HUGE Idea post about Ammo, Small Guns, FWE, -- a possible major modmod

[Gavinfoxx]

What? And have gauss rifles shoot peas? Sometimes there's a good reason for rarity and cost... It's usually a sign of value. 2mmEC should be expensive as hell, cost 10-20 caps a shot but a few rounds should take out an Enclave APA. This stuff is what a Paladin's nightmares are made of and cutting is is really quite stupid, the whole idea is you're not meant to have much of it. It's like sniper ammo but better. Also your ammo tables neglect the unbalancing effect of non-automatic weapons which promise far better ammo conservation and hence really screwing over your balance . :happy:

 

The thing is, I can't see that with the Victory Rifle, and Ol' Painless, that the 2mm ec Gauss Rifle has any PLACE. There is already a Gauss rifle, and it works fine as an energy weapon! I mean, in FWE, you don't really NEED anything other than the Sniper Rifle for your highest end sniping! I am saying that the Small Guns Gauss rifle has no gameplay need to exist. The problem with the non automatic weapons is that they should, almost universally, have MUCH smaller damage per second than the automatic ones, making using them a risky thing if you are fighting many enemies. The non automatics are great if you can separate enemies, or fight them in small groups, or keep them at extreme range... and yes they are great for conserving ammo. But the idea is to make using them RISKY, which I believe FWE + MMM does quite well with huge hordes of enemies. My "tables" were for figuring out what the maximum damage per second each ammo type should be capable of. I have yet to work out a formula for the slower firing ones!

[Nihilisaurus]

The thing is, I can't see that with the Victory Rifle, and Ol' Painless, that the 2mm ec Gauss Rifle has any PLACE. There is already a Gauss rifle, and it works fine as an energy weapon! I mean, in FWE, you don't really NEED anything other than the Sniper Rifle for your highest end sniping! I am saying that the Small Guns Gauss rifle has no gameplay need to exist. The problem with the non automatic weapons is that they should, almost universally, have MUCH smaller damage per second than the automatic ones, making using them a risky thing if you are fighting many enemies. The non automatics are great if you can separate enemies, or fight them in small groups, or keep them at extreme range... and yes they are great for conserving ammo. But the idea is to make using them RISKY, which I believe FWE + MMM does quite well with huge hordes of enemies. My "tables" were for figuring out what the maximum damage per second each ammo type should be capable of. I have yet to work out a formula for the slower firing ones!

That's because you're not looking. A gauss rifle is an armour piercing weapon (either via script or by way of deathclaw gauntlet tickbox pre-1.5). THe idea is that although against a DR of 80 a sniper will do 10 damage of its 50 the gauss rifle will do 80 or 90% of its damage through the armour. It's not a sniper rifle so much as a battle rifle with a specfic niche.

[Gavinfoxx]

That's because you're not looking. A gauss rifle is an armour piercing weapon (either via script or by way of deathclaw gauntlet tickbox pre-1.5). THe idea is that although against a DR of 80 a sniper will do 10 damage of its 50 the gauss rifle will do 80 or 90% of its damage through the armour. It's not a sniper rifle so much as a battle rifle with a specfic niche.

 

 

*checkcheck* Uh no, in FWE, no gauss weapon is armor piercing! The Magneto Laser pistol is though, as well as the Microwave Emitter, as well as one of the YK32's. And checking ranged weapons that have a script.. the various dart guns, lincoln's repeater, the plasma pistol. As far as "object effect", I see a bunch of flame effects for flame weapons, but not much for these...

[Nihilisaurus]

Erm... Since when does something have to be in FWE for it to be true/necessary/a good idea. Go look back at previous FOs, along with armour piercing rockets the Gauss was the last word in anti-power Armour weaponry. Seriously, you're modding if something doesn't work as it's supposed to then MAKE it do so :P

 

You're already going to turn the ammo system upside down and mess with a lot of other weapon stats. No harm in changing a few more in the name of making something useful. Gauss rifles are supposed to be the highest tier small gun, long after the 80 DR of the Enclave APA (in FO2 and my personal mods at least) renders most assault rifles inefficient and a liability to use, a Gauss rifle gives a small guns character their late game punch. It's like the Gattling laser for vanilla Big guns characters, ammo may cost a lot but you'll be damned if it isn't worth it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Erm... Since when does something have to be in FWE for it to be true/necessary/a good idea. Go look back at previous FOs, along with armour piercing rockets the Gauss was the last word in anti-power Armour weaponry. Seriously, you're modding if something doesn't work as it's supposed to then MAKE it do so :P

 

You're already going to turn the ammo system upside down and mess with a lot of other weapon stats. No harm in changing a few more in the name of making something useful. Gauss rifles are supposed to be the highest tier small gun, long after the 80 DR of the Enclave APA (in FO2 and my personal mods at least) renders most assault rifles inefficient and a liability to use, a Gauss rifle gives a small guns character their late game punch. It's like the Gattling laser for vanilla Big guns characters, ammo may cost a lot but you'll be damned if it isn't worth it.

