What Is Omod?

[DragoonWraith]

You're coaxing people into using a completely nonstandard archive format which requires extra effort from both modders and users, and provides no guarantee that their plugins -- even ones stored on their own systems -- will be usable in six months. What is the point of that?

Does the term 'optional' mean anything to you?

 

...At what point did "placing blame" ever even enter into the conversation? The point here is that the modding community would benefit if people stopped using OMOD.

"You're coaxing people into using a completely nonstandard archive format"

"You're just cutting into the good modders who would otherwise do everything perfectly, and turning them into very extremely horrendously incredibly not very good at all modders who distribute their works exclusively in completely nonstandard file formats."

 

You sound pretty damn accusatory to me.

 

...How so?

So you don't even know what you are talking about? OBMM and omod installs and uninstalls a mod in two clicks of a mouse, eliminates the need for ArchiveInvalidation, can reorder mods (and mods can be scripted to reorder themselves relative to others, to ensure compatibility), mods can edit Oblivion.ini (rather than offer a replacement .ini or have to explain to users how they should edit their .ini - and yes, the user receieves a warning before this is done), readmes, author's information, and screenshots are all within two clicks of a mouse... these are the most notable features, but this is not an exhaustive list.

 

No, a mod manager does that. The OMOD file format does nothing of the sort -- if anything, it adds problems.

The Oblivion Mod Manager uses .omod format in order to maintain optimal managment of mods. This way the data files of a mod are packaged together with the .esp, and OBMM knows which data files go with which .esp. OBMM cannot have this functionality without omods - unless you care to prove Timeslip wrong and write another manager with the same features as OBMM without a special filetype for this.

 

No, there is not always another option. You just said that you released that mod of yours exclusively as on OMOD. The person who started this thread tried to use a mod that had artificial restrictions placed upon its non-OMOD release.

I said that there was another version of my mod that provides the same features (and does so in a better way) that was released in a non-omod, and no other mod available is available only as an omod. So yes, you always have an option to not use omod, at least at present, and likely forevermore, after what occurred during the release of my mod, I doubt anyone, including myself, will do that again. In terms of not providing tech support for someone who refuses to use omod, why should a modder? The mod would work if they used the omod version, their own choice is what is causing problems. You have an option - I never said that choice was consequence-free. Life doesn't work that way, if you are going to be stubborn and not help yourself, I see no reason why a modder should.

 

In fact, you never responded to my point about a modder making mods on his free time - what right do you have to a non-omod version? You can choose not to download my omod, if you like, I don't care, but you have absolutely no right to demand that I cater to your specific, stubborn, and elitist needs.

[Timeslip]

I'm getting into 'insert a :P after every comment' territory here. Guess I must have reached my daily maximum dose of cynicism. :P

 

it doesn't support doing anything with stdin/stdout. You haven't implemented the suggestion.

OK, when you said stdin I was thinking more along the lines of 'omodunpacker < commands' than feeding the omod into stdin and writing the zip to stdout. Even if it could, I imagine that no-one would ever use it. (With the possible exception of you, just to spite me. :closedeyes:)

 

..A dead link. My point exactly.

That was not a dead link; I tested it before posting, and I've just tested it again, and installed it too, in case I was hallucinating. :rolleyes:

 

If you're one of the people who has trouble using PES's public servers, then try this one instead. (Which I also tested before posting, incidentally. :P)

 

So then to open the file, you need to e-mail random people until you reach someone who claims to have the program you need. That's so much more convenient than downloading a standard archiver from a package repository.

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of posting on one of the many TES message boards, but you could e-mail random people if you like. :P

 

You're coaxing people into using a completely nonstandard archive format which requires extra effort from both modders and users, and provides no guarantee that their plugins -- even ones stored on their own systems -- will be usable in six months. What is the point of that?

It requires less effort from users. That's the whole point. It probably requires a little more initial effort from modders, but if that was the whole story then we wouldn't be having this discussion, because no modders would be trying to encourage people to use omods. :)

 

If there is no way to open omods within 6 months, I will personally eat any hat of your choosing. Many years is more realistic, but even then the mods on your own computer are safe, because either you'll have turned them into normal archives, or you will also have a copy of obmm which will survive for as long as your mods do. When your harddisk dies and you loose your copy of obmm, then you loose your mods with it. (And if you backed up your mods without backing up obmm you're asking for trouble.)

