"NMM can't install this mod" Jargon

[Haikem]

Alright, I don't know who birthed the idea, nor the people who listened, but NMM can definitely install any* mod given the right ModuleConfig.xml. Usually the people who say this follow up by saying that you have to just extract the archive into Oblivion's Data folder, but that's exactly what NMM does when it "installs" a mod. Installing is way to fancy of a word for what it does. It literally jump dumps the contents of an archive into the same directly you would've manually dropped it into.

A couple of examples are Blockhead and Oblivion XP Update. Starting off with Blockhead, well I don't really know what to say. You can google the terms NMM and Blockhead and you'll find plenty of forums posts saying that you just can't install it with NMM. You can also find plenty of people saying the same in the mod's file dicussion section. Well, I installed it using NMM along with OCOv2 and I never had any problems. No "Blockhead isn't installed" textures were plastered to my face, and no CTDs happened.

Now Oblivion XP was a little different in the fact that you can pick from 5 different UI that you have, vanilla or 4 mods. So with a simple .xml file put into a fomod directory in the mod's main directory that took about 5 minutes to write along with deleting the config file inside of obmm conversion data directory and it worked just fine. It installed the same way OBMM would install, and no issues were had. Loading into to game displayed the "Oblivion XP loaded" on the top left, and I was able to level up without a CTD. In this particular mod's discussion thread about every page there will be someone saying you just can't just NMM to install it.

So what's the deal? Did NMM suddenly start working for these mods and no one noticed, or was this never a problem to begin with and misinformed people spread the word?

[DrakeTheDragon]

I think the problem is rather that only You and a very limited handful of other people possesses the skills required to create such a "ModuleConfig.xml" from scratch.

The other 99% simply can't be bothered and expect it to "just work" when they click that button. This, however, simply isn't the case.

 

I for one am of the same belief, no, I definitely know even, that every Oblivion mod, well apart from the ones requiring an install scope the NMM can't provide technically, very well can be installed via the NMM, as long as "I" convert it into an installable package myself first. As a matter of fact, by now every single mod I installed has been converted by your's truly to be manageable by the NMM just like I did with OBMM and BAIN in the past.

 

I will, however, never expect anybody else to know what needs to be done or to possess the skills it takes to do so. I can even try to 'explain' it to some, but so far this wasn't exactly fruitful up to now.

 

You must not forget they basically need to create an installation process of their own design, all steps, variants, options and everything laid out by themselves and then more or less 'programmed' in this XML language stuff. I know it's not programming as much as XML isn't a language, but you know what I mean. It's logic, it's structuring, it's an 'algorithm' for sure. I'm used to designing program workflows and algorithms from Computer Science lessons in school and my courses at university, I'm doing that stuff for a living, after all, working as a programmer. Mod users in general, however, the other 99% that is, don't.

 

So I keep telling people complaining about things crashing or files not ending up where they're supposed to in the comments of those mods that as a matter of fact the NMM simply can't be used to install these mods "the way they're structured as of now". Well, I usually go into more detail, explaining the if's and why's, how's and but's... but most readers are only bored by it anyways.

 

When they don't know what to do when files ended up at the wrong locations, or most times can't even realize that is the case and the reason for their issues, have no slightest idea of how Oblivion and mods are structured or need to be in order to work, and can't even be bothered to investigate and find out for themselves, it's a pretty safe bet they will also never understand when I told them what to do in order to make it work, or my personal favorite among them, just can't be bothered to pay attention to begin with.

 

So for those types, no, sorry, it just can't be installed with the NMM for now, and likely never will.

 

It isn't just "jargon", it's a "fact".

[Haikem]

I see what you're saying, but it isn't necessarily the same thing I'm talking about. You're referring to the inability to install with NMM as a literal, and when people are replied to about a problem with installing with NMM they are told that you can't install this exact download unmodified using NMM. However, in some specific cases, more particularly Blockhead, I see people say something along the lines of "there is no way you can this install properly with NMM". When I read that I basically read it as it's impossible to make a script that NMM can use to install it properly. Now, in the case of Blockhead I'm really confused because you don't really need a script in the first place and it will install fine. You literally just drop some plugins in the OBSE folder located in the Data directory, and well, it works.

Maybe I am just misinterpreting these people's words. They might really just want a short explanation for less technically savvy people so they don't have to waste too much time, who knows, but it frustrates me that NMM gets so much flak because they're making it look like it's a garbage program that can't install 50% of Oblivion mods. I don't know, I guess it's not something that can be argued since it's a matter of interpreting what someone means by "can't be done", but thanks for reminding me that I might've just overthought what people mean by what they say.

Onto .xml though, I never really have done any before, but it doesn't take a genious to find an .xml install script and study the structure. Granted I am a CS major and know my fair share of programming, but I really don't think any experience is needed for this. Maybe a little bit of dedication and a little less laziness, but there is no finesse to it.

 

I've also taken it upon myself to write up some scripts for NMM for the mods that I use. For some mods in particular it wasn't really hard because they have a sctipt .txt in the omod conversion files and all you really do is copy the logic. It was actually kind of fun, but that's probably progamming withdrawal symptom since my summer term just ended. One thing I wasn't able to do was .ini tweaks. Really couldn't be bothered to figure out if it's possible and if so, how to do it.

And a couple of questions for you since you know your stuff. Can you nest install steps inside .xml scripts? Since all I did really was copy the structure of some random Skyrim mod I found, I don't really understand how it works (except that having a "&" anywhere breaks it completely). Because one mod in particular was a pain to make without using nested logic. You have to make a handful on condition flags along with a heap of install steps to complement. Also is there a way to edit .ini files using .xml? I didn't really bother since... well actually I'm just lazy, I'll go google it now.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Haikem

[DrakeTheDragon]

I also don't know if it even can modify INI settings technically.

And as for the nesting, well, I'm not quite sure about that one either.

 

I learned this stuff myself just from this one simple guide I found when searching for "fomod" on the file sites one day:

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/44914/?

So my actual knowledge about all the details is actually rather limited still.

 

You'd be surprised how many people are out there to whom what's absolutely logical and straight-forward to us CS guys is actually a total myth not much less complicated than rocket-science or particle physics, and even after we showed them how to write such a thing themselves step-by-step it's still just Hieroglyphs representing a Greek translation from Kanji letters at best and everything else but reproducible for them.

 

I've run afoul of that self-delusion myself quite some times already, underestimating my own skill set by always thinking it really wasn't anything special and certainly everybody could do the same, while in fact, they can't.

Other people's talents lie elsewhere, in areas I can't even remotely grasp this time around. While they won't ever have the slightest clue of the things which are like a self-explanatory part of nature to me.

Ever since I stopped expecting the same knowledge I possess from others as well things have become way less complicated to explain and teach to others as well.

[bben46]

Mod users are not technically inclined. That was the reason for NMM in the first place - too many just could not handle the difficulty level of a manual install - They are not stupid. They just don't know, and don't want to take the time to learn. They just want to play the game with mods. Not spend their time playing with the mods to get them to install.

 

As for Oblivion, I don't recommend using NMM with it at all - there are just too many mods that don't work with it - but do work very well if you use OBMM or Wrye Bash to install them. This is not a failing with NMM, but because these mods were made long before NMM existed and were intended for a manual install by people who did know something about computers and file structure.