Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[GogoMoGT]

What I've noticed in my last few playthroughs is a need for a Mongol-like feel to the end of the civil war. As in, after you finish the main civil war quests, I wish there was some sort of "if you don't join me, you die. Join and you will live." sidequest. Just a cohort of Stormcloak or Imperial soldiers walking through cities and giving this proposition. It would be interesting to see how this would affect the overall landscape of Skyrim.

 

Also, and maybe I haven't looked deep enough, I wish there was some sort of "resistance" side-quests after the main civil war quest line finishes. Or more responsibility on the player to maintain the "victory".

[MidbossVyers]

Well, in the case of a Legion victory, hopefully, a certain smart Legion commander will do something, like this, to the Stormcloak remnants:

[monganfinn]

This is a civil war and not a conquest of a foreign land nor an all out war, as such IMO both sides act very restrained when it comes to using force against civilians and something like you propose wouldn´t happen. Apart from Karthwasten we hear of nothing that could constitute am attack on civilians, and then we don´t really know what happened at Karthwasten. Also the commoners wouldn´t really care about who rules them anyway: we even hear in the cities conquered by the cloaks that life continues on quite normally, even for non Nords. The only thing that changes are the rulers and the High King isn´t elected by the commoners but by the Jarls each side put into power and thus no has much on an interest in pressuring the people into obedience, as long as they don´t rise up in civil revolts.

 

After the respective capitals are taken (Solitude/Windhelm) the player gets charged with rooting out any further troops stationed at the war camps of the enemy faction.

 

Well, in the case of a Legion victory, hopefully, a certain smart Legion commander will do something, like this, to the Stormcloak remnants:

The problem I see with this is that the civil war is a battle of ideologies. I´d see them joining with the Legion if Tullius tells them they would be fighting the Thalmor right the next moment, but not really otherwise. Also first the cloaks would all need to be captured and transported to place where Tullius would show up, remember that Tullius isn´t much of a frontline guy even the in the cut content where at least Ulfric was more of a presence on the battlefield.

 

The LDB could probably do it, but then again I don´t understand how the LDB couldn´t just end the whole conflict by his decree, I mean every side that he´s the enemy off would normaly just surrender if he is as powerful as lore states.

[pgir001]

This issue is still a current topic, I see. I had weighed in with my opinion in the past that I just could not support Ulfric because, of how I viewed his attack on Whiterun, I could see no justification for it under the banner of his cause. I am not going back into that argument again, however, I will say, I still cannot see Ulfric as honorable. I do believe he is bloodthirsty and has much of his own personal agenda fronted by his "righteous cause". But in a recent play-though, I had spent more time in The Blue Palace than I had previously. I had an opportunity to overhear dialog between Eliisif and her court. After listening to Elisif speak, I can say that I have done a one eighty on my stance. I cannot support the Imperials any longer. Elisif is an idiot who is incompetent and justifies Ulfric's claim that she would indeed hand Skyrim over to the Thalmor. As much as I feel that The Empire / Elisif has the righteous cause over the Stormcloaks, I cannot help but look upon Elisif as the cause for the inevitable destruction of Skyrim. Right or wrong becomes irrelevant under Thalmor rule.

[pgir001]

This is a civil war and not a conquest of a foreign land nor an all out war, as such IMO both sides act very restrained when it comes to using force against civilians and something like you propose wouldn´t happen. Apart from Karthwasten we hear of nothing that could constitute am attack on civilians, and then we don´t really know what happened at Karthwasten. Also the commoners wouldn´t really care about who rules them anyway: we even hear in the cities conquered by the cloaks that life continues on quite normally, even for non Nords. The only thing that changes are the rulers and the High King isn´t elected by the commoners but by the Jarls each side put into power and thus no has much on an interest in pressuring the people into obedience, as long as they don´t rise up in civil revolts.

 

After the respective capitals are taken (Solitude/Windhelm) the player gets charged with rooting out any further troops stationed at the war camps of the enemy faction.

 

Well, in the case of a Legion victory, hopefully, a certain smart Legion commander will do something, like this, to the Stormcloak remnants:

The problem I see with this is that the civil war is a battle of ideologies. I´d see them joining with the Legion if Tullius tells them they would be fighting the Thalmor right the next moment, but not really otherwise. Also first the cloaks would all need to be captured and transported to place where Tullius would show up, remember that Tullius isn´t much of a frontline guy even the in the cut content where at least Ulfric was more of a presence on the battlefield.