 

No, a mod manager does that. The OMOD file format does nothing of the sort -- if anything, it adds problems.

But the mod manager doesn't work without omods in the same way that omods don't work without the mod manager. omods are a part of obmm, and are required for it to do its job correctly.

 

No, there is not always another option. You just said that you released that mod of yours exclusively as on OMOD. The person who started this thread tried to use a mod that had artificial restrictions placed upon its non-OMOD release.

No, there is always another option. I have quite detailed instructions on my website for how to extract an omod using nothing but conventional archivers and a hex editor. It's still another option, even if it isn't exactly realistic. ;)

[Marxist ßastard]

Does the term 'optional' mean anything to you?

 

If someone releases a plugin available exclusively as an OMOD -- just like you did -- there is no option.

 

OBMM and omod installs and uninstalls a mod in two clicks of a mouse, eliminates the need for ArchiveInvalidation, can reorder mods (and mods can be scripted to reorder themselves relative to others, to ensure compatibility), mods can edit Oblivion.ini (rather than offer a replacement .ini or have to explain to users how they should edit their .ini - and yes, the user receieves a warning before this is done)

 

...That's entirely in the hands of whatever mod manager the user has installed.

 

readmes, author's information, and screenshots are all within two clicks of a mouse...

 

...As they would be in an archiver.

 

This way the data files of a mod are packaged together with the .esp, and OBMM knows which data files go with which .esp.

 

Standard archive formats provide the exact same functionality.

 

OK, when you said stdin I was thinking more along the lines of 'omodunpacker < commands' than feeding the omod into stdin and writing the zip to stdout.

 

I'm not going to explain the basic mechanics of pipes to you. You're going to need to look elsewhere for that.

 

this

 

That's nice, but if you'll notice, I've already spent my fair share of time searching for that particular utility (on a few occasions), and I've linked to that same site in the past. In fact, since Google's cache indicates that the site is associated with MWEE by linkage only, it would be a fair assumption to make that my linking to it on this site that many times drove up its rank in the search results for that particular term.

 

Speculation aside, I just used that because it's an easy example that I'm quite familiar with -- you try sizing up the prospects for searching for examples of things that have disappeared off the face of the planet. My point is no less valid.

 

It requires less effort from users.

 

Compared with "extract to your Data directory?" I think not.

 

omods are a part of obmm, and are required for it to do its job correctly.

 

I don't see why you can't duplicate (or even enhance) this fuctionality using a stardard archive format, with an ObMM script at root.

[DragoonWraith]

If someone releases a plugin available exclusively as an OMOD -- just like you did -- there is no option.

What does that have to do with Timeslip, though? That would be a modder's decision, not his. I was referring to your accusation of him forcing OMOD on you, which is completely ludicrous. Yes, I am removing an option from you because you have no right to that option to begin with. A point you still haven't addressed, because you can't, because you don't have any right to a non-omod.

 

...That's entirely in the hands of whatever mod manager the user has installed.

The omod format is a part of OBMM. No other manager has the functionality of OBMM.

 

...As they would be in an archiver.

No, it's really not. An archive bundles the files together, but doesn't know what to do with them. OBMM does know what to do with the files in a .omod, which no archiver can say.

 

Standard archive formats provide the exact same functionality.

No, they really don't. OBMM installs and uninstalls omod's automatically. They also reorder the mods as necessary for compatibility, and a number of other features I've already mentioned.

 

That's nice, but if you'll notice, I've already spent my fair share of time searching for that particular utility (on a few occasions), and I've linked to that same site in the past. In fact, since Google's cache indicates that the site is associated with MWEE by linkage only, it would be a fair assumption to make that my linking to it on this site that many times drove up its rank in the search results for that particular term.

 

Speculation aside, I just used that because it's an easy example that I'm quite familiar with -- you try sizing up the prospects for searching for examples of things that have disappeared off the face of the planet. My point is no less valid.

Your ability to completely ignore other's valid arguments when you do not have any method of countering them is almost impressive, if it wasn't so pathetic.

 

Compared with "extract to your Data directory?" I think not.

