spoiler Discuss- the Flemmeth/Morrigan Relationship

[DarkeWolf]

OMG!!!! She says it! She says it! I am shocked!

 

You were right, this will change many opinions about Morrigan and more so her regret (and no it wont be vaunted warden stamina but part of it). It will give so much new information. Thanks for uploading it Darke. I'll need to study this before posting back.

Actually, you might wanna give the other guys in this thread a chance to see it too, before we comment on it. Give them a chance to have the shyte shocked out of them without the spoilers.

I was gonna post a screenie, but thought better of it, for that reason alone.

Yeah... this revelation really shocked the hell outta me. I dont wanna spoil that for others just yet.

And yeah, I'm.....having to rethink a few of the things we've said so far, after discovering this.

 

 

Not a problem. I wish that I could have streamed it, but like I said, I don't like youtube, and I wish I coulda made it into a better user-friendly format like mpeg or wmv. But.... honestly.... this was so big to me that I thought I wanted to get it out as soon as possible.

 

I also went ahead and started playing two variations from that point. One where I went ahead and boosted her back up to all apps applied, and one where I left her alone at that particular point. So it will be REAL interesting to see if the endings change!

 

 

Oh, and for those that dont have anything to view .avi files, might try IRfanView. http://www.irfanview.com/ I've heard of it a lot, it's really popular, it handle's avi's, is free, and can do conversions. I'll have to check it out.

 

Tho, even tho as hyped as it got me, still a lil bit bitter. At the END of it all!!! At the freaking END of it all!!!! Just like a freakin woman, to drop a bomb like THAT right before something important, and make you wait till then, to do it!!

[tinylewtgriffon]

Need...it...on...youtube...lolI started a new game and I'm too far from the ending to see it :bunny:

[brokenergy]

Don't worry I'll wait till there is more comments before commenting myself. I was really shocked at that moment, dropping that comment like that and all. Wow! Makes you want to wait for DA2 even more now. I'm still in the process of making my official response about that comment, so it will take awhile.

 

Edit: One question, How did you harden Morrigan? I thought that only Ali and Lili could only be hardened

[DarkeWolf]

Ok, ok, uploading the vid to photobucket (just now found out they do vids now too) so will post the link to that once it's finished. Will edit my post when it's uploaded.

 

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v699/Dar...22-42-08-74.flv to watch it in streaming video.

 

I got to playing around with it just a little bit more before I went to bed this morning. And I now have the concrete answer to the question of "Was she just using the Warden?" Combine the line in this pic, with the one in the video and you'll have the answer.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v699/DarkeWolf/PDVD_000.jpg

[tinylewtgriffon]

OHHHHHHHHHHH...that ending...lol, first one I picked lol. Yeah... :bunny:

[Mlai]

1. Are Flemeth and Morrigan related by blood?

 

I don't think that really matters. Morrigan is Flemeth's daughter because she was raised by the old witch. I think you guys are taking the genetics into too much emphasis, as if Morrigan would be "born evil" no matter who raised her. The only thing that it might affect is the whole "child-bearing/transferring ritual" thing, which leads to...

 

2. Is Morrigan a "halfbreed" demon?

 

I don't think genetics apply at all in this case, because demons are 100% SPIRITS. Even Flemeth is basically a very powerful mage with the spiritual aid of an evil spirit. If she has any children, they would be completely normal humans. Darkspawn do carry "taint" by blood/genes, as evidenced by the Broodmother. But demons and darkspawn are completely separate entities.

 

3. Can Morrigan carry out Flemeth's original plans, without having "augmented demonic blood"?

 

As I said above, demons do not give "genetic" bonuses. However, their spiritual aid does involve magical augmentation. So the question really is, is Morrigan powerful enough without having a spirit to help her with magic?

 

4. Is Flemeth a demon-human fusion, or a demon in a human shell?

 

I think you guys give demons too much props. Demons are not Lucifer, or godlike supergeniuses like in AD&D. They are Fade spirits who take on the negative aspects of the human psyche. Incomplete spirits who are envious, and attempt their pale parodies of the human soul. In short, they are INFERIOR to human souls. Like sociopaths (closest analogy). This lack is what makes them "evil."

 

Therefore, I would fear a demon-human fusion much more than a pure demon. Pure demons are ridiculously easy to outsmart and manipulate. In a battle of wills, the demon only achieves victory when we give in to *our own* base human desires/follies.

