spoiler Origins of the Grey Wardens

[CrapsterZ]

This question has been bugging me to no end.

 

How did the first Grey Wardens come about?

 

The Joining involves archdemon blood and lyrium, and the Grey Wardens ingest the taint, but where did they get the BLOOD? I mean, I'd highly doubt that even if they managed to wound the archdemon without killing it (and making an immortal darkspawn), there'd be a horde of DS around them, correct? How did they manage to conveniently get blood from the AD?

 

And what kind of genius does it take to ingest the damn blood? It sounds really cool on paper but in practice, what kind of dumbass would go "oh, it's the blood taken from the boss of those monsters that SUCKS THE LIFE OUT OF THE LAND ITSELF, I'll drink it with some LYRIUM."

 

Anyone has any theories on how this might have happened? The only answers I have are that the first Grey Warden(s) were either on drugs or already "lyrium-addled" (really dumb templars on a lyrium high?) or ... dwarves. (/sarcasm)

 

Really, a plausible explanation would be nice. It might have something to do with discovering what happens to the archdemon's soul when it is killed, but how would they discover it in the first place and come to the conclusion that they needed to be tainted themselves?

[HelghanSpartan]

This question has been bugging me to no end.

 

How did the first Grey Wardens come about?

 

The Joining involves archdemon blood and lyrium, and the Grey Wardens ingest the taint, but where did they get the BLOOD? I mean, I'd highly doubt that even if they managed to wound the archdemon without killing it (and making an immortal darkspawn), there'd be a horde of DS around them, correct? How did they manage to conveniently get blood from the AD?

 

And what kind of genius does it take to ingest the damn blood? It sounds really cool on paper but in practice, what kind of dumbass would go "oh, it's the blood taken from the boss of those monsters that SUCKS THE LIFE OUT OF THE LAND ITSELF, I'll drink it with some LYRIUM."

 

Anyone has any theories on how this might have happened? The only answers I have are that the first Grey Warden(s) were either on drugs or already "lyrium-addled" (really dumb templars on a lyrium high?) or ... dwarves. (/sarcasm)

 

Really, a plausible explanation would be nice. It might have something to do with discovering what happens to the archdemon's soul when it is killed, but how would they discover it in the first place and come to the conclusion that they needed to be tainted themselves?

[HelghanSpartan]

First of all the blood is straight up Darkspawn blood not Archdemon so its alot simpler than what u put it as Darkspawn are walking meatsacks waiting to be chopped up. The Archetect and his disciples from Awakening they like to meddle in crap but im not sure how far back they go so...

[DarkeWolf]

oooooo now THIS could be an interesting conversation.

 

Its my understanding that the Wardens were conceived by the Tevinter (the same folks who ((according to the chantry)) were directly connected with the Old Gods and the fall of the Golden City, creation of the DS in the first place). In my mind, it would make sense that since they started the whole blight mess, that they'd be the ones to work the hardest at finding a way to end them. It would also make sense in my mind that they'd be the ones to find the method, as they are the most magically advanced nation.

 

You dont make advancements without a lot of trial and error, experimentation, and research. Think of it like the first time that you get a chemistry set. What do you do? You start mixing stuff up. :laugh:

Now combine that with a semi-modern method of thinking, and midieval alchemy mindset... "Hmmm. I dont see any kind reaction here. lets see what happens when we inject it into a rat!"

 

Actually, you're both wrong. The Joining Ritual involves drinking a mixture that is predominantly DS blood, mixed with lyrium, and a small portion of preseved Arch Demon blood, along with whatever magics that they throw in.

Where do they get the AD blood? There's been other blights. I'm sure that large quantities were taken and preserved (most likely by magic) after those blights were terminated. (Probably along any other bodily material that they can transport, for experimentation).

 

The Tevinter preceed the templars. So the theory of the first wardens being Lyrium addled templars... I can't see it. Like I said with the theory of the chemistry set.... the Tevinter would know the magical properties of lyrium, and would probably have mixed the two together in their experimentation.

