spoiler Question about the Ashes

[RustyBlade]

I am not attempting to roleplay the world's most selfish Dalish, far from it. I do not know why you would think that, because it is quite absurd. I suspect that you are attempting to mock me then, which I do not appreciate.

 

Your words are what makes me think that; you would use the ashes on yourself (the PC), wasting them in the process, plus you are living and will live for 20-30 years at least, instead of saving another who is dying. That is a very selfish act. You have made it quite clear (to me anyway) with that and other statements that your elf thinks it's all about me.

 

If I were going to mock you I would be far more obvious about it.

[Thandal]

Wow! Quite a thorough analysis of the situation vis a vis Sacred Ashes.

 

Not that I don't think Ultotri is off target with the "Why can't I (as the PC) do [this] or [that]?"

 

How am I 'off target'?

Ummmmm, (looks down/shuffles feet) :blush: My 05:45 use of a double (or is that a triple?) negative and/or the wrong preposition managed to confuse both myself and any reader. What I meant to say was: "Not that I don't agree with Utotri... " regarding the (apparently) illogical and (seemingly) unnecessary limiting of options in certain circumstances.

 

While we might not all agree on which situations fit that description, I think most of us encounter at least one in every playthrough that cause us to feel, "But [i/my PC] wouldn't [do/say] that!?!" or otherwise wish that the writers had thought of something we have.

[Utotri]

 

Your words are what makes me think that; you would use the ashes on yourself (the PC), wasting them in the process, plus you are living and will live for 20-30 years at least, instead of saving another who is dying. That is a very selfish act. You have made it quite clear (to me anyway) with that and other statements that your elf thinks it's all about me.

 

I will not fight the notion that there is selfishness in such a decision. Survival however is highly instinctive and it is a priority for any individual. But selfishness alone is not what prompts the decision and it would be wrong to look at the decision like it is overly selfish. The Ashes are not necessarily wasted when they are used. It is unknown exactly how large a quantity you can take, so one could probably take enough to administer two doses I would suspect. Even if it would be wasted, it would still be wrong to think if it as a selfish act. There are several reasons. One is that my elf at the time was pretty much unaware of Eamon's status. The second is that Eamon is a shemlen lord. He is, when it comes down to it, an enslaver of elves. The third reason is somewhat speculative, but it has some validity. It can be expected that Eamon is not as necessary as he is made out to be, since he has a son who would likely let Teagan rule in his stead until he reaches adulthood or is stripped of rank. This has been discussed in this thread and it was met by scepticism which I understand, but the scenario, when looked at for roleplay purposes, is not without its merits and it would certainly be an argument for my Dalish.

 

If I were going to mock you I would be far more obvious about it.

 

Then all is well. English is not my mother tongue. I apologize if I have offended you by thinking you were mocking me, but these nuances are difficult for me to pick up on and I merely tried to be honest with you by telling you of my suspicions. Your statement applied hyperbole which is a common rhetorical style for mockeries, so this prompted these suspicions.

[SpellAndShield]

 

Your words are what makes me think that; you would use the ashes on yourself (the PC), wasting them in the process, plus you are living and will live for 20-30 years at least, instead of saving another who is dying. That is a very selfish act. You have made it quite clear (to me anyway) with that and other statements that your elf thinks it's all about me.

 

I will not fight the notion that there is selfishness in such a decision. Survival however is highly instinctive and it is a priority for any individual. But selfishness alone is not what prompts the decision and it would be wrong to look at the decision like it is overly selfish. The Ashes are not necessarily wasted when they are used. It is unknown exactly how large a quantity you can take, so one could probably take enough to administer two doses I would suspect. Even if it would be wasted, it would still be wrong to think if it as a selfish act. There are several reasons. One is that my elf at the time was pretty much unaware of Eamon's status. The second is that Eamon is a shemlen lord. He is, when it comes down to it, an enslaver of elves. The third reason is somewhat speculative, but it has some validity. It can be expected that Eamon is not as necessary as he is made out to be, since he has a son who would likely let Teagan rule in his stead until he reaches adulthood or is stripped of rank. This has been discussed in this thread and it was met by scepticism which I understand, but the scenario, when looked at for roleplay purposes, is not without its merits and it would certainly be an argument for my Dalish.

 

If I were going to mock you I would be far more obvious about it.

 

Then all is well. English is not my mother tongue. I apologize if I have offended you by thinking you were mocking me, but these nuances are difficult for me to pick up on and I merely tried to be honest with you by telling you of my suspicions. Your statement applied hyperbole which is a common rhetorical style for mockeries, so this prompted these suspicions.

 

Ik denk dat het Nederlands een van de mooiste talen in de wereld is! :thumbsup:

[Utotri]

 

Ik denk dat het Nederlands een van de mooiste talen in de wereld is! :thumbsup:

I too think it is a beautiful language. It does not make sense to be proud of ones mother language, but I can't say I'm not.

