A few observations on combatstyles and combat

[GrandsonOfSam]

In the process of making a combat and sneaking overhaul, I have used about 100 hours on tweaking Combat Styles, and have noticed a lot of improvement space left by Bethesda. Also, there are a few things that seem and feel just plain lazy. I use GECK on my edits, they had the luxury of having the possibility to get hardcoded functions, and still the combat is, plainly said, bad.

 

Most monsters have their own combat styles, as do both Mercenary groups in the game, but Enclave and BoS use the Default Style, which is just weird. Enclave and BoS are pseudo-military organizations, and as such, should NOT fight like your everyday shopkeeper. As I have noticed, only thing that is actually keeping them alive in the fights is the fact they use Power Armor, which acts as an equalizer to the fact that they just plain suck at combat.

 

Now we come to the part of modding, and tweaking styles :)

 

I ran some tests on capitol building, as it's one of the early places where you can observe a fight between two Actor groups both with their unique combat styles. Normally the fight goes heavily on the Super Mutants, who kill the Talons very easily, with only few casualties on the SM side. With a little tweaking of game settings and Talon combat style, Talons cleared the whole hill with 0-2 casualties, and worked VERY well as a group, like trained Mercenaries should.

 

The biggest problem for me is to get the Super Mutants on par with the Talons, so they would actually be something else than big pincushions eating all my ammo. I am making the mod for FOOK2, so the SM:s have some very nice upgrade on equipment, and at level 10, their leveled lists give them the feared 20mm Flak, but even with a lot better weaponry compared to vanilla, they just can't match the organized assault of the Talons. I might have to touch the templates themselves to give them a bit more speed and/or weaponskill or *gasp* more HP :P

 

Then we come to the problem with BoS and Enclave... The BoS on MQ1 do have their own combat style, every monster in the wastes has their own combat style, but the only two big ORGANIZED groups in the wastes use the DEFAULT combat style... That just feels wrong. I can not copy the Talon CS to the default, as after that every wastelander would fight like military. A bit annoying, but fixable.

 

So there are my observations (rant ;) on FO3 combat :)

 

I will continue working on it though :)

 

Any comments? Opinions? (No flames though please)

[Alastair91]

Hello there, what you're doing is pretty cool. Can't wait for the release. Just wondering if you've tried this mod before?

 

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=6492

 

Are you making a better version of this?

[GrandsonOfSam]

I did test all mods that touch Combat and/or Sneaking, but didn't find one that was exactly what I myself wanted. Many good mods out there, and Combat Enhanced Tactics was on my Load Order for a long time :)

 

I started my mod as a small tweak to sneaking, but realized that combat is so tied up with sneaking, that I needed to do changes at that side too... After tweaking the game settings a bit, I realized I need to edit the Combat Styles, and also that one set of settings won't be enough to cover all of the sneaking situations. So now the small tweak has bloated into a big overhaul, which I have been playtesting and tweaking the last two weeks.

 

The way I see combat and sneaking, is that it needs to be realistic enough for immersion purposes, but it's still a game, and the purpose of playing is to have fun. So I try very hard to keep the difficulty as close to vanilla as possible, and make Actors smarter and the game more realistic at the same time. These two are way harder to combine than it would appear at first. That's the reason I have spent a huge amount of time on the mod, and still haven't released it even into a beta test.

 

I do have some original ideas of my own in the mod, and some old ideas done my way, and ofcourse I have checked every mod that affects either sneaking or combat or both. Funny thing is, that atleast Arwen has come to the same conclusion at the same time as me, that night, day and interiors need their own settings :) It was actually nice to see that she had luckily gone a bit different route than I had, so my mod will still have a purpose. I have military background, so I try to use my knowledge in the mod too, but still try to keep the game as a game. As a RPG, it is the skills and attributes of the character that should decide how well you fare in combat, not the player using the mouse and keyboard :)

 

There are some features that I probably won't keep in the mod, which although realistic, also affect the game flow, which in FO3 is one of the best ones I have seen in any RPG. One of them is slowing strafing speed and accuracy while strafing on the player and enemies drastically.

 

The mod will have FOOK2 and WMK as requirements, as I won't play FO3 without them, and they are a permanent part of my load order. At the moment the mod also has the TR4F2 (Tracer Revamp 4 FOOK2) as a master, because I like the tracer and bulletspeed revamp on it. I don't know which of them will be requirements in the final version.

 

My posts tend to get very long :)

[GrandsonOfSam]

After having to resort to using VATS five times yesterday on the Talon and Raider ambushes, I am starting to feel that I should redo how VATS works too... I haven't used it that much as it's more like a triviality in this game than a really useful option in fights. I can snipe with wobbling sights at a moving target from 1000 meters, but in vats 50 meters mean 70% chance max, so it definately needs some work. The way vats is a godmode now is a bit of a weird desicion too, as there was the aim function in the previous Fallouts which was made very well, and was actually very useful.

 

On the topic though:

I did some tweaking on the Super Mutants again, and got them to a somewhat working order. Now 2 Brutes or Masters at 50 meters at level 10 means a real fight even on very easy (which I use for testing).

 

The remaining problem is the Default Combat Style... To make BoS, Enclave and Outcasts good enough to actually feel like military in fights means that the NPC:s will fight the same way (except Followers which have their own CS for ranged and melee). I would not want to resort into "explaining" the reason the 3 groups using Power Armor are so bad in combat, or on the other hand overbuffing the effectiveness of the common folk in combat. So maybe I will have to make 3 new combatstyles and assign them to every BoS, Enclave and Outcast trooper, which is a lot of work, and WILL cause conflicts. Kindof a stalemate situation :D

[Starsickle]

Thanks for the post.