Compared to digging through my Data folder, figuring out when I need to add to ArchiveInvalidation.txt, filling all of that out, and it still not working? Not even remotely harder, in fact, far, far easier.

 

I don't see why you can't duplicate (or even enhance) this fuctionality using a stardard archive format, with an ObMM script at root.

If you can do it better or without the requirements of .omod's or .NET, you are welcome to do so. Until such a time that you have, however, speculation is nothing more than that, and does not constitute any kind of rebuttal or argument.

[Marxist ßastard]

OBMM installs and uninstalls omod's automatically. They also reorder the mods as necessary for compatibility, and a number of other features I've already mentioned.

 

Compared to digging through my Data folder, figuring out when I need to add to ArchiveInvalidation.txt, filling all of that out, and it still not working?

 

Okay, let me spell this out for you, since you're such an important person and can't be bothered to read threads before posting in them:

 

This isn't about Oblivion Mod Manager. I'm sure that Oblivion Mod Manager is passable software. The problem is that OMOD archives store the bulk of a plugin in two uncompressable files that create unnecessary data redundancies both between themselves and in the headers of the OMOD file, and make it so that an OMOD is unreadable using stardard tools -- note that all parts of an OMOD except these two files are completely readable using standard tools. Now, it appears to me that you were operating under the assumption that these two files contain magical pixies that set up the mod in question automatically when the OMOD file is accessed in memory. This is not true.

 

If the next version of Oblivion Mod Manager were to create OMODs that either stored these two files in a standard archive format, or -- even better -- integrated them into the OMOD itself, OMODs would be slightly smaller as a result. The resulting OMODs would also then be completely stardard in format, and they could thus be extracted and converted using tools other than the specialized ones provided by Timeslip, on systems that don't completely accomodate his strange choice of programming language. Were that to be possible, modders wouldn't need to supply their works in multiple formats anymore. If these files were integrated into the OMOD itself, it would also mean that support for the legacy deflate compression method could be dropped from Oblivion Mod Manager, cutting down on its size. That's not to mention that OMOD files would be exponentially easier to work with in future mod managers. Now, it appears to me that you are also operating under the assumption that moving these files to a standardized format would kill the aforementioned magical pixies. This is not true, especially keeping in mind my previous assertion that there were, in fact, no magical pixies to begin with.

 

Let me make this absolutely and perfectly clear: REMOVING THE UNNECESSARY FINAL LAYER OF COMPRESSION FROM THE DATA FILES IN AN OMOD WILL NOT KILL ANY MAGICAL PIXIES. FURTHERMORE, IT IS DOUBTFUL THAT THERE WAS ANY SIGNIFICANT MAGICAL PIXIE POPULATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[ChatNoir2]

That's nice, but if you'll notice, I've already spent my fair share of time searching for that particular utility (on a few occasions), and I've linked to that same site in the past. In fact, since Google's cache indicates that the site is associated with MWEE by linkage only, it would be a fair assumption to make that my linking to it on this site that many times drove up its rank in the search results for that particular term.

 

Speculation aside, I just used that because it's an easy example that I'm quite familiar with -- you try sizing up the prospects for searching for examples of things that have disappeared off the face of the planet. My point is no less valid.

 

Twaddle.

 

1. All pages indexed by Google are associated to keyword searches primarily by page content.

 

2. Google's cache does not indicate that the site is associated by links only.

 

3. Google cache indicates its been linked to by four other sites, none of which is this one.

 

4. Links have low importance in Google search rankings rather they are based on keyword density and where links occur their influence on the rankings are based on relevance and quality of content .

 

5. You get similar results for "morrowind enchanted editor" (both with and without quotes) from other search engines that don't use Google's database.

 

6. Your point on applications disappearing is also flawed. As it would only be a problem if (i) a large portion of modders decide to use OBMM, AND (ii) release their mods as OMOD only AND (iii) OBMM is unavailable from TES resource sites like PES and TESSOURCE.

 

Should that situation ever arise then (i) If the modding scene for Oblivion is still going then new resource sites will most likely be formed (if they're not then mod distribution is fubar'ed) AND (ii) there will be a large portion of modders who will be able to upload OBMM if Timeslip isn't around (AND if no-one else has taken on developement).

