Communism v. Socialism v. Capitalism v. Feudalism

[ginnyfizz]

So, Grannywils, are you trying to say you didn't actually say those things? They are not taken out of context. You actually said them. You said that there are those who don't have a chance in hell of dragging themselves out of the mire. My point is, there is ALWAYS hope, I spend my working day trying to convince people of that, and if my rellies could do it with all the disadvantages they had, then so can my customers. Nor did I ever say that everyone starts off the same, so don't put words into my mouth.

 

Stop misconstruing what I said and don't just conjecture. Why on earth you make such a baffling remarks as;-

 

"If you don't think that the welfare system was deliberately created to keep poor people poor, you need to think again."

When the whole point of the work that I do is based precisely on my knowledge of that fact, and that it was created by the Socialists to create a client base who would keep on voting for them. I want to help my customers to break that cycle of dependency, and I do that by convincing them that they have the ability to do something, that they deserve better.

 

And this

 

"If you don't think drugs were originally being distributed in the poorer communities practically for free, you are just drinking the Kool Aid"

Good God. Probably twenty five percent of my customers are drug addicts who I have to bundle off to rehab before I can present them to an employer. They lurch into meetings stoned off their heads. So I am only too well aware of the fact that drugs will be pushed out cheaply to get 'em hooked. And that some of them will be hookering to pay for them when they start to get expensive, once they are hooked.

 

And of course you never said "So, proletariat or no proletariat, we are left having to depend on the people with the power (i.e. the money) often provided through the efforts of the workers (without the power).". The wicked capitalists are of course providing those workers with their jobs. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

[myrmaad]

The "wicked" capitalists. Now who's putting words places?

 

Come on. I like hybrids myself.

[grannywils]

So, Grannywils, are you trying to say you didn't actually say those things? They are not taken out of context. You actually said them. You said that there are those who don't have a chance in hell of dragging themselves out of the mire. My point is, there is ALWAYS hope, I spend my working day trying to convince people of that, and if my rellies could do it with all the disadvantages they had, then so can my customers. Nor did I ever say that everyone starts off the same, so don't put words into my mouth.

 

Stop misconstruing what I said and don't just conjecture. Why on earth you make such a baffling remarks as;-

 

"If you don't think that the welfare system was deliberately created to keep poor people poor, you need to think again."

When the whole point of the work that I do is based precisely on my knowledge of that fact, and that it was created by the Socialists to create a client base who would keep on voting for them. I want to help my customers to break that cycle of dependency, and I do that by convincing them that they have the ability to do something, that they deserve better.

 

And this

 

"If you don't think drugs were originally being distributed in the poorer communities practically for free, you are just drinking the Kool Aid"

Good God. Probably twenty five percent of my customers are drug addicts who I have to bundle off to rehab before I can present them to an employer. They lurch into meetings stoned off their heads. So I am only too well aware of the fact that drugs will be pushed out cheaply to get 'em hooked. And that some of them will be hookering to pay for them when they start to get expensive, once they are hooked.

 

And of course you never said "So, proletariat or no proletariat, we are left having to depend on the people with the power (i.e. the money) often provided through the efforts of the workers (without the power).". The wicked capitalists are of course providing those workers with their jobs. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

 

No, I was not trying to say that I had not said those things. I was trying to say that I had said other things as well, which you seemed to have chosen to ignore. I disagree strongly that welfare was created by Socialists, since they have never been in power in this particular country. And since I have not put any words in your mouth, please stop putting them and/or taking them out of mine. i.e. your final chapter. Without the working people (whatever label you give them) of this nation or any other, the non-working people and the "wicked capitalists" (your term, not mine), would not be putting bread on their tables.

 

The odd thing about this whole discussion is that although I'm sure you and I would disagree politically on most everything, I do not think we really disagree entirely on this particular subject. I'm not sure exactly what work you do, but I have the feeling that it has left you a bit jaded. You apparently work with some of the less fortunate members of society. I grew up in some places with a lot of the same types of people you are probably dealing with today, and I have a lot more familiarty with a whole spectrum of humanity than some of us would ever want to encounter. The difference appears to be that it has given me quite a broad awareness of how people come to develop the attitudes and personalities and personality defects, and characters and character defects that exist among us. It probably accounts for why I have a tendency to look into the individual person rather than the group as a whole. It is probably why I have a real difficulty with labels and accusations placed on whole groups, when I know that we are all human, and groups no matter how large are comprised of single individuals.

 

I am no Pollyanna. And I know we are all flawed. But I also know that we are all human and deserving, if necessary, of (apparently) the kind of work that you do, without disrespect or lack of kindness. Now, just to be clear, I have not once said nor implied that you personally were guilty of any of the above. But there does sometimes exist in this world an attitude that those seeking help of any kind are less worthy individuals than those out there knocking down doors to get jobs that just might or might not be there for them on that given day.

[ginnyfizz]

That's not putting words into anyone's mouth, Myrmaad. It's a little bit of Brit irony.

 

Grannywils, I have not chosen to ignore most of what you have said, there was just rather too much of it to quote the whole lot. So you

 

"disagree strongly that welfare was created by Socialists, since they have never been in power in this particular country."