 

The demon-human fusion entity has no such weakness. It is not just a broken mirror.

 

5. What are the Old Gods?

 

Certainly not just ordinary dragons. I had thought they were the original "Angels" that the Maker made before humans? Didn't The Maker turn away from them because they had no free will? I'd imagine they got envious of the Maker's interest in humans, and went to the world and possessed dragons - the greatest creatures they could find.

 

6. Does Morri lie to Warden?

 

IMO, she has never lied to you. Sure, she does keep her explanations "concise". But that's because...

(1) You never asked. She can rightly assume that you want "plausible deniability."

(2) Is the Warden so dense that he needs everything spelled out? Is it so hard to figure out what she wants to do with the baby? If she really wanted to lie to you, she can just ask to spend the night with you before marching to Denerim by playing the lonely-vulnerable card.

 

 

7. Why does Morri have yellow eyes?

 

Because she's been shapeshifting extensively since she was a child.

 

8. "Primitive civilizations call monsters gods."

 

Wow, how ethnocentric of you. So monotheism is the only "correct/civilized" religion for you? Ever consider that the Maker may not even exist?

 

9. There's something larger at work?

 

I certainly hope not. So the Blights have gone on for... millennia? And now, all of a sudden, because of THE HERO appearing, the 5th-7th Blights will all be taken care of in the span of 1 lifetime, and just in time too, because a NEW BIG BAD IS COMING~!! Wow, Dragonball much? I'm glad Gaider is probably a better writer than that.

 

As someone else had said, the Blight/darkspawn/taint is a *background villain.* Each Blight epic comes with its own subplots and character interactions which makes the real story. You don't need a shiny new villain that is awesomer than a Blight in order to tell the story of Dragon Age games.

 

The upcoming expansion may change this structure a little, though. Ofc, the Architect still won't be greater than A BLIGHT.

 

10. Why can't your character make more world-changing decisions after ending a BLIGHT??!

 

The entire reason Grey Wardens are as well-received globally as they are, is because they are above politics and ordinary historical concerns. The last time Wardens lowered themselves to the level of kings, look what happened (Warden's Keep).

[DarkeWolf]

1) Whether it MATTERS or not, it's a matter of CURIOSITY. Its an object to debate. To find out who thinks what on the subject. It's something to talk about.

While I do agree that Flem is Mora's mother, simply for the fact that she raised her, I do have to disagree that it doesnt have any affect on the trasnferral rit. Blood kin, has always had a significant magical property. And considering that amount of different mythos that are found in this game, I think that Gaider is educated, for lack of a better term, to be aware of that.

I myself think that if she were to transfer into a blood relative, that it would make the process easier for her, and perhaps make for a stronger union. Otherwise, why not just go out and kidnap an enchanter or senior enchanter from the tower?

(BTW- wtF are they called that??? They don't do enchantments!!!)

 

2) A very good point. I know that some of the asian cultures believe in a union of the body and soul, that there's a connection between them, but yeah. thats a very valid point. well made.

It COULD be argued, that the Abominations twist and mutate the body, and thus affect it. I however dont believe it would be a winning debate on the genetics level.

 

3) I dunno. MY main play morrigan could probably take a dead body, at the least. She's got 50 points of magery and 45 points of willpower when I ended the game. (yes, I cheat....) The storyline Morrigan, I dunno. I have no idea how much power is required for that, none of us do, and that's why we've been discussing it.

 

4) It depends. There are degrees of power, in all forms of existance. There will always be those that are stronger, more powerful, or smarter than others. Just because we havent seen some of the demons that are further up the power scale, doesnt mean they dont exist. Well...surreally speaking, of course.

 

4a) ({Atheist here.} The supposed) Lucifer isnt a demon, or even a devil. He's an arch angel who rebelled, and got cast out. Thus making him a Fallen angel. Even the Archs weren't omnipetant, but merely powerful servants. (Overglorified messengers for all the good that they were used for!)

HOWEVER, with the bad rep that he got after being cast out he supposedly prays upon the human selfishnesses, desires, lusts, all the fun stuff that we humans do, just as the demons in the game do, so...... make of it what you will.

 

4b) Inferior to human souls....now who's being ethnocentric...is that the word that was used?

 

5) Sounds a lot more like the plot of a really bad B grade movie that I watched about a bunch of fallen archs. Could be just a coincidence tho. I dont remember that part of the game.

So I'll just stick with the DragonBall Z reference by quoting Vegeta saying "That's one WHOPPER of a lizard!"

