spoiler Question about the Ashes

[danscott84]

The ashes were gone? :ohmy: I never saw that one. In my games pilgrims flock to the ashes blah blah blah...

 

Yes I only got it the once, I figured Leliana sneaked in and stole them :laugh: perhaps I can trawl through my old saves and see if I can find the epilogue, maybe I read it quickly and made a mistake, at the time I just figured it was a variation on the ending and didn't give it a second thought until now and I'm sure I read recently someone saying that if you let the dragon live it keeps pilgrims away, but when I let it live I didn't get that epilogue.

 

I recall that back when I let the dragon live (before I learned how easy it was to actually kill it) the epilogue states that pilgrams tried to reach the Urn, but were kept back by the dragon that lived there. When it eventually left, the ashes were gone. I always figured that there were some in Haven left alive that probably took the Urn after you decimated their home.

 

As for the Ashes curing the taint. I think Avernus has that down to why the Ashes cannot sure it. It's something that even the demons cannot understand (hence I agree that taint is not from the Fade). And, correct me if I am wrong, but the Guardian even states that the Ashes cannot be removed from the temple, and only "A" pinch of Ashes maybe removed by those deemed worthy. Since we know from Oghren that the temple is lined with the purest and stongest lyrium deposits he has felt in a long time, making the Ashes special, their potency is tied to their location. However, it is not the end all be all of cures, and since the DS taint is supposed to be the ultimate punishment from the Maker for the sins of the Tevinter mages who defiled the Golden City, even the Ashes should not be able to cure the taint. It's supposed to be incurable.

[brokenergy]

http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad298/someonestoleit/theurn.jpg?t=1276999776

[Thandal]

Wow! Quite a thorough analysis of the situation vis a vis Sacred Ashes.

 

Not that I don't think Ultotri is off target with the "Why can't I (as the PC) do [this] or [that]?" I have the same general reaction to Alistair's "It's him or me." declaration regarding Loghain after I've kicked the Regent's ass around the hall at the Landsmeet. Hey! My persude/coersion is max'ed out! My logic that "We need every Warden we can get!" is impeccible. What's Big Al's problem? :teehee:

[SpellAndShield]

Wow! Quite a thorough analysis of the situation vis a vis Sacred Ashes.

 

Not that I don't think Ultotri is off target with the "Why can't I (as the PC) do [this] or [that]?" I have the same general reaction to Alistair's "It's him or me." declaration regarding Loghain after I've kicked the Regent's ass around the hall at the Landsmeet. Hey! My persude/coersion is max'ed out! My logic that "We need every Warden we can get!" is impeccible. What's Big Al's problem? :teehee:

 

Couldn't agree with you more; Alistair acts like he is a 5 year old there...

[Utotri]

 

Fixed. The knights are not loyal to Teagan even though he is Eamon's brother. They have no oath of loyalty towards him (only his brother) and are not obliged to take his orders. That is the first rule of feudalism. The knights are also religious as seen earlier in the game, if you hide Conner's secret it would still be found out in due time and Conner would be forced to leave. There is nothing you could do about that, secrets have a habit of coming out in inconvenient times.

 

What is fixed? The knights are loyal to Connor when Eamon is dead and if Teagan is regent in Connor's name the knights will be loyal to Teagan. This does not run contrary to the usual practice in feudal Europe. It was quite normal to have regents or placeholders.

 

When members here talk about the taint we talk about it's effects but I have to add this in the taint. The ashes can cure illness or disease in Thedas. The taint however does not come from Thedas, it comes from the fade. Even if you obtain an extra pinch, the ashes wont cure you as the taint is not from that world. It was caused by arrogant mages how thought that if setting the old gods free by practicing blood magic and entering the fade. This is the price they are going to pay.

 

All of this is mere speculation and your guess is as good as mine. It does not serve us to discuss these things in detail because there is no way for us to fully understand phenomena as the Fade or the Ashes, because there are no reliable sources and it can't be tested.

