spoiler Discuss- the Flemmeth/Morrigan Relationship

[DarkeWolf]

I dont remember for sure what her approval rating had to be in order for her to give you the dialog about the first grimoire, I'm afraid :( I'm pretty sure that it was somewhere around 30-ish. I know that aftward I had given it to her, it boosted her up into the kissable range if you play her dialog right. And the coversation is triggered in a certain spot, in a particular room in the tower. Afraid that all I can remember of that, is seeing stairs that lead up.

But yeah, I tested it a couple of times, and her approval has to be a certain level when you enter that particular area. So when you play the tower again, gift her up before you go in ;) I know that there's a vendor in Ostagar that sells some gifts, including the golden necklace that she likes. And she even likes those dirty pantaloons that the dog scrounges up (+4-5) if you give it to her as one of the first gifts.

Oh yeah, and agree with whatever she says in the dialogs. probly be best to save a game before you hit each room, in case you need to replay the dialogs.

 

just because you believe in something doesnt mean that you have faith from it. I believe in gravity, but I don't worship it. It could be the same for Morrigan and Flemeth. They could believe that the old gods exist....(Obviously) but not worship them as such. Then again, they might, dunno.

I myself, don't see it tho. My belief is that Morrigan is just too practical to have faith in anything that she can't wield. Like she said "Friendship is fleeting. Knowledge has value. Power has value". I cant see her thinking that an imaginary friend would have value. And in her mind, if it doesnt have value, it's foolish. I guess another way to look at it is that she grew up hunted in a huge forest. Anything that didnt have something to do with her own survival, wasn't something she needed. I dont see that faith would be a requirement for surivival.

And while its probably an opinion she inherited from Flemeth, she sees the belief in the maker as something foolish that people use to make themselves feel better. she said something somewhere about it, just can't remember where.

 

I think that Mora may have had some respect for the elves beliefs. Or at least for the fact that they were an ancient race that is rapidly losing what it was. it could also be because they live a lot simpler life than most of the civilized people do. That, and well... in Stolen Throne there was a dalish clan that lived about half a day, or a day's travel outside of Flemeth's stomping grounds. So she may have familiarized herself with that Clan in her childhood. Specially if Maric had ended up sheathing the sword with flemeth during that time. *shivers at the thought*

[brokenergy]

The dialog for the first grimoire didn't happen for me. That could be because I increased Morrigan's approval too quickly through dialog or a bug in the system but giving the first grimoire to her did work it out in the end.

[DarkeWolf]

UGH! Damn, I just made an ass of myself, because memory served me incorrectly. I am REALLY sorry about that guys.

I found my save game while I was originally responding to Energy, and replayed it again. Turns out it wasnt from the grimoir convo, it was from the "Growing up in the wilds must have been lonely" convo.

Also.... ugh... bad memory... the WARDEN said "such things should be preserved" NOT mora. SHE simply agreed and found it refreshing that others thought so. :(

REALLY sorry about that guys.

 

Tho I did come across better info for you on the 1st grim convo. Her approval was at +27 (dunno if +25 will work, or not, the save game I have before that was before I got to the tower. when I had the talk with her on the level SENIOR MAGES QUARTERS of the tower. I got it from the standard "click on them" routine, it wasnt a pop up conversation. SORRY about that too! I tested your theory of raising her approval too fast, energy, and it doesnt matter, as long as its got the required minimum. First time, I got the convo at +27, like I said. I just ran it again, using beguiler to jump her up to 100% and it still worked.

[DarkeWolf]

Ok, well it looks as though I stand corrected (Again, lol). I started up a new game last night, and got to the point where I entered the Kokari wilds to get the darkspawn blood and the treaties. In the conversation with Alistaire prior to going in, I asked him about the Old Gods. And he said something to the effect of "They are Dragons! Bigger, possibly more intelligent, but definitely dragons!"

 

Completely off topic but according to that convo, it was the old gods that taught the tevinters the magic necessary to enter the Dark City, and it was that Maker who imprisoned them for it, after banishing the mages from the city.

That could explain why the old gods have that psychic connection to the darkspawn, as the DS are decendants of the tevinters that invaded the Maker's turf.

[roninsoul7]

Interesting conversation, good work starting it Darke.