 

GOOD GRIEF! Is this or is this not an international forum? Some of us actually don't live in the United States and have had the great misfortune of suffering repeated periods of Socialist government. We have welfare in the United Kingdom, and it was created by a Labour Government, with the Welfare State and the public sector being repeatedly bloated by successive Labour Governments in order to create said clients. It's no coincidence that the public sector unions are very militant and as red as the proverbial baboons...aherm...And now you have a President who shows every sign of being a Socialist, so you may not be entirely correct there.

 

"I'm not sure exactly what work you do, but I have the feeling that it has left you a bit jaded. You apparently work with some of the less fortunate members of society. I grew up in some places with a lot of the same types of people you are probably dealing with today, and I have a lot more familiarty with a whole spectrum of humanity than some of us would ever want to encounter. The difference appears to be that it has given me quite a broad awareness of how people come to develop the attitudes and personalities and personality defects, and characters and character defects that exist among us. It probably accounts for why I have a tendency to look into the individual person rather than the group as a whole. It is probably why I have a real difficulty with labels and accusations placed on whole groups, when I know that we are all human, and groups no matter how large are comprised of single individuals. "

 

Then try reading my posts properly and you'll discover exactly what work I do . That particular paragraph that I just quoted I find particularly ironic, since I was actually born and raised and still live in a rough, tough former mining area, among the people I work with now. It's a former mining area grace of the militant Left Wing attitudes of the mineworkers union who went on strike for a year to protest against the closure of some nonviable pits and ended up with virtually the whole lot getting closed as, after that length of time, they too had become nonviable. Left me a bit jaded indeed, a rather bizarre suggestion if ever I heard one. It isn't possible to do the job that I do without a huge dollop of optimism and enthusiasm. Or without a massive degree of understanding of what makes people tick. And you also need a good counterbalance of scepticism and the ability to spot a scammer.

 

Believe it or not, that "Why should I work ..." scenario that I gave several posts back was a virtually verbatim quote from a customer I interviewed the other week. Except I couldn't quote the four letter word that he used as it is quite rightly banned on this forum. Yes, I am afraid some of them do give forth that attitude, and see nothing wrong at all in living it up courtesy of the taxpayer. One of the most important sections of our training is the In Work Better Off calculation to counter the common refrain of "I'm better off on the dole".

 

"But there does sometimes exist in this world an attitude that those seeking help of any kind are less worthy individuals than those out there knocking down doors to get jobs that just might or might not be there for them on that given day."

 

No, but if they refuse to look for work whilst claiming Job Seekers Allowance (welfare) - they should expect some kind of sanction. Every time they sign on for their benefit, they declare that they are actively seeking work.

 

Socialism is creating this kind of dependency culture and actually depriving people of their dignity.

[grannywils]

No, I was not trying to say that I had not said those things. I was trying to say that I had said other things as well, which you seemed to have chosen to ignore. I disagree strongly that welfare was created by Socialists, since they have never been in power in this particular country. And since I have not put any words in your mouth, please stop putting them and/or taking them out of mine. i.e. your final chapter. Without the working people (whatever label you give them) of this nation or any other, the non-working people and the "wicked capitalists" (your term, not mine), would not be putting bread on their tables.

 

The odd thing about this whole discussion is that although I'm sure you and I would disagree politically on most everything, I do not think we really disagree entirely on this particular subject. I'm not sure exactly what work you do, but I have the feeling that it has left you a bit jaded. You apparently work with some of the less fortunate members of society. I grew up in some places with a lot of the same types of people you are probably dealing with today, and I have a lot more familiarty with a whole spectrum of humanity than some of us would ever want to encounter. The difference appears to be that it has given me quite a broad awareness of how people come to develop the attitudes and personalities and personality defects, and characters and character defects that exist among us. It probably accounts for why I have a tendency to look into the individual person rather than the group as a whole. It is probably why I have a real difficulty with labels and accusations placed on whole groups, when I know that we are all human, and groups no matter how large are comprised of single individuals.

 

I am no Pollyanna. And I know we are all flawed. But I also know that we are all human and deserving, if necessary, of (apparently) the kind of work that you do, without disrespect or lack of kindness. Now, just to be clear, I have not once said nor implied that you personally were guilty of any of the above. But there does sometimes exist in this world an attitude that those seeking help of any kind are less worthy individuals than those out there knocking down doors to get jobs that just might or might not be there for them on that given day.

 

[Kendo 2]

:laugh: The proletariat is paying the bills now, actually.

 

 

No it isn't.

[myrmaad]

So your position is the working class isn't paying the bills.

[grannywils]

That's not putting words into anyone's mouth, Myrmaad. It's a little bit of Brit irony.

 

Grannywils, I have not chosen to ignore most of what you have said, there was just rather too much of it to quote the whole lot. So you

 

"disagree strongly that welfare was created by Socialists, since they have never been in power in this particular country."

