spoiler Question regarding Circle in Awakening

[LobselVith66]

Why are the templars still a presence if a Warden Mage asked for the Circle to be given independence? At the end of Origins, a Mage can ask for the Circle to be freed from the Chantry and the templars, and given independence, but in Awakening, the templars are still be part of the Circle, hunting down a Mage (Anders). Wynne mentions a meeting in Cumberland with the Circles debating to be free, so I can see that some Circles may still need to deal with the Chantry, but Anders is from Kinloch Hold in Ferelden and the Ferelden Circle still seems to have templars (as I read in the epilogue for Anders Origin where the templars disliked that he was invited to the Circle to give an explanation of the Architect). Is the royal boon asking for the Circle of Magi to be free not considered cannon?

[danscott84]

Why are the templars still a presence if a Warden Mage asked for the Circle to be given independence? At the end of Origins, a Mage can ask for the Circle to be freed from the Chantry and the templars, and given independence, but in Awakening, the templars are still be part of the Circle, hunting down a Mage (Anders). Wynne mentions a meeting in Cumberland with the Circles debating to be free, so I can see that some Circles may still need to deal with the Chantry, but Anders is from Kinloch Hold in Ferelden and the Ferelden Circle still seems to have templars (as I read in the epilogue for Anders Origin where the templars disliked that he was invited to the Circle to give an explanation of the Architect). Is the royal boon asking for the Circle of Magi to be free not considered cannon?

 

I am guessing that since there are several possibilites for the Circle at the end of Origins that the writers decided to leave the Circle unchanged after the defeat of the AD no matter what the Warden does, except of course cleaning up after the whole abomination and wreaking havoc by Uldred ordeal.

[brokenergy]

The Templars still have a job to do (to capture or kill apostates) and Anders is an apostate. When you ask for freedom for the mages, you are actually asking for better conditions for the mages in the circle and the Templars to respect you. It doesn't mean that the Templars are kicked out of the tower but it means that they won't treat the mages as harshly as the beginning of the game. As for canon, like all BW senior staff has said over the past and in the future, there is no canon, so the royal boon for the circle of magi is as canon as the royal boon for the human noble.

[LobselVith66]

But the Warden - the Hero of Ferelden - specifically ask the King or Queen of Ferelden that the Circle be given independence, not better living conditions. The templars basically are in charge of the Circle, and any child of a mage belongs to the chantry (as Wynne states to Alistair when she mentions her son and how they took him away from her), and the boon should give the Circle freedoom from the templars and the chantry. This boon is automatically given if the Mage Warden sacrifices him or herself, and Greigor nearly has a heart attack when Ferelden's ruler stipulates this. It doesn't seem like he's responding to "everything is going to be the same," he's reacting to the Mages being given real freedom.

 

Considering that the other boons make it into your story - the land of Amaranthine is given to the Wardens regardless of which Origin you play, and if the Dalish aren't slaughtered they are always given land, I'm surprised TPTB ignored this. The Circle seems to still be under the grip of the templars and the chantry even if you're a Mage Warden, and it's jarring from a story perspective. I could understand if Anders was from a Circle not part of Ferelden, and therefore not subject to the King or Queen's verdict, but Anders mentions Irving specifically in his dialogue.

[brokenergy]

There is a point where the mages have independence and not displeasing the Chantry. The mages can run their own affairs but when one of them leaves the circle, the Templars are sent to bring them back as they are the only ones who can disrupt magic. The harrowing, the trade of goods, relationships etc are not overseen by the Templars anymore but when one leaves then it is dangerous to the people that surrounding so the Templars are sent to deal with the problem. Mages are only 'free' by name only.