 

Is Morrigan Flemeth's biological child? I would have to say yes on the evidence supplied in the game. It would seem that the demon/flemeth hybrid has been creating them for centuries and body hopping to stay "alive". It is the simplest solution, and therefore works with the K.I.S.S. method (Keep It Simple Stupid for those who don't have military friends).

 

Does Morrigan intend to use the child to continue on like Flemeth has for so long before her? It doesn't seem likely considering that she stands more for power and self than relying on others.

Has Flemeth already possessed her at the end of the story? I would have to say no on that account as well, since she didn't suddenly go starting to spout random gibberish that is Flemeth's trademark, and also if you get far enough into the romance with her to get the ring, then you "feel" regret/remorse from her about the way things turned out. I highly doubt a demon/Flemeth hybrid would feel any form of remorse continuing to do what it has done for centuries.

 

What were Morrigan's real motivations for coming with the warden? To get knocked up with the child of a warden. Things changed a bit once she realized the plans her mother had for her. Who wouldn't go a little crazy finding out that dear old mom wanted to turn their "soul" into dust and wear them as a skin suit?

 

As an aside, you can kiss Morrigan right after dealing with the bandit's in Lothering with just the right conversation choices and no gifts, and getting her approval to 30 is easy, which is all it takes to get Witch Gone Wild. Her and Zevran are the "easy" members of your party.

 

The chantry reminds me greatly of the catholic church, and in that regard it means they are likely to have revised pretty much everything they could over time to fit with their agenda, for instance the catholic church made Christ Mass, an event to celebrate the birth of Christ, happen in December coinciding with the Celtic Winter Solstice celebrations to make conversion of "Pagans" easier, rather than in September when the man was actually born (it will take work to find this, but look and you can confirm it). That would mean that you could only trust the established dogma insofar as it would not contradict the goals of the church, so basically it's grain of salt time with anything they say. That means the whole way the darkspawn appeared can be as Wynne said, it may just be a cautionary tale of how man corrupts with power added. Following that line of thought, what are the darkspawn really? My conjecture is that they are what happens when you take something nasty, for example a really strong pride demon, and start messing with it magically. The taint itself is unknown/foreign to the demons, but that only means it is something they haven't seen before, and since they have existed since the beginning alongside the spirits, that means the Tevinter did something new. Avernus' notes on the taint give that much away.

 

What are the Old Gods? Dragons, really old, really strong, really powerful dragons. The one's that you meet ingame are relatively young most likely, and for a species that can last a millenia or more, it is probable that they are still infants to their kind, and reacting just how infants would, by instinct and environmental reinforcement. Raging beast? Of course, you try surviving alone in a world that fears you, most likely hates you. Infants are selfish by design, they cannot survive easily on their own, take away their parents, and you're going to have feral children.

 

Archdemons are these poor trapped dragons being tainted while they are defenseless, the taint drives anyone it comes into contact with mad, but with a purpose to spread it. It was likened to a disease, and that is probably the most accurate thing said about it yet. The taint propogates through other beings, and only when it has something powerful, like say for instance a dragon that could level most countries on it's own, does it try spreading beyond a certain point. Many diseases function the same way, contained until a strong enough host comes along to spread it further. The disease was most likely created by the Tevinter, and that caused the downfall of the most advanced magic culture to date. The tainted old one's death claims the warden who killed it, well that seems rather a direct consequence of being too close to the death of a being that taught the original mages to become what they are, and are most likely thousands of times stronger in said magic than the ones they taught.

 

This is all just my conjecture on how things may or may not go in the world this author has created, but between adding magic, racism, and rampant disease together with a lack of proper hospital facilities, it seems most logical to me. Keep in mind, the author may have a different point of view and I could be wrong.

[DarkeWolf]

Thanks! This has been a very healthy conversation, with a lot of different inputs put into it. And I'm glad to see another join in, thanks! :)

 

heh heh, I dont know if I would consider Flemeth's method of immortality "simple" but, its something that she's had plenty of practice at, and thus, has become good at it. I wouldnt call it simple, just because of all the work involved. The amount of years that it takes, and well.... raising a child can't be easy, regardless of who you are.

