The Right to Bear Arms

[Balagor]

 

so guns for the people doesn't means at all more democratic governments.

 

I can agree with that. Nor do I believe it´s a human right to bear arms, since I believe it´s a human right to live in peace. And guns disturb that peace. On the other hand, I also have a problem defending myself, should I be attacked by armed robbers. If only I knew that police would come and help 2 minutes after I call them, I could probably do with just lock myself up in a secured room, but they do not. So here is my paradox. I am a peacefull man, I do not like guns, I do not believe it is a right to carry them, and yet I am in need to defend myself because of what happends around me.

[DarkeWolf]

Ok, I've gotta jump in on this one. And yeah...I'm coming in late.

 

Thats an unfair assessment, saying that because the US has the most guns, it has the highest gun crime rate. I have got to say that our NON-firearm violent crime rate far exceeds our firearm-related rates.

 

But yes, of course ours is the highest. Because we have the most of them. Let me put this into other terms. lets say that apple Ipods have the highest failure rate in the portable mp3 industry. Why? Is it because they are made worse than some little nicke and dime manufacturer? No, its the law of averages. Apple sold over 50 MILLION of these devices last year. STATISTICALLY speaking that gives them a much higher percentage of units that can fail.

 

First rule of the the truth. Never quote or trust statistics. Statistics and numbers can be, and have been, manipulated to make anything look like the truth.

 

And no, dont start up about ipods. I only used them as a theoretical example, as everybody knows what they are, and because they sell so many of them.

 

 

The problem isnt guns. Its society, its people.

A gun kills NOBODY. A bullet, kills NOBODY. A firearm and ammunition are nothing more than tools. Its the people, that are responsible for anybody that is hurt or killed, by a firearm, or a bullet.

And here in USA, we're suffering a huge moral decay. Our people just dont care as much as they used to. Morality is going down the crapper. Take away our guns? We'll just kill each other with something else. Sad, but there it is.

[Balagor]

@DarkeWolf

A good point Woolf. Morality is the problem here, and not the merchandise and statistics.

 

In DK we have less crimes than Texas (statistics)

we also have less guns per citizen (statistics)

 

Conclusion: Less guns = less crimes

 

In Texas they catch more buglars on crimescene that in DK

 

Conclusion: More guns= less crimes

 

Just to show that you are absolutely right about statistics :biggrin:

[ginnyfizz]

 

Strict gun control works in most of the countries it exists, for the simple reason than less guns = less gun use. But the problem with guns is mostly an educational one, a well educated society will do a good use of rights, a bad one not. In UK the problem is not about guns at all. US, with the most open gun control in occident, have the worst violent with guns crime rate.

 

And what i meant with the word "democracy" it`s that it's not needed an "armed" population to mantain the government in democratic ways. Most european countries are way more democratic than the "patriot" or "rico" US laws, so guns for the people doesn't means at all more democratic governments.

 

Yes there IS a huge problem with gun crime in the UK, despite our gun controls. Ask anyone who lives in the nearest large city to my home, Shottingham..err sorry, Nottingham. Strict gun controls will never stop the determined criminal or terrorist. And no amount of education and social programmes will change it, nor will they encourage people to think more democratically and about other folks rights. I think sometimes Europeans have a very rose colored view of the state of democracy in Europe and can probably seem rather patronising to the eyes of a citizen of the US. Well, with the advance of the European super state we really have no cause to sit on our democratic laurels. (BUT, there is another thread about THAT!I) have mentioned in my previous posts, that coupled with the fact that in Britain a thousand years of democracy has gone down the pan, and the inability or unwillingness of the police to do a great deal to defend the people, suddenly the right to bear arms sounds a good idea!

[DarkeWolf]

@DarkeWolf

A good point Woolf. Morality is the problem here, and not the merchandise and statistics.

 

In DK we have less crimes than Texas (statistics)

we also have less guns per citizen (statistics)

 

Conclusion: Less guns = less crimes

 

In Texas they catch more buglars on crimescene that in DK

 

Conclusion: More guns= less crimes

 

Just to show that you are absolutely right about statistics :biggrin:

 

 

Ok, Bal- lets throw a monkey wrench into the statistics, just as a LOL. Is that including the illegal non-citizen population of texas? If so/not it's gonna throw the stats about 20-30% either way.