 

The LDB could probably do it, but then again I don´t understand how the LDB couldn´t just end the whole conflict by his decree, I mean every side that he´s the enemy off would normaly just surrender if he is as powerful as lore states.

If that doesn't work, there is always....

GOL HAH DOV

[Padre86]

This issue is still a current topic, I see. I had weighed in with my opinion in the past that I just could not support Ulfric because, of how I viewed his attack on Whiterun, I could see no justification for it under the banner of his cause. I am not going back into that argument again, however, I will say, I still cannot see Ulfric as honorable. I do believe he is bloodthirsty and has much of his own personal agenda fronted by his "righteous cause". But in a recent play-though, I had spent more time in The Blue Palace than I had previously. I had an opportunity to overhear dialog between Eliisif and her court. After listening to Elisif speak, I can say that I have done a one eighty on my stance. I cannot support the Imperials any longer. Elisif is an idiot who is incompetent and justifies Ulfric's claim that she would indeed hand Skyrim over to the Thalmor. As much as I feel that The Empire / Elisif has the righteous cause over the Stormcloaks, I cannot help but look upon Elisif as the cause for the inevitable destruction of Skyrim. Right or wrong becomes irrelevant under Thalmor rule.

I agree with most of the above.

 

I'll never claim Ulfric is a saint. He's ambitious, arrogant, and somewhat selfish in his motivations to overthrow the Imperials. But, and this is a big but, if you spend anytime listening to the NPC conversations in the Blue palace, you quickly learn that Ulfric's comments about the queen and the imperial-supported regime have some credibility. Elisif is quite incompetent, the Imperials know this, and she is treated pretty much like a puppet ruler. That, and from the main quest, it is quite apparent that some of her court nobility are trying to get friendly with the Thalmor. Likewise, other pro-Imperial Nordic characters seem to condone, if not outright support, some of the Thalmor actions in Skyrim (the Battleborns knew exactly where the Thalmor were keeping some of the Greymane's but said nothing about it to anyone).

 

So when Ulfric makes statements about 'Skyrim for the Nords' and getting rid of foreign influence, while there is some political rhetoric to some of that, there is also some truth in what he is saying. There are a lot of Imperial and Thalmor power plays going on in Skyrim. That's why when I roleplay as a Nord, it's very easy for me to overlook Ulfric's character faults; at the end of the day he is fighting for a cause which a true Nord can appreciate.

[Caerulean]

How about the notion that "Falk Firebeard holds the true power in the Jarl's court."? Elisif is quite incompetent but she has the support/cooperation of Falk and Bryling, both of whom I deem honorable and competent.

 

Even if the Stormcloaks were to win, Solitude's court remains the same, I believe; though of course, Imperial/Thalmor influence on Skyrim would be much lessened.

[LeddBate]

How about the notion that "Falk Firebeard holds the true power in the Jarl's court."? Elisif is quite incompetent but she has the support/cooperation of Falk and Bryling, both of whom I deem honorable and competent.

 

While this is very true, I believe that the hidden power in the court of Solitude is Sybille Stentor. And while this is the spoilers section, I will still place my reasons under a spoiler tag to avoid accidentally ruining someone's surprise at discovering her secrets.

 

 

Sybille is more than "just" the court's wizard. She's a vampire. Anecdotal evidence (more on that in a moment) suggests that she's very, very old even as vampires go. Possibly she was alive during the time of Potema's reign (The Wolf Queen of Solitude.) How is this possible? When you complete "The Wolf Queen Awakens" she falls into a near comatose habit, sleeping the vast majority of the time, only attending major events at court thereafter. This would seem to suggest that she might have had some sort of connection to Potema. And once you dispose of the Wolf Queen's spirit, it somehow drained Sybille badly.

 

But until this happens, Sybille is clearly a dangerous (and greatly feared) member of the court. She apparently "acquires" prisoners from the dungeon periodically. These unfortunate souls are never seen again. One can guess that this is how she satisfies her vampiric needs. She is arrogant to any court member that crosses her, verbally challenging them with thinly veiled threats. Just stand to one side of the court and listen to the idle chatter. You'll hear it happen. She even cuts off Jarl Elisif in mid vape to dismiss her orders to send a legion to investigate Wolf Skull cave as unnecessary.