 

This is just my own personal conjecture, but I think that part of why Flem is as "loony" as she is currently.... I think she's waited longer than she normally would, to take a new body. Not to say that I dont believe that living as long as she has, hasnt had something to do with it. That many years of life takes it's toll on the human mind, that much I fully believe. Not to mention that waking up to seeing a new face in the mirror can have psycological affects on a person, even when you're used to it. I do believe that those are factors in it.

But I think that Flem has forstalled her plan to take morrigan as a host, because of the rise of the current archdemon, and her plan for the child. I personally think that because of that, her current brain is older than she would have normally have been before taking a new body. (This tho, depending on if you believe that the mind and the brain are seperate entities). IE, I think that she would have taken Morrigan sooner than now, if it hadnt been for her having seen the blight coming.

 

"Survival has purpose. Power has purpose". This is a statement that Mora makes in one of the first dialogs that you can have with her. Survival. This is one of the key factors that leaves me thinking that Mora could go either way, as far as taking the child as a host for herself. Keep in mind tho, that she had absolutely no problem with the idea of using souls to power golems. The slavery of a soul to fuel a more powerful creature to be used as a weapon.

Not that I am disagreeing with you, because I'm still undecided on the issue of what her motives are for the kid. Just throwing out a counterpoint.

(yes, I love debates. even against myself, lol. Its one of the few "fun" intellectual stimuli that I get nowadays).

 

Agreed. As morrigan herself stated "I shall not wait as an empty veseel, waiting to be filled." So as a means of her own survival, her part of the plan changed by the pre-emptive strike against mom.

Odd tho, I've started playing a new game, and in lothering, I came across a banter that has me curious. I mean, I know that the Mora/Flemeth mother-daughter relationship was hardly a healthy one. But in Lothering, Alistaire asks her "And what would you do if it had been Your mother that died?" And she replies with "Would this be before or after I stopped laughing?"

That one left me with something to chew on.

But it does lead me even more towards the fact that Mora doesn't care what happens to a soul, as long as it's not her OWN. when combined with the whole situation of using the Forge to make more golems.

 

BUT- in lothering, there's the situation with Sten in the cage. She refers to him as "a powerful being locked in a cage and left to be killed by the darkspawn". And then presents her opinion to either set him loose, or kill him as a mercy. Myself, I cant help but wonder if thats an opinion risen from the plan for the old god. If it's a preview of what's going to happen at the end of the game.

AND it leaves me wondering if she honestly has the respect for his physical power and thinks that those are the options that he deserves based on his power. OR that she sees him as a tool that could assist in her own survival, and carrying out the plan. A combination of both, or whatever.

But... "A powerful being left in a cage". Sounds a lot like that old god, doesn't it? Supports the notion of what she said about preserving it's soul and about raising it free of the taint.

 

So there's points and counterpoints that could lead us to believe either way on what her true motives are for the kid.

 

 

LOL completely off topic, but you mentioning Zev and "easy" made me laugh. His was the third romance I'd started, and with that, I got tagged with the achievement (SOME achievement, sheesh!) of "Easy Lover".

 

 

I'll get more about the chantry and the dragons later, right now, my post is too long, and becoming a wall of text.

 

As for your final comment. The whole point of this thread is for peeps to express and discuss their opinions and views, and how they believe that things happened/will happen. I myself respect everybody's opinion if I agree with them or not, and am not above being swayed by other's opinions. I mean, the inputs from this thread have DEFINITELY changed some of mine.

As such, this has been a GREAT thread. Not only just for all the points thrown out, opinions given, but also because of the fact that everybody HAS remained respectful of other's opinions and views.

Thanks a lot for pitching in, and bringing this thread back, and welcome aboard to our discussion :)

[brokenergy]

Morrigan would not be able to use the child to sustain her own lifespan as the taint is with in the child as well. So she would have wasted it all for a quick death. I still think that Morrigan has something to do with Maric's promise to Flemeth as Flemeth's actions are darker in nature. So if Morrigan is really Flemeth's daughter, her father could be a random stranger or Maric. The ring allows both the Warden and Morrigan to be connected on a deeper level and I do really think that she really does regret her actions. It allows them to sense each other's location as well as their thoughts to an extent. Yes her real motivation was to get knock up with a god child but that is because Flemeth told her so and taught her the ritual required to perform not her own willingness to obtain a god child for her own self perseveration. I think the child is for a greater sacrifice not a means to obtain unlimited power.

