spoiler Discuss- the Flemmeth/Morrigan Relationship

[DarkeWolf]

It is interesting to note that Morrigan might be similar to Morgan Le Fey. I must point out that Morgan Le Fey is actually Arthur's half-sister and raised their child Mordred.

Thanks for reminding me of the mythology, it's been a long time since I studied it. That brings us right back to square one on the whole possibility of Alistair and Morrigan being related thru Maric, and the child possibly being an inbreed. Thats the possibility for an incredibly strong coincidence.

 

More later, need to study for a while.

[DarkeWolf]

Sorry so long, had a lot of catching up to do :(

 

well, to be honest, nothing is all powerful. And Flemeth made a couple of mistakes. Ones that came back to bite her in the butt. 1) She didnt realize that Morrigan could become attached to the Warden. Whether by friendship, or romantically.

2) IF this part is true, she didnt count on Morrigan getting hold of the truth, and deciding to make a pre-emptive strike. This part I doubt tho, because Flemeth knew pretty much exactly what we were there for, when we showed up to take her book and/or take her out.

 

VERY good point about Flemeth not being able to a future that is beyond her own "death". (ie- the kid's birth) thats something that I'd never even thought about.

 

Have to disagree tho on the part about the mage having to have a certain amount of power to contain the spirit. 1) After reading the 1st grimoire, Mora tells you that it simply makes it easier for Flemeth to take the body if the body is more powerful. Which is why she would prefer to have mora buffed up, so to speak. Plus it means a more powerful body for her to inhabit, once she's in there.

2) Morrigan never says that it "has" to be a mage/witch. She's read that book, and knows what she knows about that trasfer rite. And like has been said, demons can inhabit anything that has once held life. Dead bodies, trees, even CATS! (Shale's recruitment quest).

So if flem was capable of resisting the Taint... what if she came after the warden? She'd have revenge on the Warden, she'd have revenge on Mora (taking her friend, or lover) possibly put mora into the situation of killing her friend/lover or being killed BY her friend/lover. And do whatever she wants with the kid. (Btw, Mora is an abbreviation that the game has for some of Morrigan's filenames, and it's a lot shorter, so I'm just typing it out as that.) Doesnt that sound like something an evil character might be capable of?

 

Or, what if mora is following along with the plan, and the plan is to use the kid for a host for flem. She lets/helps flem inhabit the child, then kills them both? The helpless childbody with flemeth's demon in it. Or twists the rite to where the power of the child kills flemeth when she tries to move in?

 

In the end, the result would be two archdemons in human (and comely) form, walking the earth and able to do whatever they wanted, but only if Morrigan is unable to resist.

only one thing I can think of that wouldnt make sense. Tho, it really is a common "bad guy" mistake. I wouldn't bring along something with that kind of power, because it can always turn on you. What you thought to use as a tool can become the instrument of your own undoing.

HAHAHA tho the idea of the two of them getting cranky with each other and destroying a city while duking it out would be kinda funny!

 

On the point of Mora replacing sadness with hate and anger. I'm not disagreeing with you here, because it's a valid point. But perhaps it's not so much "replacing" as it is a combination of that, and "hiding behind". The biggest example I can think of, is when you tell her "You're a heartless shrew, you know that?" And she comes back with "And you are a fool!" Reminds me of one little kid calling another kid "stupid" and the second comes back "And I hate you!" LOL.

Furthered by some of her return snips when the party banter is going and she ends the conversation with things like "I hate you all".

 

and IF she is to be believed, I think she's got reasons that I can think of for doing it during the PC interaction. 1) She's ticked off at herself for what she feels.

2) She really is getting messed up in the head, and it's pissing her off.

3) She's trying to drive the Warden back, to try to ease the difficulty of when she will leave. Now either of those could be selfish, selfless, or a combination of both.

a fourth reason could be that she's pissed cause she realizes you're right, and she's wrong. Had an ex gf that was like that. She was miss "I'm ALWAYS right, and it's never MY fault". Got TOTALLY pissed off whenever that was proven not to be true.

 

The jealousy that you mentioned is EXTREMELY valid. From my own personal experiences, and experiences of people I've known... continuous casual sex doesnt stay "just casual". Unless both people involved have got multiple involvements. (Which to the best of my knowledge, Mora wasnt) One or the other usually starts getting attached, or ends up getting possessive/jealous. Or both.

