The Duality of Truth

[Dicecaster]

complete truth is impossible

one man's green is another's red

some scientists believe that people dont see color the same

we might even hear things differently too! for all i know, my heavy metal is your country!

take for instant Plato's cave analogy

http://i55.tinypic.com/28i574w.gif

now, imagine one of the prisoners is released into the sunlight and discovers truth, thus making him the "philosopher king"

when he returns, he will not be believed by others for knowing the "truth"

but for all the philosopher king knows, he was released into a bigger cave with a bigger fire and has himself only experienced another lie

there is another level to this, but it involves religion, so that point is not moot

Okay, I lied. It's to tempting too resist.

 

Okay, I've tried to say this earlier: there is a universal truth, but as humans our distorted perceptions typically prevent us from knowing it. So, it doesn't matter if someone sees red and another sees green, it's still red or green (or some other color, but that's arbitrary to my argument). The philosopher king doesn't know whether or not he experienced truth or lies, but that doesn't negate such truth's existence.

 

Seriously, last post.

[TheCalliton]

they are NOT both red!

my red is your green, but neither of us is for sure right! for all we know, buddah's yellow is the true red, he only knows it as yellow

take for instance a possum, you or I might know it as a possum. You take a man who has never seen a possum and tell him it is a skunk, he will know it as a skunk, not a possum. And for all we know, he is right! we cannot know truth because of our natural condition. What makes us great as humans is our ability to DOUBT! a monkey wont doubt that a banana is a banana but we will! we doubt everything! Truth is impossible!

[marharth]

they are NOT both red!

my red is your green, but neither of us is for sure right! for all we know, buddah's yellow is the true red, he only knows it as yellow

take for instance a possum, you or I might know it as a possum. You take a man who has never seen a possum and tell him it is a skunk, he will know it as a skunk, not a possum. And for all we know, he is right! we cannot know truth because of our natural condition. What makes us great as humans is our ability to DOUBT! a monkey wont doubt that a banana is a banana but we will! we doubt everything! Truth is impossible!

Your 100 percent right, but the monkey analogy kinda fails.

[Balagor]

Okay then, you are ready to accept that my truth can look different from your truth. I will see red when others see blue or yellow.

How abouts some truths from the real world. Are you ready to accept them? A Hamaz warior is a terrorist in western "truth". Are you ready to accept that he is a freedom fighter in Palestine "truth".

I am not flamebaiting or trolling. Just asking. ;)

[TheCalliton]

because i believe one thing, i am unlikely to believe another!

but it is within the realm of possibility to be convinced of another truth

[Aurielius]

Okay then, you are ready to accept that my truth can look different from your truth. I will see red when others see blue or yellow.

How abouts some truths from the real world. Are you ready to accept them? A Hamaz warior is a terrorist in western "truth". Are you ready to accept that he is a freedom fighter in Palestine "truth".

I am not flamebaiting or trolling. Just asking. ;)

Though it pains me to say so ...One man's founding father of his country is another's rebel or in more modern terms a possible terrorist. Everything that involves an individual's perception of the world is subjective to their perspective. Though for the record I loathe individuals that fight and hide behind civilians without regard to the innocent bystanders that may be harmed by their actions. That too is a matter of subjective perspective which proves Balagor's point.

[Balagor]

Let me then add that I meant "true" terrorist or freedom fighters, the ones who have the courage to stand against the opponant army, and would never hurt innoncents.

Those who kill only inoncents in the supermarkets or busses, by blowing them selfes up, they have their own unique perception, the way they see the world. Twisted we would say, though still theirs.

[TheCalliton]

Okay then, you are ready to accept that my truth can look different from your truth. I will see red when others see blue or yellow.

How abouts some truths from the real world. Are you ready to accept them? A Hamaz warior is a terrorist in western "truth". Are you ready to accept that he is a freedom fighter in Palestine "truth".

I am not flamebaiting or trolling. Just asking. ;)

Though it pains me to say so ...One man's founding father of his country is another's rebel or in more modern terms a possible terrorist. Everything that involves an individual's perception of the world is subjective to their perspective. Though for the record I loathe individuals that fight and hide behind civilians without regard to the innocent bystanders that may be harmed by their actions. That too is a matter of subjective perspective which proves Balagor's point.

exactly, ghengis kahn is a hero to the mongols, but a monster to the surrounding countries

i myself love this topic! so FUN!

i myself need some time to truly think through and come up with an excelent point

[marharth]

Let me say this...

 

Lets say I said that I had a invisible flying dog that didn't make noise and never touched anything. However I had a large amount of proof supporting this claim.

 

I would be called insane and it wouldn't be the truth to anyone but myself if I didn't show the proof.

 

That being said, truth has to do entirely with influence.

 

Lets say a bunch of alien monsters from Pluto came and told humans a bunch of things. Over time what the aliens monsters told to human might be changed for the purpose of power. At some point a powerful empire decided to make a school to talk about the teachings. The empire realized that could use this to gain even more power so they started changing certain things that the alien monster told them. Over time they changed quite a bit and the teachings were almost completely different. Lets say the humans wrote a book about what they were told by the school and called it "The Teachings of the Alien Monster". A long time passed by and the humans eventuality fought against the empire. The humans then left for new lands, still believing what the school of the alien monster taught them. As the new human society progressed they started to advance is science and technology, and started to realize that the book and the school they listened to and were taught by, were lies for power. Due to the long reign of the power many people ignored the new advances in science, or changed it to be match with science and technology. For example, the book said that they could not eat chicken (at the time of empires rule, chicken was eaten by a enemy country, they started teaching that the alien monster said that to try to stop the enemies countries profit) but people wanted to eat chicken so they did anyways and claimed it must of been a mistake by the alien monsters. However many people also said that the alien monsters never existed, and if he did his ideas were changed a lot.

 

What I am saying is that the influence of power can make people believe nearly anything, but once people start to see facts and statistics they realize that the truth may be something else.

 

Facts are a powerful form of influence, since it shows a person what happens right in front of there eyes.

 

Propaganda can be a powerful form of influence also. If you listen to the same thing over and over, you might start to think that's the right thing.

 

If the government released fake facts that proved the moon didn't really exist, and was just a projection from our minds, a part of the population would believe them since the government is a massive influence.

[grannywils]

I have been away from forum discussion for some time, and much to my dismay have missed this excellent thread. I made a comment very early basically agreeing with Balagor with his concept of a specific truth. But I must take a moment to say how much I have enjoyed all of the input I have now read from everyone; but in particular that between Aurilius and Dicecaster. You are both amazingly articulate and interesting to read. Aurielius, you in particular never cease to amaze me with your insiteful wisdom and grasp of your subject. Kudos to both of you. You make reading these threads utterly fascinating.