 

The Old Gods are powerful dragons but what gives them their power. There could have been a race of intellectual dragons existed before the elves and the Old Gods are the last of that race founded by the humans who worshiped them as gods. The taint could be massive genetic mutation that happened during experimentation and the darkspawn is the result. Like Frankenstein's monster but worse.

[roninsoul7]

You bring up an interesting point Darke, Morrigan does seem to respect power and those who have it. In most of my playthroughs so far (I restart a lot just to see what I can do next, try out new mods, and basically have fun) Morrigan's comments always come down to doing what would be most expediant for the situation. When you get the cutscene with Alistar after descending the stairs into Lothering, you get the option to ask her opinion and she says "I would find this archdemon and kill it." Now Alistar objects stating that it would be suicidal to do something like that, and at that point, it probably would, but still she is pointing out the quickest and most easy way to end the blight. Imagine for a moment if you actually had the option to skip over all the other main quests and kill the archdemon early (you don't because that would make the game too short and easy, or end with you dead early), then Lothering would probably survive since at the time the darkspawn had still not managed to actually destroy the place. The desire demon in Redcliffe, and the Sloth demon in the circle would be a cake walk in comparison.

 

Does this mean Morrigan has feelings beyond herself? All signs point to yes, women don't get jealous if there is no reason to. Try a game where you only romance Morrigan, and make everyone else just friends, you miss out on some of the banter (you can actually see most if not all of it at the Wikia for dragon age) but she doesn't get jealous of friendships. Out of all the party members you have, both Alistar and Leliana have the option to be "hardened" in the course of their personal quests, all by comments from your warden, but Morrigan does not have any such changes. Her attitude towards your decisions remains pretty constant, the less negative influence usually has more to do with her either not caring about that situation, or the player actually starting to choose the options she likes just to keep her pleased.

 

When you look at it that way, it seems she may wish to either free or kill any being of power. So she may have gone along with the plan at the end just to get that goal. A side note to her as well, I found it on the wikia and tested it, once you get morrigan actually in "love" with your warden, after she gives the ring, she suddenly doesn't want to spend time in your tent anymore... that lead me to thinking that maybe she does actually respect your warden at that point, enough that though she wants to use a warden still, she is no longer comfortable doing so with someone that she sees as an equal.

 

The taint be darned, as it only plays a background role to all the characters choices anyways. For instance, you have dreams about the archdemon, but nowhere are you forced to actually respond to them in the least other than the first time it happens and Alistar walks over to you as you wake to tell you about all the things they never had time before to fill you in on. After that one incident, it really only plays it's part as a background villain.

 

On a tangent, as much as I like the game, and I like it a LOT, I do wish you had some more options of things to do, like breaking the chantry down and giving the elven lands of their own, especially when you end the game and are the meanest mother in the valley, having killed and survived an archdemon. Who in their right mind at that point would say no to the guy who's sword/daggers/magic just heroically ended the biggest threat in over some centuries (Keep in mind, most human history is only clearly remembered for fifty years or so, even with books what is common becomes uncommon the further along you go). Now there is already expansions planned for the game, so who knows, they may actually let you make some of those decisions.

 

Following the chantry being broken, I would keep the templars around myself. It sorta goes along with an idea of the pen and paper RPG I ran for a couple friends, one was a wizard and the other a paladin. Their roles were simple, the wizard nuked bad guys and explored the world, and the paladin kept him honest (also tanked) with the idea that if he ever went all dark side, he was supposed to end the wizard with 5 ft of steel before he could wreak too much havoc. Kind of like policing the police as it were. Templars would be perfect for that, one templar per mage, maybe two since the one's in the game other than Alistar seemed to have a big case of Useless added to them, but still that would be a change I would have loved to have as an option.

 

Ok ending here since I went way out in left field at the end there.

[DarkeWolf]

she does seem to have a respect for those that she perceives to have power, yes. I'm still trying to figure out if she's teasing sten with her flirtacious banters, or actively intersted in him, or both. Well, if she were a real person, I mean.

