

As was my first reaction..... yeah, I also thought that Morrigan found out about the body snatching, and decided to backstab flemeth before flem backstabbed her. that still leaves the question tho, of why carry thru with the plan?

 

afff I gotta get to bed. I'll get back on this at school or when I get home.

 

Again, thanks for joining in!

[Suilebhain]

Thanks for the welcome!

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Morrigan is "good" because she was never taught what being good means and it seems that she is truly uncomfortable with emotions like love and sadness, which she replaces with hate and anger. There is one more emotion she reveals, and that is jealousy. if she was as truly freewheeling as she makes out after the first love session, she would not object to the warden being with Leliana - proof that she really does "feel", despite what she claims. I saw the pain in her eyes too many times to see her as a heartless witch. Manipulative? Oh for sure! Even her first seduction, while comical, reveals that she does not really know how to lure a man like Leliana does. She admits this, though, that she never learned how to be a person.

 

Yes, I agree that she has demon taint in her. Good catch on the yellow eyes. If born of Flemeth the Possessed Shell with a major demon inside, it would stand to reason that she would have demon DNA, and it may be that the second book revealed that, which would be one of the reasons she would decide to break away from all company.

 

One more thing - I think she is duped as to the nature of the spirit that passed into the child. She does know that it will be one of power, but, like I said, I think the idea of "old gods" is really misleading, if dragons truly are the "old gods" and no something that just LOOKS like an old god. Of course, I am speculating, based on my observation and interpretation (not unlike Morrigan) and may be totally off base. It's just that the dragon that we encounter never speaks, nor makes any attempt to be anything other than a raging beast.

 

BTW I do plan on reading the whole thread, but wanted to post my ideas first. I saw that a lot of it starting on page 2 dealt with the book which I have not yet read.

[brokenergy]

I don't really think that Morrigan is a psuedo-demon as there isn't enough good evidence to convince me so. Eyes aren't a good indicator, it could be golden because it is amber coloured (you know that there are people with red or violet eyes, without contacts). I do agree with the last post on other issues though. Morrigan doesn't know how to deal with 'softer' emotions such as love or sadness as she was raised by a demon-witch and her only friends were the animals. She maybe manipulative but that is because she learned this from her mother and she in a way (even though doesn't admit to this) is open to change, so sometime in the future you would see her having a breakdown and I for one would love to be there and laugh at her face.

 

The Old Gods however are in the Maker's eyes false gods already but one question does arise; Just how powerful were the Old Gods back in the day? Were they very powerful dragons with powers of telepathy or really fade spirits in disguise as dragons? How did they really trapped themselves in the deep roads (I don't believe in the Chantry version) and what is the darkspawn?

[DarkeWolf]

no problem, glad to have you onboard for it. its been a very interesting discussion :)

and like I said, some of my opinions have changed from it :)

tho some still remain the same, or very open to debate ;)

 

I think that Flemeth is not fully possessed, IE, part of her own mind remains. Tho I think that the things that she went thru before her possession, and the extensive amount of time that she's spent alive, alone, and bitter have left her not much better off personality-wise than if she were fully possessed.

You're right tho about flem's body. Morrigan reveals this in her dialog after giving her the first book. that she waits till it gets old, feeble, and wizened before she hops into the next.

tho I do have to point out that one of your following opinions is in direct conflict with this one right here. If Flemeth were truly completely controlled by the demon, and the demon as you say, got bored in the fade, and decided to come to the mortal world....why would it be content to sit back, hiding in a swamp? why not go out and manipulate nobles, puppeteer kings? corrupt the Circle of Magi? Seek power behind the scenes. make it's mark on the world of Thedas, instead of hiding out in a hut. which, has GOT to be incredibly boring.

or if its just here to torture... again, hiding out in a swamp isnt gonna give it much opportunity for that.

 

As for her (flem's) demon being an archdemon, I'm afraid I dont think it's possible. At least, not by the storyline. Not an ACTUAL "archdemon" anyway. The archdemons dont exist in the fade. they are mortally trapped in the mortal world, imprisoned deep underground by the Maker (or maybe it was by the tevinters, I can't remember). And they aren't actually demons, they are actually Old Gods, until they are found by the darkspawn and corrupted by their taint.

I will fully admit to the possibility that it could be a type of demon that is currently unknown, but based on that...I dont believe that it could be an "arch" demon. at least, not the ones that are on Thedas.

 

I cant disagree that the old gods might have been a powerful form of dragon. I do have to disagree about the part about them being named such by primitive peoples. The old gods were imprisoned when the Tevinters invaded the Fade, seeking the power of the Maker. The Tevinters were by no means primitive. They were some of the most powerful mages on thedas, and powerful mages dont tend to be superstitious heathens. ;)

 

hahaha yeah, her come-on for the first sex scene WAS pretty obvious and weak, wasn't it? It kinda depends on how you play out the giving the first book to her tho. In one of the dialog options you have the option to ask for a reward for giving her the book when she asks you to find it for her. One of the rewards being something to the effect of "My tent gets cold at night" or something like that.