I started romancing Leliana waaay too late in the game, because it took me too long to decide to try out the polygamey mod. But I've heard that there's some good snipes (party banter) that go on between the two femmes if you are bouncing between the two of them.

I can honestly relate to what Mora said at me, when she found out that my femme character took Zev for a test drive. She basically put it as You can do what you want, but if you want somebody else, then I'm not sticking around for it. I don't share. had a similar relationship, post-breakup with Ms I'm always right, that was like that. If she wanted to have sex with somebody else, thats ok, but if so, I'm moving on. Cause I don't share. That, and I know just how bad triangles can get.

hahaha tho when I made the offer the the chick who teaches the duelist spec, mora's jealous comments gave me a pretty good chuckle. Especially since she swore by "flemeth's beard" that really got me laughing.

 

I'd recommend the books. Brokenenergy got me interested in them in this thread, and they were a pretty good read. They don't have a whole lot to do with the current GAME storyline, but definitely have a bit of good info in them. And like I said, they're a good read. Plus they're written by the Lead Writer of the game, so it gives you some insight as to how his mind works, for when you're thinking about some of the stuff that happens in the game. Get Stolen Crown first, then The Calling. Dunno if there's any after Calling, havent found them if there are. Calling wasnt as good IMO, just because the accomplishment at the end wasnt as grandoise as taking back a kingdom.

 

Energy- yeah, but the people with those colored eyes, are albinos. Its a genetic defect. And tho she does have the pale skin, mora doesnt have the pale hair that also accompanies albinism (is that the word, or does the "o" go in there too?)

The losers are always the ones in the wrong, as far as the Old God's being "false gods". IE- the Maker and its Chantry are gonna write the history to suit themselves. I agree tho. About the only thing I can agree with the Chantry on, is that mages can present a threat. By not learning how to resist becoming abominations, or not learning to control their magical abilities.

I think that the way that they go about that tho, actually breeds more of a lust for power into their mages than it does to curb it.

I've gotta go back and get leliana to finish up that quest after all. I havent gotten far enough into it on my replay game to get zev yet, and I'm playing a warrior, so I cant pickpocket. Dummy me, my save game from before the tower...I'd forgotten to get leliana out of Lothering. Gotta go back with the alternate lothering mod to recruit her.

 

Warrior- well, all I can say about the Emissaries and their summoning is that in Calling it says that the darkspawn magic works much different than mortal magic does. Beyond that, I'm afraid that I don't have a clue.

Hmmm. So the taint blood powers that you get in the DLC could be more effective against demons? Has anybody gameplayed that? (I can't, I got the the dlc after I finished the game :( ) no demons left to fight :(

 

Tho that changes things from my perspective. If demons are more affected by the taint, then Flemeth's plans may not be to inhabit the child, since it already possess the taint too.

 

Ok, now I'm gonna go uninstall the polygamey mod and see what kinda trouble I can get into with our favorite witch :D

[Suilebhain]

Thats doubtful IMO, if the Archdemon were just really powerful Dragons, they wouldn't be capable of leading a Blight, High Dragons like the one located at Haven just did what you expected of a monster, it didn't cause an organised invasion of nations of Thedas, it just unleashed a massive rampage every few centuries and went dormant again.

 

The Archdemon however is capable of communicating to the Darkspawn and use them effectively (He was smart enough to draw your entire party to Redcliffe with a few Darkspawn while the main horde ambushed Denerim).

 

Demons in the Fade do not possess such cunning, many of them do not understand the mortal realm at all and believe that their own power would suffice, hence they never use any tactical maneuvers, they just attack and attempt to change any mortal into an abomination. Uldred is an example of this, as does the Desire Demon inhabiting Connor.

 

You also recall how the Old God is "corrupted" by the Darkspawn taint, that doesn't just happen to demons, there is just too many seperating them apart, Demons call out to mortals in the Fade, the Archdemon does no such thing, and calls out to the Darkspawn instead. They are completely different beings, if the Archdemon happened to be just another form of Demon, then there should be demons within the Fade capable of understanding the taint in the Grey Wardens, which they don't.

 

The Tevinter Imperium were hardly "primitive" at that point either, you don't have a grand empire, with powerful magisters and end up being primitive, they worshipped the Old Gods like you said however because they had immense power, and it's obvious their power would've far exceeded that of a normal Dragon. It was also said that the Old Gods taught them magic, whether its true or not, most myths originate from the truth.

 

I said too much....I didn't say enough...

 

Let me restate my take on the whole Old Gods - Dragons - Archdemons thing.