 

I take it you are German or at least German speaking? Your signature has a German line and you say 'in de wereld' when almost everyone I know would say 'van de wereld', except for Germans who are used to saying 'in der Welt' or something like that.

[Thandal]

(@Stardusk) Your signature has a German line...

Well I, for one, seriously doubt that Death allows one to find anything, much less Justice. But that's probably a topic for a different thread, if not a completely different Forum! :turned:

[brokenergy]

What is fixed? The knights are loyal to Connor when Eamon is dead and if Teagan is regent in Connor's name the knights will be loyal to Teagan. This does not run contrary to the usual practice in feudal Europe. It was quite normal to have regents or placeholders.

 

You should read your last posts and see where you got it wrong mate (I have highlighted the part for you). As for Teagan being regent for Connor again Conner is a mage, he has no authority anymore, he cannot have a title, it is the law of the chantry and land. Teagan is not as influential as Eamon even Teagan knows that he cannot beat Loghain without Eamon's help. You have no other choice but to help him.

 

All of this is mere speculation and your guess is as good as mine. It does not serve us to discuss these things in detail because there is no way for us to fully understand phenomena as the Fade or the Ashes, because there are no reliable sources and it can't be tested.

 

Take Morrigan with you to the circle tower and you will find my reasoning. She would state how the Abominations and Darkspawn are similar, hinting that is something to with the fade. Coupled with that dwarves don't dream or use magic (genlocks only for magic, but dwarves are not connected to the fade, it is lore) but once they drink the taint they get magical powers all of the sudden. That leads to that the taint is somehow connected to the fade itself and therefore is off-worldly substance in which the ashes can not cure.

 

I do not see value in this line of reasoning. It is based on many fallacious assumptions and bad logic. The Chantry does not tell us anything we can be sure to trust.

 

Many fables and stories of old have some real world connection. When the Spanish took over the Aztecs, the Aztecs thought that they followers of the Serpent God and that flashing sticks and horse-like creatures that they saw were muskets and men on horse back. This just an example that people misunderstand some of the concept but they still have some connection to real world if a historian decides to explore the culture of a civilization and how they persevered concepts or technology of the time. I could give more examples but the main point is that the Chantry's version of events have some truth in them and you should not cast out just because it comes from a religious institution.

 

There is lyrium there but what does it mean? We don't know. The lyrium itself does not explain the powers, merely how it is transmitted I think.

 

It is so simple that I don't even need to explain why. Ashes has no power, only with the lyrium that it has power that is so spoken of. Oghren and Morrigan state this so clearly I don't think I could be bother explaining anymore.

 

As long as the Joining is such a burden the taint is still something you would want to get rid of if possible given certain dispositions regarding the Wardens. Especially because the protagonist does not always know about Avernus' projects prior to Haven. Also, Avernus could be wrong. I also don't see how this relates to the Ashes.

Perhaps the perfect Joining leaves no taint at all. We can't know these things. I can only focus on the roleplay experience and the way the story unfolds there. If the game limits my interactive options because of lore or the way the fantasy world is supposed to work it should still let me try or explain why I can't try. This is not the case with the Ashes.

 

The Avernus' plan was to perfect the joining so that future wardens are not hindered by the taint. If you want to be cured then you should have allowed him to obtain his notes and allowed him to continue with his research as this is the only way you could be cured or you could read The Calling and see another way to be cured. Both of these things are optional and I'll doubt that the warden would know any other way to free him/herself from the taint. So what does this have to deal with the Ashes you ask? It only means that there are other ways of curing yourself and you don't necessary need the Ashes, end of story.

 

Edit: It may sound harsh but please note I meant no offense towards you or your opinion. I'm just tying to explain my line of reasoning from my point of view about the ashes and it's purpose. I love playing hardball...sometimes :biggrin:

[Utotri]

What is fixed? The knights are loyal to Connor when Eamon is dead and if Teagan is regent in Connor's name the knights will be loyal to Teagan. This does not run contrary to the usual practice in feudal Europe. It was quite normal to have regents or placeholders.

 

You should read your last posts and see where you got it wrong mate (I have highlighted the part for you). As for Teagan being regent for Connor again Conner is a mage, he has no authority anymore, he cannot have a title, it is the law of the chantry and land. Teagan is not as influential as Eamon even Teagan knows that he cannot beat Loghain without Eamon's help. You have no other choice but to help him.

 

This has already been adressed. Connor's magic is only known by a select group. It is very well possible to hide this some more for the sake of stability. Teagan's lack of authority would be offset by the armies the Warden's have gathered.