 

Even if Timeslip quits right now ... OBMM and OMODs can still be downloaded, installed and used until both TESSource and PES close down and delete their DBs.

 

7. If you have a problem with modders only releasing .omod versions of the MODS, may I suggest that you do what I would do and take it up with the modder instead.

 

Okay, let me spell this out for you, since you're such an important person and can't be bothered to read threads before posting in them:

 

This isn't about Oblivion Mod Manager. I'm sure that Oblivion Mod Manager is passable software. The problem is that OMOD archives store the bulk of a plugin in two uncompressable files that create unnecessary data redundancies both between themselves and in the headers of the OMOD file, and make it so that an OMOD is unreadable using stardard tools -- note that all parts of an OMOD except these two files are completely readable using standard tools. Now, it appears to me that you were operating under the assumption that these two files contain magical pixies that set up the mod in question automatically when the OMOD file is accessed in memory. This is not true.

 

If the next version of Oblivion Mod Manager were to create OMODs that either stored these two files in a standard archive format, or -- even better -- integrated them into the OMOD itself, OMODs would be slightly smaller as a result. The resulting OMODs would also then be completely stardard in format, and they could thus be extracted and converted using tools other than the specialized ones provided by Timeslip, on systems that don't completely accomodate his strange choice of programming language. Were that to be possible, modders wouldn't need to supply their works in multiple formats anymore. If these files were integrated into the OMOD itself, it would also mean that support for the legacy deflate compression method could be dropped from Oblivion Mod Manager, cutting down on its size. That's not to mention that OMOD files would be exponentially easier to work with in future mod managers. Now, it appears to me that you are also operating under the assumption that moving these files to a standardized format would kill the aforementioned magical pixies. This is not true, especially keeping in mind my previous assertion that there were, in fact, no magical pixies to begin with.

 

Let me make this absolutely and perfectly clear: REMOVING THE UNNECESSARY FINAL LAYER OF COMPRESSION FROM THE DATA FILES IN AN OMOD WILL NOT KILL ANY MAGICAL PIXIES. FURTHERMORE, IT IS DOUBTFUL THAT THERE WAS ANY SIGNIFICANT MAGICAL PIXIE POPULATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

Well it is to do with OBMM, as the OMOD archive is the archive format of OBMM. OBMM can change the load order of and activate/deactivate .esp files that have been installed from a zip or rar archive but it can't install or uninstall them.

 

Stop using file size as an argument ... even for modem users it isn't one. As an example:

 

Bag of Holding mod

original zipped: 2kb

as an omod: 3kb

 

Kumiko Manor 1.5b

original zipped: 509kb

as an omod: 488kb

 

Book Placement 1.0

original rarred: 977kb

as an omod: 459kb

 

Kill Bill Katanas

original 7zip: 1,018kb

as an omod: 1,020kb

 

Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul 1.23

original zipped: 18,202kb

as an omod: 15,343kb

 

So on the whole omods are a couple of kb more than the same files under native 7zip compression, big deal! Especially considering that only 7 out of the 150 mods I've downloaded were available as 7zip files, and the rest take up 70mb less space on my drive as omods.

 

Your point about the omods being not easily readable by common programs is the only valid point concerning omods (who wants to mess with a hex editor), its just your post are so overloaded in vitriol, sarcasm and misinformation that you have to force yourself to read through the rubbish to hopefully see where the point is.

[DragoonWraith]

Okay, let me spell this out for you, since you're such an important person and can't be bothered to read threads before posting in them:

 

This isn't about Oblivion Mod Manager. I'm sure that Oblivion Mod Manager is passable software. The problem is that OMOD archives store the bulk of a plugin in two uncompressable files that create unnecessary data redundancies both between themselves and in the headers of the OMOD file, and make it so that an OMOD is unreadable using stardard tools -- note that all parts of an OMOD except these two files are completely readable using standard tools. Now, it appears to me that you were operating under the assumption that these two files contain magical pixies that set up the mod in question automatically when the OMOD file is accessed in memory. This is not true.