Its actually kinda funny if you put her off on her offer for sex tho. If you completely stall her, she gets a tad pissy and when you try after that she tells you that "Playing hard to get is YOUR game, not mine." and refuses.

Anyway, back on subject... to me, lying by omission is still lying. so in that aspect, my opinion is that yeah, she did lie to us. I also still don't believe that she was truthful about the whole baby situation.

But I'll definitely agree that she admitted to a lot more than she could have, or should have. And yeah, I'll also completely agree that shes a product of her upbringing. Consider who her parent was. Shes the poster child for the argument of how upbringing affects a person.

An argument for that is that she complains a LOT less about some of the "good" choices you make, after a while, depending on how your interaction is with her. So yeah, it's possible for the hero to be a "Positive" influence on her. Tho thats a game mechanic. All the party characters can be influenced by the dialogs and choices the player makes. Eh, dog being the exception of course.

 

I dunno maybe it's just the name recognition, or the fact that there IS a little bit of similarity... but I keep thinking of Morgan Le Fey. Who is also named "Morigan" depending on which culture is telling the tale. A witch, who raised Arthur's half brother to overthrow him as king. I was about to say that Morgan Le Fey is also a halftbreed demon, but I think thats Merlin, right?

 

Ok, sorry I cant address more, but I gotta get started out for school. Hope to see some more good input for this discussion, its good brainfood :D

[w00teh]

Actually, there's a big difference between the Archdemon and the child, as far as being able to sense it, as the child. The archdemon had been subjected to a huge amount of the taint. Enough to corrupt an old god. The child, is born with it, meaning that it has equal or less amount of the taint than a Warden does. The archdemon was a huge, blinding spotlight to the warden senses. Most wardens can't sense the taint in each other unless they are phenomenally sensative to the taint. Kell, in the book was one of the only wardens that had been known to be able to do it.

 

I fully agree that they may be getting a whole lot more than they bargained for. The phrase be "careful what you wish for" comes to mind, big time.

 

Thats one big flaw that I saw in all that, about the soul of the god being drawn to the child. Something that Morrigan was obviouosly leaving out when she was telling us about the ritual. First off, it's not even an embryo after the first night. It would barely be even recognizable as a mixture of DNA.

What Im trying to get it as it that I dont think the "demon" would recognize it as an inhabitable body. My belief is that Morrigan lied about that, and I also think that Flemeth's power would have been needed to pull that soul in, so to speak.

 

This has been a great discussion. My views and thoughts about the whole situation have changed quite a bit from it!

 

LOL I know that it's really off topic, but I've been replaying vids of the demon's end. If you've got Morrigan and NOT wynn in the party when you kill it, do you guys catch the doubtful look that either Loghain or Alistaire shoots at morrigan right before the demon explodes?

 

Oh, and Energy- I tried playing that quest that you were talking about in th tower. I wasnt ever able to find that 4th piece to be able to fully complete the summoning science. I can get thru the 3rd summoning, but hte 4th one doesn't work :(

 

Thats a very good point, regarding about whether the child can be sensed, and its also an interesting concept because while Flemeth and Morrigan obviously have plans for the child, it's insinuated many times that demons do not understand the taint and its capable of being used against them effectively. Avernus states this in all his research, about how Blood Magic is in the end useless against Demons because it's power is derived from there, and that the main power that Wardens have against them, had something to do with the taint inside them.

 

Also did anyone notice how some Darkspawn Emissaries were capable of summoning Demons without any ill-effects such as possession?

[w00teh]

I skipped to the end so if I repeat anything anyone said, please forgive me.

 

My take:

 

Morrigan, at this point, is exactly what she appears - a human mage raised by Flemeth to be her future host. However, I do believe that Morrigan is her flesh-and-blood daughter, that she was conceived as a result of one of those types of couplings Morrigan talks about when she is relating the tales of her childhood, only in her case it was one where Flemeth planned to conceive. I believe that Morrigan did NOT know of Flemeth's plan to possess her, and only told her about how advantageous the child would be to them down the road.

 

Flemeth, on the other hand, is not what she appears at all.

 

The demon inside her is calling all of the shots. This is why she says, "Flemeth has heard it before, and said it" or something to that degree. Flemeth is merely a shell, much like Sophia Dryden. The difference is that the demon form in Flemeth is far more powerful and thus able to preserve the body, and so forth. It is more like the spiritform in Wynne, as Wynne said, some are good, some are evil. However, I also believe that the shell we see has NOT been old for a thousand years, but that the body's span is only prolonged.

 

In the ritual that "Flemeth" is going to enact, it is the transfer of the demon/spirit into Morrigan. I believe that THIS was the true price she paid for her revenge - power at first, then a continued habitation by the demon of her daughters for all time or until the demon grows bored of being in the material realm. Remember, most of the demons are bored with being in a weird place with floating islands and nothing to do but annoy dreamers.

 

When Flemeth says, "One day I may surprise her", it is the spirit talking, and that she one day plans to take over Morrigan's body in one way or another, possibly at a time when Morrigan herself is faced with having to make a deal with a Fade spirit. The fact that Flemeth cannot see this future for certain indicates that the demon is not all-powerful, that it is not able to see its own fate, thus the "perhaps".