 

Take Morrigan with you to the circle tower and you will find my reasoning. She would state how the Abominations and Darkspawn are similar, hinting that is something to with the fade. Coupled with that dwarves don't dream or use magic (genlocks only for magic, but dwarves are not connected to the fade, it is lore) but once they drink the taint they get magical powers all of the sudden. That leads to that the taint is somehow connected to the fade itself and therefore is off-worldly substance in which the ashes can not cure.

 

Again, this is all mere speculation and your guess is as good as mine. It does not serve us to discuss these things in detail. There are so many possible loopholes in these theories that it would be silly to try and deduce anything meaningful from these various snippets of information that you collected. You may do so for yourself, but please don't think that it is compelling in any way to me.

 

I do not see value in this line of reasoning. It is based on many fallacious assumptions and bad logic. The Chantry does not tell us anything we can be sure to trust.

 

Many fables and stories of old have some real world connection. When the Spanish took over the Aztecs, the Aztecs thought that they followers of the Serpent God and that flashing sticks and horse-like creatures that they saw were muskets and men on horse back. This just an example that people misunderstand some of the concept but they still have some connection to real world if a historian decides to explore the culture of a civilization and how they persevered concepts or technology of the time. I could give more examples but the main point is that the Chantry's version of events have some truth in them and you should not cast out just because it comes from a religious institution.

 

But I should cast it out exactly because it comes from a religious institution. They have a huge incentive to tell the most elaborate lies, so it would not be prudent to accept anything they say as true until it has been demonstrated.

 

There is lyrium there but what does it mean? We don't know. The lyrium itself does not explain the powers, merely how it is transmitted I think.

 

It is so simple that I don't even need to explain why. Ashes has no power, only with the lyrium that it has power that is so spoken of. Oghren and Morrigan state this so clearly I don't think I could be bother explaining anymore.

 

You do not address my point or you do not understand my point. We can only conclude that the lyriums plays a role, but not *what* role the lyrium plays, so it does not tell us anything meaningful except that there is magic involved with the Ashes.

 

As long as the Joining is such a burden the taint is still something you would want to get rid of if possible given certain dispositions regarding the Wardens. Especially because the protagonist does not always know about Avernus' projects prior to Haven. Also, Avernus could be wrong. I also don't see how this relates to the Ashes.

Perhaps the perfect Joining leaves no taint at all. We can't know these things. I can only focus on the roleplay experience and the way the story unfolds there. If the game limits my interactive options because of lore or the way the fantasy world is supposed to work it should still let me try or explain why I can't try. This is not the case with the Ashes.

 

The Avernus' plan was to perfect the joining so that future wardens are not hindered by the taint. If you want to be cured then you should have allowed him to obtain his notes and allowed him to continue with his research as this is the only way you could be cured or you could read The Calling and see another way to be cured. Both of these things are optional and I'll doubt that the warden would know any other way to free him/herself from the taint. So what does this have to deal with the Ashes you ask? It only means that there are other ways of curing yourself and you don't necessary need the Ashes, end of story.

 

It seems that your point was to show that there are other ways to get rid of the taint. I know this. But these are arguments that would apply to an all-knowing PC and this is not the scenario we are looking at.

 

Edit: It may sound harsh but please note I meant no offense towards you or your opinion. I'm just tying to explain my line of reasoning from my point of view about the ashes and it's purpose. I love playing hardball...sometimes :biggrin:

 

I am not offended. I do think you are awfully certain that your views are correct even though there are no sound foundations for your views.

[brokenergy]

I use the lore that I have been given and the words that the writers said in the forums. So don't you think that I don't do my research before writing this up. Even though they are not hard evidence it is what we are given and until DA2 or that Anime comes out that contradicts my line of reasoning, what I stated to you thus far are the facts that are given. If I was one of the writers I would give much more but since I'm not, I guess I really don't want to go to speculation as this is the spoiler not role-play.

[Utotri]

I use the lore that I have been given and the words that the writers said in the forums. So don't you think that I don't do my research before writing this up. Even though they are not hard evidence it is what we are given and until DA2 or that Anime comes out that contradicts my line of reasoning, what I stated to you thus far are the facts that are given. If I was one of the writers I would give much more but since I'm not, I guess I really don't want to go to speculation as this is the spoiler not role-play.

You have done your research, I can see that. Also, by all means do speculate, because it will probably only result in a deeper understanding of the DA world. It is just that it does not really add anything to the problem I have posed in this thread.

 

The problem with using your reasoning as a proper argument is twofold. The first is that it has potential loopholes that we can't possibly rule out, because we can't test it and we lack information. The second is that not all this information is known by the PC when the Ashes are found, so for RP purposes your argument is pretty much a moot point. I think I have been sufficiently clear that I view this issue from an RP point of view, which I think is the proper disposition given the fact that it is an RPG we are discussing.