 

I said that Old Gods were Dragons who were worshiped by primitive people. Now, primitive does not mean cave dwellers, by any means, but it does mean people who are not as sophisticated as, say, the Greeks, or even the Romans, who ALSO called upon monsters as gods, and their gods did not have the ability to destroy towns (though some might disagree that a huge storm or volcano was not the act of an angry god). The Dragon Age lore states somewhere that even the current Dragon Age is less civilized, more barbaric, thus the killing of kings for the purpose of a hostile takeover is not so abnormal. So, the Tevinter Empire IS primitive, in this sense, much as the Kingdom of Babylon or Ancient Egypt could also be said to be primitive (they worshiped monsters, as well). Also, if the Old Gods had immense power, as you say, than why could they not have fought off one single being (the Maker)?

 

Now, it is said that an Archdemon is a Tainted Old God. In a way, what that says is that an Archdemon is really an Abomination of the highest order. However, I think that the Archdemon itself exists in the Fade somewhere as a spirit, and enters the dragon while it is sleeping, much like a lesser demon can enter a mage (or a child). Demons in the Fade range in power and awareness, from the simplest Rage Demon right up through the Desire Demons. Their cunning is also dependent on this range. Rage Demons do not bother to call out to mages because they do not have the ability to control themselves, let alone a mortal, but we have seen Desire Demons control even a templar, who should be resistant even beyond the level of a mage. Uldred was an easy target because he was angry and wanted the power for revenge. What these folk who deal with demons do not realize is that NO ONE has the ability to defeat the demon once they have surrendered to it. It is their arrogance and naivete that makes them think that they do.

 

Regarding the Archdemon and Darkspawn, and the Taint itself, I believe that the Chantry only has about half of the truth. Mages may have attacked the Golden City, resulting in the Black City. That would have resulted in the Taint, and led to the Archdemons and the Darkspawn, but I think that is as afar as they know.

 

Wynne reveals that there are all manner of spirits in the Fade. Think of the Fade as the Spiritual realm. Thus, it is possible that Archdemons have ALWAYS existed in the Fade, but have been rendered inert due to their inability to gain access to the Mortal Plane on their own, that they need help (thus, abominations and demon-possessed dragons). We learn what the Darkspawn are, if we listened, and why they come from underground. Tainted dwarf females become Broodmothers, and the Broodmothers give birth to the physical forms by which the Taint is conveyed through the physical world as Genlocks. Also, we were told by Morrigan that the Darkspawn take people underground with them. This would be where the Hurlocks come from - humans captured and twisted into a new form. The Taint does not "create" the creatures, it twists them. Think of the Taint like an Unholy Spirit. It has no form on its own but inhabits (or destroys) what it comes into contact with. The other things are twisted werewolves, wolves, bears, and brontos. Ogres may even be warped Qunari.

 

Now, the reason an Archdemon would not call out to a mortal is because the mortal shell would not be able to contain the power, unless that person is powerful in their own right and able to deal with vast amounts of magic. "Magic is meant to serve man, and not rule over him." Once again, the Chantry has it half-right.

[Suilebhain]

My take:

 

In the case of Flemeth, this Flemeth is not the original. "Flemeth has heard it before, and Flemeth will say it" or whatever that paradoxical statement was reveals that each incarnation of Flemth has experienced these circumstances in their turn, and the demon recalls all of it. Morrigan is not yet Flemeth, nor will she be unless the demon is able to track her down at some point and take her over.

 

I think, as I stated before, that the original Flemeth made a bargain with a very powerful evil spirit (remember that Morrigan differentiated between the demons and the spirit that came after) and that the deal was that she would give away her future to make up for the wrong that was done to her. This is not a people with a concept of an afterlife, as far as I can tell. We pass into the Fade when we die, seems about it. So, why would she care at that point whether she would condemn all of her future generations. You have to think in terms of a people who may have little regard for kin and a greater regard for ambition, as is shown in many cases throughout the game.

 

The deal would be that she would give her future for power now, and each time she was about to wear down, she would procreate a new form to inhabit and raise her to be her daughter ("she has had many daughters", "She ate their hearts", "they turned on her"). No one has ever seen a "group" of witches, but each generation has a notion that one exists. Morrigan, being the latest in the string, and the one for the current Flemeth, as taught the magic that Flemeth would need in the future and sent forth to learn the rest as well as increase her capacity for power, thus making it "easier" (meaning "possible"). A difficult possession might result in failure. When Morrigan learned that she would become the next vessel, she rebelled.