 

To me, an armor piercing weapon shouldn't HAVE a crazy amount of damage per shot if it isn't a melee weapon. I am fine with a few melee weapons having it, because those are really dangerous to use and require you to charge, but a long range weapon should a.) be really hard to aim and hit with, with a slow refire rate (microwave emitter), b. not do too much damage compared to similar items (magneto laser), or both. To me, the slow firing, relatively low damage, hyper advanced zhu-rong would be an okay alternative to the magneto laser for "pierces armor", because it is superheated.

[Gavinfoxx]

By the way, for the fallout 2 weapons... this is what I believe the "inspirational" numbers should come from:

 

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42787

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pF_ntc685Cx5H9MydiVvcLg&hl=en

http://www.mediafire.com/?9ep4m5pgpzm

 

The only f2 penetrating weapons are the ripper, pulse grenade, sharpened spear, mega power fist, wakizashi, needler, pulse pistol, pulse rifle, and magneto laser.

 

So, to me, it looks like we should add the ripper -- or at least jack -- to the "piercing" list, and consider one of the combat knives (the slash stabby things that attack 3 times a second) to be piercing maye, as well as the "shocker" to be piercing.

[Nihilisaurus]

Indeed, now go look at the gauss rifle's crazy damage and tell me you wouldn't prefer to nerf it and give it a 50% armour bypassing effect instead of the massive damage.

Ammo2mm EC

SIze 2

Weight 2

Price 500

Quantity 50

AC mod -25

dmg_mult 5

dmg_div 4

DR mod -25

 

.223 FMJ

SIze 1

Weight 2

Price 225

Quantity 50

AC mod -15

dmg_mult 8

dmg_div 7

DR mod -20

 

As you can see, it strips an extra 10 off of ArmourClass, and an extra 5 off of Damage resistance compared to .223 FMJ, and that takes off 5 more DR than 4.7mm Caseless. So we have an expensive round that can get through tougher armour (but not bypass it) more efficiently than any other ammo and you're telling me you don't want it around when the Enclave show up? The O:A gauss should be feeding this stuff anyways! I tried this setup ingame, 80 DR on APA, 50% pass-through on 2mmEC, nothing else really scratched them... M79, frags, a minigun... all of it bounced off, but a 2mmEC headshot? 2 of those and bam, GAME OVER, man.

[Gavinfoxx]

So you think the O:A should use that ammo and be a small guns weapon?

 

Hmmm. Maybe. That would require quite a few changes. My main problems are that it seems to me that the new Gauss weapons don't seem to be, well, really "done". They seem to be half-finished as it were...

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay. in order to be able to START this mod, I need some help with modding the Steel Mill to use more ammo types. Can anyone help explain how to change the Steel Mill to use many many more types of ammo?? I need some help, I went to GECK and typed in "Mill" in the filter, and selected *All, and I found things like DLC01MillAmmoTypes, DLC01MillAmmoSubTerminal, DLC01MillAmmo10mmsubsubterminal, but I don't know what to do in order to fully add the calibr ammo types, or at the very least, change the values and such of the existing ammo types, or anything...

 

Hmmm... It looks like someone might need to reskin the high velocity or 10mm ammo box (like they did for the 14mm ammo box) for the .45 acp round, and maybe use that .45 acp object for the (4.7 / 4.6 / 5.7) round, since it looks more "military". Of course using the 308 case for the 7.62 would be fine... but maybe reskinning the 10mm case for the 9mm round? I don't want to JUST rename the 10mm round to a 9mm round, I would rather actually use the 9mm round and have it actually have the case...

[Nihilisaurus]

So you think the O:A should use that ammo and be a small guns weapon?

 

Hmmm. Maybe. That would require quite a few changes. My main problems are that it seems to me that the new Gauss weapons don't seem to be, well, really "done". They seem to be half-finished as it were...

That thing is a chunky son of a *****, I'd say it was a big gun personally. Something like an M72 Gauss (on nexus somewhere) or a STALKER Arsenal model one.