[LobselVith66]

That seems to show that the ruler screws over the Warden of a promise of freedom, though. The Anders epilogue is also structured in a way to show the templars will be at the Circle, not seperate from it. It seems like a slap in the face to a Mage Warden. Freedom with strings attached isn't freedom. Given how babies are Chantry property, templars have a kill-on-sight order for mages who flee the Circle and the untold years mages have spent under chantry/templar supervision, it seems more like "you saved Ferelden, let me screw you over with this half-assed boon." There's no reason Alistair or Anora would have to put the screws to the Warden, especially one they know can command the armies of dwarves and dalish/werewolves. Given how Alistair will put an elf in the royal court and give the Hinterlands to the Dalish, why not go the next step and give Mages real freedom? I'm pretty sure making a Mage the Arl of Amaranthine would tick off the Chantry given how "evil" they profess mages are.

[brokenergy]

You could say that about the CE freedom and the Dalish, but politics is politics you can't really do anything about that. Say a couple of words to sure up support, then don't do anything about it till they get piss and say something to sure up support again, do something small that is insignificant to the entire problem and repeat. The circle continues...

[LobselVith66]

That assessment would explain why the Circle supported King Calenhad Theirin many years ago, but it would require a drastic reworking of the characters. Would Alistair really do that to a Magi Warden who stood by them through the Blight and killed Logain, not to mention the Archdemon? I honestly don't see Alistair seeing out your character in the name of politics, though. He was a templar once, and saw the cruelty of the Harrowing that made him not want to be a templar anymore. He's willing to break tradition and invite a city elf into the royal court despite the controversy among the nobles and common people, and give the Dalish land, neither of these acts fits into the mold of playing simple politics. Giving the Dalish land is all about stopping the old cycle, so if the Mage is a Warden,and he's obviously willing to give Wynne a seat in court because he "wants to improve the lot of mages" why even give the Mages independence if it's anything but?

 

Even Anora is willing to change things on her own by initially giving the city elves more freedoms before the riots. Even an un-hardened Alistair with a Chancellor Warden who is the real power behind the throne and no Anora to balance the power still has the templars as part of the Circle. It's a jarring lack of continuity with Origins, especially when it would be a simple matter to simply make Anders from another country and keep out any mention of the Ferelden Circle. I can see the rationalizations behind what you're saying, but I can only imagine them if the Warden isn't a Mage, but even Wynne mentions how harsh things can be when she mentions losing her son to Alistair if the Warden isn't a mage. You don't promise your friend you'll free his people then wait until he's pissed off before actually doing something about it, especially when you profess you will during his ceremony honoring him for saving the whole freaking country.

[brokenergy]

Alistair is loyal but he is really stupid, it's the people behind him that are pulling the stings (you include) and he doesn't even relies it (even if you harden him, he still doesn't do anything about the problems facing Ferelden as he doesn't know anything about kingship yet, so effectively handing reign to you/Eamon/Anora). He can only do so much but in realty can do so little because of 'red tape' that surrounds him. It is like walking a tightrope, he is trying to appease everyone but if he makes a wrong move it could be the end of his reign. If it displease you I understand but as they say politics is a dirty business.

[LobselVith66]

Politics is a dirty business, so Alistair and Anora are willing to name an elven Mage (who, by law, can't even inherit a title) Teryn of Gwaren? That speaks rather lowly of them. Alistair is a kind man and effective warrior, and Anora is an astute politican. With the Hero of Ferelden being a Mage, why wouldn't they be able to give real freedom to the Circle? He's the hero of all Ferelden, not the owner of the local brothel. Both of them are willing to do things that go against the status quo as well.

 

Alistair hands over a huge chunk of land to the Dalish, I doubt he could do that if he was incompetent or if he cared about stepping on anyone's toes, and even marrying him to Anora doesn't dissolve his intentions to help the Dalish or the City Elves. Even Anora gives the Circle a new home and independence if the Warden makes the final sacrifice, and Anora isn't incompetent either. Your justiciation would perfectly explain why this boon couldn't be granted in the first place if Alistair or Anora were weaker people, or more likely why Alistair predecessor, King Calenhad Theirin, had "mysterious help" from the Circle.

 

This seems like an oversight to me, like the game was rushed (and that would explain all the bugs, too) especially since you can get a hardened Alistair who studies to become an effective leader and marry himto Anora so they can become a beloved monarchy emerging in a golden age for Ferelden.