Or... maybe they came across some raw lyrium that was tainted by the DS presence, (remember... lyrium is mined. Where do the DS dwell? Deep in the earth.) and experimented with that.

Oooooo.... now there's an interesting theory on the magic casting DS. Do they ingest or become somehow subjected to lyrium to gain their spellcasting ability? And if so, perhaps it was THEIR blood which led to the discovery?

 

Where would they get the idea to ingest this stuff? Well... the Tevinter don't strike me as the most "moral" types, to begin with. But also faced with the destruction of the entire planet, I'd say that this is where the mindset of "By any means necessary" originated. And those means (by an amoral people) most probably included human experimentation (again, back to "lets feed this to a rat and see what happens"). So I can imagine people being force-fed all kinds of concoctions. IE- the test subjects for "wardenization" most likely weren't willing volunteers.

 

Edit- Actually, now that I'm thinking about it like this.... THIS could be one more reason why they keep the Joining Rit a secret. So that people DON'T start asking questions like this. I mean... what kind of order would want it known that they originated from Human Experimentation?

[RustyBlade]

oooooo now THIS could be an interesting conversation.

 

Its my understanding that the Wardens were conceived by the Tevinter (the same folks who ((according to the chantry)) were directly connected with the Old Gods and the fall of the Golden City, creation of the DS in the first place). In my mind, it would make sense that since they started the whole blight mess, that they'd be the ones to work the hardest at finding a way to end them. It would also make sense in my mind that they'd be the ones to find the method, as they are the most magically advanced nation.

 

You dont make advancements without a lot of trial and error, experimentation, and research. Think of it like the first time that you get a chemistry set. What do you do? You start mixing stuff up. :laugh:

Now combine that with a semi-modern method of thinking, and midieval alchemy mindset... "Hmmm. I dont see any kind reaction here. lets see what happens when we inject it into a rat!"

 

Actually, you're both wrong. The Joining Ritual involves drinking a mixture that is predominantly DS blood, mixed with lyrium, and a small portion of preseved OG blood, along with whatever magics that they throw in.

Where do they get the OG blood? There's been other blights. I'm sure that large quantities were taken and preserved (most likely by magic) after those blights were terminated. (Probably along any other bodily material that they can transport, for experimentation).

 

The Tevinter preceed the templars. So the theory of the first wardens being Lyrium addled templars... I can't see it. Like I said with the theory of the chemistry set.... the Tevinter would know the magical properties of lyrium, and would probably have mixed the two together in their experimentation.

Or... maybe they came across some raw lyrium that was tainted by the DS presence, (remember... lyrium is mined. Where do the DS dwell? Deep in the earth.) and experimented with that.

Oooooo.... now there's an interesting theory on the magic casting DS. Do they ingest or become somehow subjected to lyrium to gain their spellcasting ability? And if so, perhaps it was THEIR blood which led to the discovery?

 

Where would they get the idea to ingest this stuff? Well... the Tevinter don't strike me as the most "moral" types, to begin with. But also faced with the destruction of the entire planet, I'd say that this is where the mindset of "By any means necessary" originated. And those means (by an amoral people) most probably included human experimentation (again, back to "lets feed this to a rat and see what happens"). So I can imagine people being force-fed all kinds of concoctions. IE- the test subjects for "wardenization" most likely weren't willing volunteers.

 

I don't recall Riordan saying anything about "Old God" blood, he specifically says blood of the archdemon. Everything else makes good sense though :thumbsup:

 

Now you have me wondering what happens to the recently deceased archdemon's blood. My character didn't milk the thing and I doubt Al had much time to consider it with his pending coronation. There are no other wardens close by. Such a waste... :blink:

[DarkeWolf]

Good point. Thanks for correcting me on my terminology :thumbsup:

Bad habit of mine, I tend to think of the OG and AD in the same prospect. :wacko:

 

Yeah, there was a lot that went wrong this time around. I think that there's a lot of "parts" from the AD that went to waste, since there weren't any other, more "knowledgable" wardens about. (Leave it to the newbs to save the day, but botch it up for the future gens! LOL J/K).