 

The statistics I want to see, would be based off of Colorado. Not texas. There's where the TRUE affect is. Colorado has some of the most liberal gun laws in the country. That would be the truth about what gun laws work and which don't. Best example would be the "Make my day law." If they on your property, you can justifiably shoot them. Dont have to give a warning, dont have to prove that your life is in danger, just...bang. Whats the level of domestic violence and burglary in CO?

 

But yeah, when it comes down to it, its people. I could just as easily commit vehicular homicide than go out and buy a gun. Heck, I've already got a car. (tho yeah, I also own 5 guns, lol)

 

We had an episode on the news a few weeks back about a thwarted burglary. The man broke into a man's apartment, the victim (TRUE VIc, not the man that was injured. the vic of the CRIME) defended his property with a SAMURAI SWORD and put the criminal into intensive care by stabbing him twice.

I have yet to hear any fanatics screaming about taking cheap blades off the market.

[Balagor]

Best example would be the "Make my day law." If they on your property, you can justifiably shoot them. Dont have to give a warning, dont have to prove that your life is in danger, just...bang. Whats the level of domestic violence and burglary in CO?

 

Wow, and I as a stormchaser have a dream about going to US one day. Colorado being a good spot for chasing thunderstorms. I better bring a good map that shows what´s private and whats public. :sick:

[Christine777]

Oh.. Hi to both of you.. I’m glad we three meet here. (Giving pause to image section in DAO)

 

I do too agree. Morality is a big factor here.

But I think it also has something to do with the balance of civilian weapons possession in the country too. In our case, most of the people are aware that bandits are just lurking nearby since law enforcement is very weak. And these criminals are well armed, from improvised home-made shotgun/pistols to high caliber long barrel weapons such as M16s or M14s. As a result, many of us, remote town residence acquire weapons either taking it legally of illegally (most of the case). At present we are under strict gun-ban rule, due to a coming National Election. But even with this strictest arm rule for the moment people are all the more readying their weapons and keep it at home – to make them safe against this Commission on Election Gun-Ban. Because we all knew that bandits are taking this gun-ban as an opportunity in advantage to them. This is from our experience already – and damn it is deeming right, for just last month until present bandit attacks are rampant already. Allow me to post a situation: Just last week, two public utility vehicles were hijacked just 3 kms from our Village (Barangay) and passengers are being robbed. First attack was Sunday last week, followed by that amusing Tuesday event. I find it amusing because during that hijack, all 2 bandits are both shut dead by a passenger happen to bring his 45 caliber pistol. And guess what, all the passengers are thanking their hero. Eventually the police knew the indecent but did not bother to hunt the killer. – Self explanatory, I supposed. The police would even be thanking that fellow, I presume. And as a matter of fact, if they (the police) are being called to respond to the place of incident surely they will not comply. Not because they are cowards, but because it takes two hours for them to reach the area and they will be risking their lives for nothing if they do. The last time I remember the police step their foot in our town was two months ago. When they give a symposium to all residence on how to defend themselves against robbers, hold uppers, hijackers, etc..

Sadly there are only three (as far as I know) among us here who has access to the internet. If all these residence are in this forum – this thread would be swarming with YES – to the right to bear arms argument, I supposed.

We need these weapons to balance ourselves on the real situation. And these weapons are oftentimes the ones giving those bandits pause or something to think about before they strike.

[Balagor]

I think that besides morale, the whole issue also has to do with culture. I can not imagine the same conditions in DK as you describe in your village @Christine. Either can I imagine that I should be shooting at who ever cross my property, without warning.

If such conditiontions occur here in DK, I see only a increase of weapon use. Never the less, I still want to be able to defend myself to a certain degree.

[Christine777]

Added to morality and culture (your claim), I think our Government has something to do also. We have very weak law enforcement capability here. This perhaps add to condition that civilian possession of weapons (in our case) for dire need of self defense are presumed valid.

[Balagor]

And perhaps one last aspect; pouvertry. Why do people steal, murder, plunder at all. I know this is not all of it, but biased social welfare plays a large role too. And know I am way off topic, I know, and maybe not, because the issues go together hand in hand.