 

Combat AI in Fallout is lacking a lot, and I like any improvement to it. (especially juxtaposed with the combat tactics mod, which doesn't do much...)

 

-Super mutants are a special case for me, since they tend to just shoot like brick walls and advance into very predictable lines for me to mow down.

-Mowing everything down is a decent strategy throughout the game. I really wish they'd learn to throw grenades well.

-Enclave have their armor, and honestly they otherwise are not much different. The Talons tend not to have plans and just attack.

-Raiders also are not very smart.

 

A couple reasons I can think of:

 

1 - coordination. There's not a whole lot in the way of coordination, and everyone tends to perform the same way, no one really splits up or sneaks around. I like guys that sneak around.

 

2- Weapon choices - because enemies can only have so many weapons ala Mutants, their behavior is limited.

 

3- Use your tools wisely - Grenades should be used a little more smartly by NPCs. I'd give them more and hope they try to use them to get me out of hiding - you know, wiating ot mow them down as they come around the corner.

 

 

and:

 

4- Jumping. NPCs should be able to jump. THAT'D make me poo myself.

[GrandsonOfSam]

I tend to think of the enemies from Fallout 1 and 2 as the basis when I adjust the combat settings, so raiders had the biggest overhaul. A cheap way of explaining the stupid AI on Enclave, BoS and Outcasts is, that they use mostly Power Armor, thus not needing that much tactics. Edit: The armor doesn't help though if the opponent has his/her/it's Combat Style modified. Good example was a single raider who killed an Outcast 2 men patrol wearing power armors alone with an assault rifle. This was when I hadn't tweaked the default Style yet.

 

Super Mutants are a hard rock to crack when it comes to tactics, as they move slower than other humanoids. One thing that needs correcting is the Hunting Rifle in their leveled lists... Firstly they have very low combat skill, so they miss a LOT, secondly no REAL Super Mutant would use that puny weapon to shoot things, it would rather hit things with it :D Even an Assault Rifle is on the edge of looking funny in their hands. Or sad. :D

 

1. Sneaking enemies is one thing I really would like to implement to my mod, but it will be a lot of work to get the enemies sneak...

 

2. For the weapons, FOOK2 addresses that issue quite well, especially compared to vanilla game. The way they act is not tied to the weapon they use though, as a well thought Combat Style can easily correct this.

 

3. I don't know if it's FOOK2 or my tweaks, but the enemies do use their grenades on me, not all the time, but often enough. FOOK2 also adds grenades to the enemies inventories, so they are there to be used.

 

4. Jumping enemies is something I myself won't even try... The routefinding is hardcoded, so getting them to jump over obstacles instead of running around it would be very hard to implement. Not impossible, just very hard.

[Starsickle]

Why not make a weapon that the muties WOULD use in ranged that suits their style?

 

Mutie cannon?

 

Mutie punch?

 

I meant as in tactical use of grenades. When you're hiding, they should use them. They nearly always use them before rushing in when you're in an open area.

[Agnot2006]

There should also be a way to stop heavy weapons NPC’s from using them at point blank rang and killing themselves. Particularly missile armed ones. Many times I watched Talons attack an enemy at close range and the missile user in the group will keep on shooting till every one is either dead or seriously disabled. This is also true with Mutants and Enclave. Everyone except the Mutants seem to have alternative weapons in there inventories, but don’t use them until their heavy one is out of ammo. Is there a way of making them switch to a less destructive option when at close range? Or at least stop firing when close?

[GrandsonOfSam]

Sorry for taking so long to ansever, as I have been ill with high fever.

 

The point blank range problem is something that comes from the Combat Styles, and from the base Responsibility setting of the Actor. On the Combat Styles' part I have had a lot of thought on it, and adjusted the few settings there in my mod to what the groups would do if they acted like they "should". So for example Talons avoid blasting other Talons or their allies, but don't really care about innocents. Raiders care only about themselves not being getting hit in the blast. Super Mutants are tough and shrug the "small hits" off as they can take damage anyway, so they fire even if they get hit themselves. This could be easily changed with one tick in a tickbox.

 

It is a balance issue, and probably everyone has their own opinions of what is balance. I tend to think about the enemies training in combat and "combat IQ" as a basis of how they act in situations.

 

I base my thoughts of the enemies on what they were in the previous two Fallout games, as vanilla in Fallout 3 they all act very much the same. Raiders is the biggest problem actually... In vanilla and in Fallout 3 world, they act more like psychopaths high with Jet, when in the previous games they were actually something to fear especially in the early game. So now they usually coordinate their attacks, but don't care if they throw the molotov coctail at their fellow Raider accidentally, and when they see the situation is getting tough, they flee leaving their fellows to die.

 

All in all, there is a lot one can do to spice up the game just by editing the Combat Styles, but for complete control, the NPC:s and Creatures would need to be edited too. Then again to make them use real life tactics, it would need some serious scripting, which would probably lag the game in bigger fights. Some of the effects can be simulated by adding more Combat Styles, so for example ones with sniper rifles would stay way back in cover while others advance, and some try to flank. That would make the game a lot harder though. :)

[phatpaid0x]

Awesome post. I love what your doing. sadly tho I can't use fook2 as the moment I install it...even in a fresh non-modded game my game becomes instantly unstable and crashes whenever i try to change areas. as someone who is unable to use fook2 reading you MUST use fook2 and mwk i was disapointed. I have no interest in mwk and I can't use fook2. meaning i am automatically left out of the loop. I'm sure there are others who dont want to be forced to use those mods for better gunfights. I hope you take this into consideration as I too am looking for a mod that fixes gunfights and battles but dont want to be tied to mods I cant use or have no interest in.