 

If the next version of Oblivion Mod Manager were to create OMODs that either stored these two files in a standard archive format, or -- even better -- integrated them into the OMOD itself, OMODs would be slightly smaller as a result. The resulting OMODs would also then be completely stardard in format, and they could thus be extracted and converted using tools other than the specialized ones provided by Timeslip, on systems that don't completely accomodate his strange choice of programming language. Were that to be possible, modders wouldn't need to supply their works in multiple formats anymore. If these files were integrated into the OMOD itself, it would also mean that support for the legacy deflate compression method could be dropped from Oblivion Mod Manager, cutting down on its size. That's not to mention that OMOD files would be exponentially easier to work with in future mod managers. Now, it appears to me that you are also operating under the assumption that moving these files to a standardized format would kill the aforementioned magical pixies. This is not true, especially keeping in mind my previous assertion that there were, in fact, no magical pixies to begin with.

 

Let me make this absolutely and perfectly clear: REMOVING THE UNNECESSARY FINAL LAYER OF COMPRESSION FROM THE DATA FILES IN AN OMOD WILL NOT KILL ANY MAGICAL PIXIES. FURTHERMORE, IT IS DOUBTFUL THAT THERE WAS ANY SIGNIFICANT MAGICAL PIXIE POPULATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

First, if anyone is to be accused of not reading the thread/ignoring others' points, that would be you.

 

Second, you cannot consider OMODs without OBMM. That's pointless. Yes, without OBMM, OMODs are useless. That says nothing, however, since OMODs are a part of OBMM. A large part of OBMM's functionality is dependant on OMODs, because it is the only way OBMM can keep track of which files are associated with which .esp.

 

Third, you claim that this can be done without using an archive that cannot be openned by standard archiver programs - I don't know anything about it. But I would imagine that if Timeslip knew of a way to do so, he would have, since it would save everyone, himself included, a lot of trouble. Now, there exists two possibilities here - he's right, you need to do it his way, and you're just talking and yelling, or, you're right, there's something he didn't see or understand or know, and OMODs can be made such that they can be openned with normal archiver programs/OBMM can be made to understand normal archives. Considering that Timeslip has been working on this for months, and has made a number of amazingly useful programs for Morrowind and Oblivion, and you are just here trashing his work because you don't like it and have done nothing for anyone, seems like it's far more likely that he's got it right, and you're missing something.

 

However, if you do know of a way to make OBMM/OMODs better by making OMODs readable by standard archives, you should be trying to suggest this to Timeslip, rather than your immature attempts at 'winning' this argument.

 

 

If you have a problem with modders only releasing .omod versions of the MODS, may I suggest that you do what I would do and take it up with the modder instead.

Now, what, exactly, entitles you to say anything to that modder? Why do you deserve a non-omod? It's one thing if the modder releases it as an omod, not realizing that others want it non-omod, and you politely ask, but assuming that in most cases the modder is fully aware what he is doing, what exactly would you say?

[Stardaemon]

Now, what, exactly, entitles you to say anything to that modder? Why do you deserve a non-omod? It's one thing if the modder releases it as an omod, not realizing that others want it non-omod, and you politely ask, but assuming that in most cases the modder is fully aware what he is doing, what exactly would you say?

Well, "please" would seem fairly reasonable. Simply asking doesn't do any harm. And no, I don't think the modder is under any obligation to heed the request, but asking the modder is perfectly acceptable imho.

Well, as long as your polite about it, and don't spam etc, but that's common curtesy. Or what should be common curtesy, at any rate.

[ChatNoir2]

Now, what, exactly, entitles you to say anything to that modder? Why do you deserve a non-omod? It's one thing if the modder releases it as an omod, not realizing that others want it non-omod, and you politely ask, but assuming that in most cases the modder is fully aware what he is doing, what exactly would you say?

Well, "please" would seem fairly reasonable. Simply asking doesn't do any harm. And no, I don't think the modder is under any obligation to heed the request, but asking the modder is perfectly acceptable imho.

Well, as long as your polite about it, and don't spam etc, but that's common curtesy. Or what should be common curtesy, at any rate.

 

Thanks Stardaemon, that's exactly what I was suggesting. Ps and Qs tend to do wonders :)

[Stardaemon]

Thanks Stardaemon, that's exactly what I was suggesting. Ps and Qs tend to do wonders :)

 

You're welcome^_^