 

Now I don't really know what happened (as I don't work for BW) but in religion (in real life) some texts have truth in them (even thought they are small). Of course that is just an example that past texts and fables have some truth about events and phenomena in real life, therefore the Chantry's version of the origins of the darkspawn has some truth in them, so we have some idea of its origins even though it is religious text it would helps us understand.

 

I do not see value in this line of reasoning. It is based on many fallacious assumptions and bad logic. The Chantry does not tell us anything we can be sure to trust.

 

Btw the ashes are just ashes with lyrium infused in it. Take Oghren or Morrigan with you in your next play though and listen to their opinions.

 

There is lyrium there but what does it mean? We don't know. The lyrium itself does not explain the powers, merely how it is transmitted I think.

 

Same as above. If you have Warden's Keep, then you would know that Avernus is trying to perfect the joining. So the problem isn't about the taint is more about the perfection of ancient process, maybe in DA2 you could help to perfect the joining for future generations but that is another story.

 

As long as the Joining is such a burden the taint is still something you would want to get rid of if possible given certain dispositions regarding the Wardens. Especially because the protagonist does not always know about Avernus' projects prior to Haven. Also, Avernus could be wrong. I also don't see how this relates to the Ashes.

Perhaps the perfect Joining leaves no taint at all. We can't know these things. I can only focus on the roleplay experience and the way the story unfolds there. If the game limits my interactive options because of lore or the way the fantasy world is supposed to work it should still let me try or explain why I can't try. This is not the case with the Ashes.

[Utotri]

Wow! Quite a thorough analysis of the situation vis a vis Sacred Ashes.

 

Not that I don't think Ultotri is off target with the "Why can't I (as the PC) do [this] or [that]?"

 

How am I 'off target'? I merely noticed a certain lack of choice in the game that would have been quite logical given the story my character is given by the game itself. Am I not allowed to criticize the game and try to look for things that I feel could be improved?

 

I have the same general reaction to Alistair's "It's him or me." declaration regarding Loghain after I've kicked the Regent's ass around the hall at the Landsmeet. Hey! My persude/coersion is max'ed out! My logic that "We need every Warden we can get!" is impeccible. What's Big Al's problem? :teehee:

 

This is not at all comparable. In fact, this is exactly the difference. You have the choice to persuade Alistair, but the game makes you fail. I would have accepted it without any problem if my character was given the choice to try the Ashes and had made me fail at it. I do not have this choice even though it is a logical wish for certain characters.

[RustyBlade]

So Utotri, if you cure your taint and Alistair's, how are you going to kill the archdemon?

[Utotri]

So Utotri, if you cure your taint and Alistair's, how are you going to kill the archdemon?

 

It is not about Alistair. He remains tainted.

[RustyBlade]

Ok, you've stated that your character might not know about Avernus research prior to getting the ashes. By the same token your character doesn't know that Alistair lives to the end of the game or can be replaced by Rogain. So at the point you want to cure yourself, given your character's knowledge at that point it is possible you would be dooming your clan and the rest of Ferelden. If you are attempting to role-play the worlds most selfish Dalish IMO you have succeeded.

[Utotri]

Ok, you've stated that your character might not know about Avernus research prior to getting the ashes. By the same token your character doesn't know that Alistair lives to the end of the game or can be replaced by Rogain. So at the point you want to cure yourself, given your character's knowledge at that point it is possible you would be dooming your clan and the rest of Ferelden. If you are attempting to role-play the worlds most selfish Dalish IMO you have succeeded.

 

No, you are mistaken. First, my elf is unaware at that point that the taint is necessary to defeat the archdemon. Secondly there is no reason to expect Alistair to die. I am not attempting to roleplay the world's most selfish Dalish, far from it. I do not know why you would think that, because it is quite absurd. I suspect that you are attempting to mock me then, which I do not appreciate.