I blame Roghain. If he hadnt gotten them all killed, then we'd have plenty of AD blood. Tho.... thinking about it, that could be a plot factor for the next time around.

[RustyBlade]

Good point. Thanks for correcting me on my terminology :thumbsup:

Bad habit of mine, I tend to think of the OG and AD in the same prospect. :wacko:

 

I wasn't really trying to correct, just making the point that there is a big difference - or was until Morrigan's baby :huh:

 

I blame Roghain.

 

Works for me :biggrin:

[danscott84]

Do we know for certain they did not collect the blood of the recently deceased AD? We go from the kill to the coronation/funeral, and there is little extrapolation of what happens in between. Plus, since you can make almost every party member in Awakenings into a GW, where did the AD blood come from? Riordan mentions that Loghain and Howe confiscated the preserved blood from the Denerim vault, but what did they do with it? As for the origins of the GW's, Riordan also tells you back in the Eamon estate in Denerim, but it's been a while since I have been in that part of the game that I don't remember what he says.

[DarkSpiral]

The question has been asked before. I recall several threads after the game's release (over on the Bioware forums) about this very topic.

 

Taking strength from evil in order to turn it against that same evil is a very old concept, really. Fight fire with fire, that kind of thing. A whole lot of people wanted to use The One Ring against Sauron, Blade is such a successful vampire hunter because he has the same powers, Sam uses the power of demon blood to fight demons in Supernatural, the list goes on. Some attemts are far more successful than others, of course but the concept is so well used that seeing it in the creation of the Grey Warden order wasn't a surprise to me.

 

As for how they got the blood...well. Codex entries make it clear that Dumat (the first archdemon, as well as the most powerful of the Seven old Gods of Tevinter) was "slain" many times, but simply kept coming back. So he shed a whole lot of blood around the countryside during the nearly one hundred years that the First Blight raged. Therefore getting your hands on some of it probably wasn't all that hard.

 

As for exactly how the Joining came to be...well frankly I'd be more annoyed if there was a clear-cut, definitive answer. Dumat led the First Blight more than 1200 years before DA:O. That's a really long time. How much do we honestly know about the world of 1200 year ago? More than the people of Thedas do, but we haven't had to handle four catastrophic invasions of darkspawn in our history. I think it's fine that no one alive during the events of the game really know precisely what happened.

 

I seem to recall Riordan telling the player that the Grey Wardens were actually formed by a group of soldiers in the Anderfells, where the HQ of the order still sits today. I don't really know if they were part of the Tevinter Imperium or not, but the Imperium spread over the vast majority of the known world, so they very well might have been. Those soldiers all died in the battle that finally killed Dumat permanently, and their followers were the ones that formalized the order and were recognized by the powers of Thedas.

[DarkSpiral]

Do we know for certain they did not collect the blood of the recently deceased AD? We go from the kill to the coronation/funeral, and there is little extrapolation of what happens in between. Plus, since you can make almost every party member in Awakenings into a GW, where did the AD blood come from? Riordan mentions that Loghain and Howe confiscated the preserved blood from the Denerim vault, but what did they do with it? As for the origins of the GW's, Riordan also tells you back in the Eamon estate in Denerim, but it's been a while since I have been in that part of the game that I don't remember what he says.

 

I think it's safe to infer that the blood from Archedom Urthemiel was collect off the roof of Fort Drakon after he is killed by the player (or whichever Warden deals the final blow). It was lying all over the place, afterall.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think it is ever mentioned, or even an option to ask about, the archdemon blood that had to be used in Loghain's Joining.