 

6-1) More like she doesnt like it when people are in her business.

6-2) Again...this is why it's called a DICUSSION. See thread subject line!

 

7) Meh, so does flemeth but her eyes are brown.

 

9) Possible. Not like what you're saying, but possible about the blights being put to rest....tho very unlikely. The Architect knows the location of the remaining old god. He learned it from a warden. It's pretty obvious that the bad guy isnt gonna be another arch demon in the expansion.... but who knows about the sequel?

IF they decide to not go on with the franchise afterwards, we might end the posiibility of the blights in the 2nd installment. Remember, there are several members of staff quoted in interviews that this will NOT be a trilogy. It could be a continuing franchise PAST 3, but it's NOT planned to be "a trilogy".

 

10) True, they do keep out of political affairs.... Right up until we picked not only the current king of Orzhammar, but also the ruler of Fereldon, and or/became a member of that ruling body... :whistling:

And I'm not being sarcastic there, or arguing with you. Just saying...we kinda....broke that rule and used it for tinder in the fire to come. Oh, yeah, we surely did.

OH! And then we're gonna get PROMOTED to commander!!! :D (now ok, that last part was sarcasm. But not towards anybody here.)

 

The maker isnt real??? Of course he is! the chantry says so! He has to be! [/sarcasm] Ok, sorry, the athiest got control again. OOps, gotta go, I have easter bunny stew brewing at the campfire, and Santa just arrived for supper.

[brokenergy]

(BTW- wtF are they called that??? They don't do enchantments!!!)

 

They are enchanting to the eye? :blink:

[Mlai]

1. True, transferring to a real daughter should probably be easier for Flemeth. I'm saying Mora's character/alignment/personality isn't dictated by whether or not she's Flemeth's biological daughter, so I'm not seeing the point of the discussion.

 

2. An abomination would argue for the "genetic mutation" of a demon-possessed person. But since it only happens to mages, the mutations are probably caused by magic rather than genetics.

 

3. Mora probably needs to learn how to shapeshift to a high dragon first, before being good enough for a transferrence ritual?

 

4. As far as humans know, the Pride demons are the highest/smartest of the demon types -- closest to human level of thought/consciousness.

 

5. I know Lucifer's origin. The point is he's an entity far above human existence. So are all the angels who Fell along with Lucifer, becoming the devils of Hell. The demons from the Fade, in DAO, are not like this.

 

6. How is "inferior to human souls" ethnocentric? Ethnocentrism is the notion that your people's own culture/beliefs/worldview is the best or only proper one in the world. It is fact that Fade demons are pale imitations of the human psyche, which is why they hunger for the human experience.

 

7. Flemeth's eyes are brown, which weakens the notion that Mora must have some sort of demonic blood because her eyes are yellow.

 

8. I am very looking forward to the expansion... I only wish that I can use a new player-character, but keep the "historical events" from the playthrough of 1 of my DAO player characters.

 

9. The picking of kings happened during a Blight, and is directly related to fighting the Blight, so that's excusable. But tearing down the Chantry after a Blight is over, would not go well. Especially since the human world has incorporated the Blights into their religious worldview. Especially after Andraste's Ashes were discovered.

 

I didn't choose to become king, so I can't comment on that...

[brokenergy]

The whole point of this discussion is talk about BW direction with Morrigan's plot. She state that she doesn't know who are her real parents. We don't know if abominations could also affect genetics as this is so early and the writers didn't discussed much about it. Even if Mora learns to shapeshift into a high dragon it could years before Flemeth could take over. By that time she would have a very own body and Mora has learned enough to protect herself. There are things more powerful than demons such as the elven creators and the good spirits.

 

About the old gods, I don't think they are planning to use Lucifer like story to describe about the fall of the old gods. If we look of this from a scientific point of view, the old gods could be part of a once advance race of dragons that fell when the elves came. We know nothing before human settlement about the elves so this could be an explanation about the old gods powers.

 

As for Mora's eyes, could we forget about it as it has nothing to do with discussion.

 

The expansion would usher in a darker enemy, one that would use the darkspawn to destroy everything in existence. Flemeth stated it when you first meet her, do not underestimate her words.

 

The Grey Wardens would try to keep as neutral as possible but there are times when you have to become politically active. If you didn't stop Loghain, the blight would spread and there would be no army to help you and if the dwarven political problem wasn't solved, then the dwarves would be fighting and civil war would interrupt there as well.