 

Oddly, if you engage her in discussion, she will eventually reveal that she served Jarl Torygg's father and even had a hand in raising young Torygg. She eventually admits that she admired Torygg greatly and greatly regrets his death at Ulfric's hand... -er, I meant voice.

 

Clearly, Sybille Stentor is far more than a monster carefully hiding in plain view in the court of the Blue Palace. She takes her duties as the court wizard very seriously and serves Solitude to the best of her abilities. However, it is also clear that she has no respect for Elisif and is convinced that, one way or the other, she'll be replaced as Solitude's Jarl. She barely acknowledges that she is currently High Queen, observing that she is only so because she was Torygg's wife. We'll never know what she might have done as she appears to lose the will to do much anything after you dispose of Potema's spirit. One can only speculate what she might have accomplished in the court of Solitude had this not happened.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by LeddBate

[Caerulean]

I recently watched a video on Stentor and I've had my suspicions beforehand.

 

 

 

Just how could a seemingly very efficient court wizard's scrying fail at what turned out to be a much bigger threat to Solitude.

 

I can't confirm the near-comatose sleeping habits though yes, I've noticed she sleeps A LOT, but doesn't she sleep during the day like Alva? :3 I barely ever visit 'residences' anymore ever since I started (casually) roleplaying.

 

Her being in total control of Solitude's court, though not entirely impossible, is rather implausible to me. If she couldn't have swayed Torygg from courting/marrying Elisif (whom she disrespects greatly) or accepting Ulfric's challenge (if he could've refused), then I doubt she is that powerful, even if she is that skilled in Illusion magic.

 

Most NPCs are aware of Stentor's antagonism and just try to stay on her good/neutral side. :3

 

 

 

Despite all these, I still find Solitude's court (Elisif's kind innocence + Falk's professionalism + Bryling's mindfulness + Erikur's business-mindedness + Sybille's cunning) well-balanced. *shrug* Perhaps the frequent discussions in this court have made me believe that it's (one of) the most functional/healthiest court in Skyrim. Balgruuf + Irileth + Proventus + Hrongar (Whiterun) seems well-balanced too.

[monganfinn]

There´s a lot of cut content for the Solitude court: a quest for Boethia has you murder Elisif, Erikur becomes her replacement and Bryling was slated to be the replacement jarl incase of a stormcloak victory.

 

Even in the uncut dialogue Bryling shows sympathy for the stormcloaks IMO and she and Falk are lovers according to Sybille.

While the Solitude court seems to work quite well the whole case with Stentor (summoning of Potema and vampires infiltrating the city) shows that not all is well in the city. (If one believes the prison warden and Erikur´s court mage then they practically have the Qyburn of Tamriel in Stentor.) Furthermore Stentor claims that without her the whole city would soon sink into chaos, so apparently the other members of court aren´t so well suited to do the business, or Stentor errs, but since all the others do nothing to refute her verbal abuse it doesn´t seem so. I would also disagree with the claim that the court of Solitude works well together and is balanced: when listening to Stentor it´s as if she rules the whole court and without her everything would fall apart, the thanes claim that they do not put their trust in Elisif but rather Tullius, one thane is the lover of the steward and the other is a jerkass according to his own sister and has his fingers in the business of the Thieves Guild.

 

Now Solitude is probably the largest city of Skyrim and definitely the wealthiest and it shows with their thanes, who are both merchants, consequently military matters seem to mainly rest on the imperial general sitting in Castle Dour, aka Tullius in the 4E20x years. As such I question how much military (and non-military) authority Elisif and her court even truly have and how much rests with Tullius as well as if two thanes are even necessary.

 

Among any of the cities of Skyrim, Solitude has the most court-members, this may be because of the city´s size, but pretty much all the other cities make due without a single thane! Balgruuf pretty much is a one-man show, sure Avenicci, Hrongar, Irileth and Farengar give him counsel but in the end he always disregards them (Hrongar´s warmongering and Avenicci councel from his daugther or his own? is at least ignored in the Riverwood matter) if they do not share his opinions (and Farengar never involves himself with politics unlike Stentor, actually Stentor is the only court mage I can recall who is truly involved in the court´s politics) - what I want to say is: aye, Solitude´s court functions well together but every other city makes due with a jarl making all the decisions alone (disregarding Markarth and Riften, which are another matter alltogether as they are practically run by crime families beneath the jarl´s nose).

Edited April 22, 2017 by monganfinn