 

lol yeah, I had to laugh when she said, "find the arch demon and kill it". I had to agree with alistaire that it wouldnt be just that simple. but yeah, she is direct, and to the point. Both in thought, and voice. In some ways, she kinda reminds me of an ex gf of mine, in that aspect. Also in how the more pathetic that she sees an individual, the more disdain that she has for them. Especially that smith in Redcliffe who's all drunk over his daughter still being stuck in the castle. her remarks during that made me wish that the "slap morrigan mod" worked in my game.

btw- why was there never a "grope morrigan" mod? all the times that she complains at Oghren and Zev for their stares and touching her, I think it would be hilarious if she did that, and they reached over and grabbed her butt.

anyway.

 

I actually had to go look up those banters, in my main game, I didnt romance leliana till late in the game, and didnt play her much in the party. (regretting doing it in my replay....she killsteals me left and right! ) I'd read about her snips before, but after actually reading what she said, I had to go and put both of them romance active, and do some bridge running. Wow! Jealousy indeed! and Territorial!!!

All I'd had to go on before, was her breakup dialogs where she goes on about "I dont share, if you want them, fine, but you dont get me too" speech. And her lil tirade at the pearl :D But yeah, she's actually threatening leliana!

 

Hrm, can anybody else verify that about her hitting love, and backing out of the tent? I've had her at love all thru my main game, and she only backs out if I give her the 2nd book. Mods I'm using may have affected that tho.

 

I do agree that she's come to respect the warden. In some ways. I think that there are two possible reasons for why she cuts off. 1) She's gotten what she wants from the warden, and sees no reason to keep up the pretext of a full blown relationship. or B) That she realizes what she has to do in the end and is doing what she has to to make that easier for herself to do. And possibly easier for the warden to let her go.

Or now that I think of it, C) to make the warden more agreeable when she makes the offer of the ritual. I mean, if you're a guy, and your woman ever puts you on "the bread and butter diet", most guys are much more apt to say YES when they open back up again. IE- it's called P U S S Y_C ON T R O L. hahaha.

 

They seriously underplayed the importance of the taint. Think about it, the taint is the whole premise behind the game. Without the Taint, you have no wardens. Without the Taint, you have no darkspawn. Without darkspawn, you have no Archdemon, or even an old god breaking loose.

So I have to argue against it being just a background role, sorry :(

 

Agreed, I do wish that there was more that you could do to make the world of Thedas "a better place". However....yeah.... if we'd had that option in THIS game, what would there be left to do in DA2? How many of the protagonists, and plot twists would we lose for the future?

But yeah, if I ever get the chance to give the elves a homeland, by damned, they are getting it!!

 

Ok, keep in mind that again, the game did a crappy job of portraying this. But only senior mages are supposed to be allowed out, without a templar escort. So...basically.... they'd still be doing exactly what they are doing, except working for you, instead.

 

Ok, question. In my ending, I didnt get the ending with the regret coming from the ring. So, does that only happen if a warden dies?

 

Interesting concept here. By game lore, the elves used to be a LOT more powerful than they are now. Immortal, superior magic, all that. They lost so much that it stripped them of pretty much all their power. What if the dragons were the same way? Humans have tried to make them an extinct species, so could the action of their "Parents" (the old gods) being imprisoned, and all of the troubles that they've had since (from us mortals) have caused something similar in their case?

[brokenergy]

Ok this is not in order but it will answer some questions:

 

(In relation to the ring) No, if you live you can feel Morrigan's regret through her ring (it doesn't matter if you perform the ritual or not). The ring has to be in your inventory in order to happen.

 

(Sten and Morrigan's relationship) Morrigan would have been testing Sten's discipline rather than seducing him for her own pleasure (She's trying to seduce you instead). That or she has a thing for big men.

 

(Morrigan and the Warden's relationship) I really do think that she may have had some small, deep feelings for you (by small I mean 0.0001%). We can see it by her jealousy with other women that the Warden meets during the game and the regret. I think the reason she breaks of the relationship is because that she needs to prepare for something that is worse than the Archdemon and cannot wander from her responsibilities that Flemeth has entrusted her at this time. If there is a DA2 and if BW decide to bring back Morrigan, maybe things would be different with your imported character this time. I don't know if BW decide to re spark that romance or not or even make her a main character but chances are that she and Flemeth are going to have major roles in the sequel.

 

(Mages and Templars) Besides mage warden, could you state an example in-game please?

 

(Elves and Dragons) DA2 has something to do with the fall of the elves and more on the old gods (Foreshadow's notes). Lets hope they don't screw up and choke.