 

As the child has not been conceived, she is also not able to see that of the child at the point where she is "exorcised" from the material world back into the Fade.

 

I also believe that Morrigan NEVER LIED to the hero. She evaded the truth as it suited her, but not one thing she said was a lie. reading into this, one can surmise that she was a pawn from the start. The part about allowing her to wander to gain power so that she would become a more suitable host was something she figured out later, and that would make perfect sense. If the mage Morrigan was not powerful enough to cast the "big" spells, she might not have been powerful enough to hold the demon. I do believe that, as the pawn, she was deceived into thinking that her only mission was to conceive the child with the warden and return, and only changed her path when she learned of Flemeth's true plan.

 

Consider that the Old Gods were not gods at all, but were just what they appeared to be - dragons, worshiped by a primitive people who had no concept of gods other than that anything that big and powerful had to be appeased in any manner possible, so worship and sacrifices were in order. Notice that the dragon we meet at the Shrine never speaks nor gives any indication of being anything more than a powerful monster.

 

So, taking all of the above into consideration, I believe that Flemeth's demon is an archdemon, one who has chosen not to occupy the form of a sleeping dragon, but one who was invited to walk the earth in the body of a woman who had the capacity for great magic. The archdemon now called Flemeth planned to have her vessel go out into the workd, conceive a child, have that child take in the spirit of, not an Old God (which is just a dragon), but an archdemon itself, that would be carried to term in the body of Morrigan, who would, by the end of it, be the new Flemeth, whether before or after having the baby.

 

In the end, the result would be two archdemons in human (and comely) form, walking the earth and able to do whatever they wanted, but only if Morrigan is unable to resist.

 

Thats doubtful IMO, if the Archdemon were just really powerful Dragons, they wouldn't be capable of leading a Blight, High Dragons like the one located at Haven just did what you expected of a monster, it didn't cause an organised invasion of nations of Thedas, it just unleashed a massive rampage every few centuries and went dormant again.

 

The Archdemon however is capable of communicating to the Darkspawn and use them effectively (He was smart enough to draw your entire party to Redcliffe with a few Darkspawn while the main horde ambushed Denerim).

 

Demons in the Fade do not possess such cunning, many of them do not understand the mortal realm at all and believe that their own power would suffice, hence they never use any tactical maneuvers, they just attack and attempt to change any mortal into an abomination. Uldred is an example of this, as does the Desire Demon inhabiting Connor.

 

You also recall how the Old God is "corrupted" by the Darkspawn taint, that doesn't just happen to demons, there is just too many seperating them apart, Demons call out to mortals in the Fade, the Archdemon does no such thing, and calls out to the Darkspawn instead. They are completely different beings, if the Archdemon happened to be just another form of Demon, then there should be demons within the Fade capable of understanding the taint in the Grey Wardens, which they don't.

 

The Tevinter Imperium were hardly "primitive" at that point either, you don't have a grand empire, with powerful magisters and end up being primitive, they worshipped the Old Gods like you said however because they had immense power, and it's obvious their power would've far exceeded that of a normal Dragon. It was also said that the Old Gods taught them magic, whether its true or not, most myths originate from the truth.

[brokenergy]

@Drake: The summoning portal is just behind the bookcases near the staircase to the second level. If you can't see it go to aerial view or press the highlight objects button. There is no instructions for it but all you need to do combine all three parts of the text and have a very good pickpocket near by.

 

Back to discussion

 

These archdemons are obviously not demons but actually something else altogether. There is limited texts but from what I can gain from them is that their spirits come from the fade but are not necessary demonic in nature (remember that demons and spirits can enter things other than humanoids such as trees). It could be that the archdemons were once normal dragons but have seven powerful spirits inhabit them to make them smart (I don't know about this part but feel free to comment). These spirits communicated with the priests within the fade as they still could dream in the fade and learned a great deal of human society to become great war leaders and tacticians. I feel that they have something to do with the fall of the elves and eventual enslavement as there is limited texts in that area also except for the elves fleeing from dragons, demons and magic. During the same time, the elves state that Fen'Harel, the trickster god locked away the good and evil gods in there respected realms and helped with the elven collapse.

 

That been said Flemeth's relationship with the demon is not clearly stated and Morrigan doesn't give any good in site either. Flemeth is still human and still retains her mind but had to sacrifice something that we don't know about. This demon is different from the others as it didn't seek power and leaves Flemeth intact. Flemeth has to therefore to jump from body to body and she is immortal but not like a vampire or a demigod. She only needed one daughter to perform this ritual and to groom her to be as powerful as her. Zevran discusses about Flemeth's daughter in ambient dialogue with Morrigan as well as Flemeth in the personal quest which suggests that Flemeth may not have used her own daughter for the ritual. Could there be more former Witches?

 

It is interesting to note that Morrigan might be similar to Morgan Le Fey. I must point out that Morgan Le Fey is actually Arthur's half-sister and raised their child Mordred.