 

GOOD GRIEF! Is this or is this not an international forum? Some of us actually don't live in the United States and have had the great misfortune of suffering repeated periods of Socialist government. We have welfare in the United Kingdom, and it was created by a Labour Government, with the Welfare State and the public sector being repeatedly bloated by successive Labour Governments in order to create said clients. It's no coincidence that the public sector unions are very militant and as red as the proverbial baboons...aherm...And now you have a President who shows every sign of being a Socialist, so you may not be entirely correct there. I apologize. I misread something and thought at that moment that you were speaking of the U.S. I do know that this is an international forum and should have been more sensitive to same.

 

"I'm not sure exactly what work you do, but I have the feeling that it has left you a bit jaded. You apparently work with some of the less fortunate members of society. I grew up in some places with a lot of the same types of people you are probably dealing with today, and I have a lot more familiarty with a whole spectrum of humanity than some of us would ever want to encounter. The difference appears to be that it has given me quite a broad awareness of how people come to develop the attitudes and personalities and personality defects, and characters and character defects that exist among us. It probably accounts for why I have a tendency to look into the individual person rather than the group as a whole. It is probably why I have a real difficulty with labels and accusations placed on whole groups, when I know that we are all human, and groups no matter how large are comprised of single individuals. "

 

Then try reading my posts properly and you'll discover exactly what work I do . That particular paragraph that I just quoted I find particularly ironic, since I was actually born and raised and still live in a rough, tough former mining area, among the people I work with now. It's a former mining area grace of the militant Left Wing attitudes of the mineworkers union who went on strike for a year to protest against the closure of some nonviable pits and ended up with virtually the whole lot getting closed as, after that length of time, they too had become nonviable. Left me a bit jaded indeed, a rather bizarre suggestion if ever I heard one. It isn't possible to do the job that I do without a huge dollop of optimism and enthusiasm. Or without a massive degree of understanding of what makes people tick. And you also need a good counterbalance of scepticism and the ability to spot a scammer. I have read this post properly. I have never read anything else of yours or even heard of you before. I will certainly look for other posts of yours in future. I don't know why you think it is bizzare for me to think you would become jaded under the circumstances you have described. Where you and I do and will probably always differ is in your need to lable the perpetrators of this disgraceful protest as "militant Left Wing". I don't know the facts or the area and would most likely agree with you that the pits were nonviable. I worry a lot about miners and their plight, in this counry too . I'm sure that you have the necessary requirement with regard to knowledge of what makes people tick as well as the sceptism and ability to spot a scammer. You sound a lot like me in that regard.

Believe it or not, that "Why should I work ..." scenario that I gave several posts back was a virtually verbatim quote from a customer I interviewed the other week. Except I couldn't quote the four letter word that he used as it is quite rightly banned on this forum. Yes, I am afraid some of them do give forth that attitude, and see nothing wrong at all in living it up courtesy of the taxpayer. One of the most important sections of our training is the In Work Better Off calculation to counter the common refrain of "I'm better off on the dole". I absolutely believed what you said here, and don't believe I questioned it for a moment. I've seen it in action. Do you ever get people who do want to work or who have tried and failed to get work?

"But there does sometimes exist in this world an attitude that those seeking help of any kind are less worthy individuals than those out there knocking down doors to get jobs that just might or might not be there for them on that given day."

 

No, but if they refuse to look for work whilst claiming Job Seekers Allowance (welfare) - they should expect some kind of sanction. Every time they sign on for their benefit, they declare that they are actively seeking work. I didn't quite understand this last part. Were you disavowing what I said in the previous sentence, or just adding that those who do not pull their weight should not expect special treatment?

Socialism is creating this kind of dependency culture and actually depriving people of their dignity.

Again, I cannot agree with the labels, but I do agree that giving handouts with no expectation of some return does indeed rob people of their dignaty. I am opposed to welfare, by the way. But I do believe that there are circumstances under which people do need a helping hand and should receive it.

 

[Kendo 2]

So your position is the working class isn't paying the bills.

 

My position is Pinko Commies perpetrate the lie that they bear the mill stone when IN FACT the wealthy are the ones paying the bills. 20% of the population pays 80% of the taxes. That is FACT. But for Marx to be right there MUST be an enemy, usually the wealthy or an ethnic minority.

[Maxwell the Fool]

Grannywils, I must disagree with you vehemently. We have had Socialists in power in the US, and they did give us Welfare. FDR. Look at his policies, then look at the philosophy of socialism and tell me that he didn't conform to it. Look at the new deal. What did it do? It taxed people in order to pay the poor. Look at the second new deal. What did it do? It taxed people in order to pay the poor. Am I missing something here? Is this not textbook redistribution of wealth?

 

Not only was he a socialist, but so were TR and Woodrow Wilson. Woodrow Wilson passed several laws in the favor of poor farmers, some of them including just flat handouts. TR was the inventor of the "Bully Pulpit," which is the idea that the president is the supreme authority, and stands above even the constitution. He passed many laws which directly overstepped the bounds of government's power (even utilizing a broad constitutional view, which takes full advantage of Article One, Section Eight). He is famously quoted as having said, "What's the Constitution between friends?"

 

The TR facts come not from me, but it's from my current Professor of history (J. Lee Thompson) who is currently working on his second book about Roosevelt and also has a fairly high opinion of the man despite his Constitutional ingression.