 

The plan to gain control of the power of an "old god" would be something that Morrigan might go along with, even though she said that she didn't want to do it ("I never agreed to this") but like she had much choice. The whole idea of being mother to a god would appeal to someone with her persona - power-driven, ruthless. She would not have any kind of lore to tell her what might happen, but how could she resist? The fact that the "old god" may actually be an Archdemon spirit would not occur to her because of the distinction that has been made through her knowledge of history and lore.

 

As far as Flemeth taking over, she did. She ruled the Wilds, much in the way of an Old Dragon herself. She did what she wanted, and when she grew bored she would have Morrigan lure men to the camp. this way, she would remain in safety and obscurity for times when she desired solitude, but be able to wreak her own brand of havoc when she was bored. Once she had Morrigan, there was no need for another child, just the pleasure of the flesh, both of life and death, apparently. A demon does not necessarily want to rule a kingdom - that is too complicated. Sufficed that she had her amusements and was not cooped up in the Fade.

[Suilebhain]

One more thing:

 

The name Morrigan is take from Celtic mythology. She is the dark goddess of war, dominion, prophecy, and so forth, and often is represented as a crow or great black bird. Hmm...food for further thought.

[brokenergy]

Energy- yeah, but the people with those colored eyes, are albinos. Its a genetic defect. And tho she does have the pale skin, mora doesnt have the pale hair that also accompanies albinism (is that the word, or does the "o" go in there too?)

The losers are always the ones in the wrong, as far as the Old God's being "false gods". IE- the Maker and its Chantry are gonna write the history to suit themselves. I agree tho. About the only thing I can agree with the Chantry on, is that mages can present a threat. By not learning how to resist becoming abominations, or not learning to control their magical abilities.

I think that the way that they go about that tho, actually breeds more of a lust for power into their mages than it does to curb it.

I've gotta go back and get leliana to finish up that quest after all. I havent gotten far enough into it on my replay game to get zev yet, and I'm playing a warrior, so I cant pickpocket. Dummy me, my save game from before the tower...I'd forgotten to get leliana out of Lothering. Gotta go back with the alternate lothering mod to recruit her.

 

No I'm not stating that Morrigan is albino, I'm saying that her eyes are golden because it is amber coloured. Sorry for the confusion. And yeah, history is always judged subjectively instead of objectively so the Chantry's version of events is just as valid as words of a politician.

 

About Flemeth:

 

Flemeth's spirit is the real deal but her physical body is that of her daughter. Flemeth is power hungry yes, but she is smarter than to take the power of the Archdemon for herself. I think Flemeth's quest for power ended long ago and now she is trying to stay as neutral as possible, helping the right people to keep the status quo. Remember when you meet her for the first time, she states that the threat is greater than they (Grey Wardens) realise, but she was not talking about the Archdemon or the Blight as the Grey Wardens already knew that but about something else entirely. If we all assume that Flemeth is in search for more power, then we have barely scratched the surface of Flemeth's true motivations or the true threat coming. Flemeth has the ability to see parts of the future and I think that she saw beyond the Blight she had predicted. Morrigan is part of her greater plan and the Warden is part of it even though she can't predict his/her fate she needs him/her to hunt down the true threat.

 

Yes, Morrigan is the name of the goddess of war, she sometimes appears young and other times old. Sounds familiar?

[DarkeWolf]

Well, it turns out that my skill at juggling lovers requires some practice, lol. Didnt get a whole lot of new dialogs out of it. About all I really managed to do was drop her approval from 100 to about 53, and get demoted back down to being "Friends". hahahaha. anyway, back on topic.

 

Energy- I know you're not saying that Mora is an albino. I wasnt either. sorry if what I said, gave that impression :)

I guess the debate on her eyes, I'll just chalk up to the basic rule of gaming. It's fantasy, dont try to explain it with science, lol. They wanted her to have yellow eyes, so she has yellow eyes :)

 

Interesting. I didnt know that there was a mythology for a goddess named "Morrigan". I didnt get much into the celtic stuff when I was in school. But very interesting what the mythology is there about her.

It would lead me to believe that if they followed along with the mythology that at some point in time Mora will take over flem's role as Energy sees her role. As a psuedo protector. Whether demon infested or not. Which would conform even more to the mythology if she attained the power of the old god.

 

I was just reading an interview with the actress that played Flemeth. From the sounds of it, she's definitely going to be reappearing sometime, and playing an active (if behind the scenes) part in future storylines.

[DarkeWolf]

Suilebhain- Ok, I see what you're saying about some older civilizations calling monsters, gods.

While not COMPLETELY true, about the Archdemon being an abomination because of the taint infesting it, it has possibilities. The taint itself is not so much a thinking creature. Not in any more sense than a disease is. Disease is actually a pretty good anology for the Taint. It's infectious, it's partially symbiotic/parasitic, and highly contagious, as well as reproducing. So yeah, I think that disease is a good analogy.

But unlike spirits or demons, it doesnt actively choose where it's going to go. Its spread by it's carriers, the darkspawn. Wherever they go, they spread it. In the books even the moss, lichen and whatnot that were growing in the Deep Roads were infected and mutated with it from where the DS had traveled, habitated.

Humans, who survive an infection of the taint, without the added lyrium and ritual of the Joining become Ghouls. Thats explained in the second book. Genlocks, perhaps, could have been captured dwarves. They are about the same stature. But the DS dont rely on corruption as a breeding method. Such cases as that are pretty much accidents. They breed like an insect hive. To the best of my knowledge, a "queen" hasnt ever been revealed, but they do hatch from eggs/eggsacks much like the Urik-hai in Lord of the Rings movies. The spoiler of the fight against the larval Children reveals them emerging from egg pods a lot like the face huggers did from the Aliens series. The pods I mean, not the actual emerging. The emerging is a lot more like the baby vamps in Van Helsing, they just kinda rip their way out.

 

Its an interesting correlation tho. Thinking about it. Blood magic, for mortal mages makes them much more susceptible to possession. What if the Wardens are wrong, and the taint makes the Old Gods much more susceptible to possession. Thats an interesting idea Suilebhain. There is the counterpoint tho, of what Warrior said about demons being even more highly damaged by the taint than mortals are.

Hmmmm. so what if they arent just corrupted powerful monsters, but also corrupted demons, inside of corrupted monsters. Hmmmmm. I'll have to think on that one some more.

 

Agreed, the chantry, and the circle of magi arent nearly as knowledgable of the taint and the archdemons as the Wardens are.

The Wardens actually have records of where the old gods are buried. Their actual locations. They just can't get to them, nor have the manpower to invest in trying to reach them, in order to take them out pre-emptively.

 

 

Flemeth didnt actually "rule" the wilds. She never claimed it as domain, she never made an effort to take control of anybody that had been living there (as in sayin, I'm the new queen, you now serve me, where are your taxes?). She simply made it known that there were powerful dangers in there, made the surrounding neighbors afraid of her, and killed anybody who got too close to her. For the most part, she dug a den, hid in that den, and killed anything that got too close to her den. Pretty much like a badger. or, she moved in, let it be known that there was a creepy old lady living in the creepy old haunted house down the street. dont go play in her yard, or you'll end up in her stewpot.

 

When did morrigan say "I never agreed to this"? I havent seen that dialog. I HAVE seen dialog (last night when I was breaking up with her, actually) where she said that flemeth forced her to come along with the warden tho.

[brokenergy]

No I completely understand I just wanted to clear things a bit.

 

So far we have this:

 

# Flemeth is using the child and would appear at a later date or as a new narrator

# Morrigan is doing her mother's dirty work inadvertently

# You and Morrigan are connected for the long hall

# The Old Gods are 'Dragons' but are not dragons and they have ability to communicate through the fade.

# Something bigger is at work

 

It's just a simple list feel free to add.

[DarkeWolf]

No I completely understand I just wanted to clear things a bit.

 

So far we have this:

 

1 Flemeth is using the child and would appear at a later date or as a new narrator

2 Morrigan is doing her mother's dirty work inadvertently

3 You and Morrigan are connected for the long hall

4 The Old Gods are 'Dragons' but are not dragons and they have ability to communicate through the fade.

5 Something bigger is at work

 

It's just a simple list feel free to add.

1) I definitely think that we havent seen the last of Flemeth. As I said before, she's had some form of influence in everything that Gaider has had, involving DA up to this point.

2) I'm still not completely convinced of it being inadvertent.

3) Still up in the air. Dunno if it will be "connected" but I definitely feel as though she will reappear at some point or another.

4) lol who knows!

5) Most definitely!

 

6) This has been a fun conversation and brought a lot of ideas to the table.

 

I can't effin wait for March 16th to get here!