Most powerful being on Nirn?

[noobshi]

I recently read a post about who was the most powerful being on nirn. It seem that a lot of people seem to think that it's either Talos or Vivec. This was very odd to me, since I thought deadric prince were most powerful (jyggalag). But apparently Talos and Vivec both archives CHIM? So I read into it some more, and dam that CHIM thing is powerful! It seem to give the power to bend the universe to your will :O. Then my question is, if Talos achives CHIM, then why did he die and become a divine, I mean CHIM is already more powerful than divines? Why did he even need to fight to unite Tamriel? Why couldn't Vivec just erase Dagoth out of existence rather than sending the Nerevarine? Why did he surrender to the army of man and give them the Numidium? There's so much stuff that these two could have done if CHIM is really that powerful. I just don't understand, is there a limit to this CHIM thing? like one shot kinda?

Edited December 18, 2014 by noobshi

[Lord Garon]

You mean other than the obvious similarity to most religions and mythologies on Earth? Don't know. Seems to be a recurring theme, though.

[Lachdonin]

CHIM is not an instant 'I win' button. It's far more complicated, and is both empored by and limited by Love, with a capital L... It also seems to be restricted in close proximity to the Heart of Lorkhan, which may be related to the Doom Drum, or Lorkhan's own previous attempt at CHIM.

 

On of the big limitations to CHIM is an acceptance and recognition of the self. You can only do things which serve the core of your identity. Vivec was a two faced dlselfish manipulator with commitment issues, and so was able to freely screw with his own timeline, but couldn't commit to changes of others. His near absolute love of Nerevar also prevented him from CHIMing Dagoth Ur away because it was the mechanism for Nerevar's return.

 

For Talos, he was able to reshape Cyrodiil as a display of HIS power and authority, as befited his identity as an egotistical power monger. However, again, his power was restricted by his own ego, and some of the more mechanical limitations of CHIM (every change stresses the ability to maintain the resolution of I Am) which meant that there were more convenient methods of power he could exploit.

 

It's also possible, and likely, that he had no say in the whole 'becomming a divine' thing. The Nukidium kinda squished three Shezzarijes together to creat Talos, and that event seems to have happened with the Warp in the West.

[noobshi]

If he wants the Nerevar back, couldn't he just CHIM him back? Or go back in his own timeline and prevents his death? I could be wrong on this but someone wrote that Vivec along with the other 2 tribunal murder Nereva in order to use the tools. If chim doesn't work near the heart, how did he achieve chim even though he uses part of its power?

[Lachdonin]

There are many conflicting accounts of what happened at Red Mountain. Since the Numidium was involved... they're probably all true. One account is that the Tribunal HAD to murder Nerevar to stop the Dragonbreak, but also helped ensure his return. By spearing him through the chest, cutting off his feet and skinning his face... ahem... Anyway, this technically happened before Vivec acheived CHIM himself, and he was a member of ALMSIVI for centuries before he found another path.

 

As for the CHIM thing... Again, it's complicated. In the 36 Lessons, Vivec states that Royalty (synonymous with CHIM) is difficult in close proximity to the Drumbeat of the World (the beating heart of Lorkhan). He never elaborates on why... But, since we know Nerevar died in relatively close proximity to the Heart of Lorkhan, it's possible it prevents Vivec from doing anything.

 

It's also possible that Vivec, being true to himself (himself being kind of a dick) is just being a dick. Its also possible that Vivec is aware of the next step, and that his interference could complicate the process, so he's fine leaving well enough alone until someone else achieves CHIM who isn't a total self-indulgent jack-ass like Tiber. Vivec's motivations and actions are always kind of hard to decipher.

[noobshi]

So how strong is someone who have achives CHIM? From what you told me there's quite a few limitation in it power. "It is best understood as a state of being which allows for escape from all known laws and limitations", how did the Daedric Prince drag him to Oblivion if Vivec is pretty much aboves all the gods. Sorry for keep asking, I read through it, but I still don't really get it lol. I'm making a movie that include, but im not really how it really works.

Edited December 19, 2014 by noobshi

[Lachdonin]

Sorry for keep asking, I read through it, but I still don't really get it lol.

 

Welcome to TES lore.. Heh...

 

Anyway, i've done some more reading up on it for specifically this purpose, and it seems the general consensus is that the only real benefit to CHIM, universally, is knowledge. You get to know things and understand bigger concepts than mortals or gods generally can. You don't even really seem to be immortal... though it seems far easier to CHIM yourself back into existence than to do other things, probably because its based on the nature of self-identity...

 

Anyway, CHIM isn't so much about being above gods, it's about being above the dream. But by being above the dream, you put yourself in an incredibly dangerous position. Every time you make a change, you run the risk of losing that self identity and Zero-Summing.

 

In many ways, CHIM isn't a state of being, it's a process. You have to achieve CHIM every time you want to do it... and 99.999% of the time, there are way, WAY safer approaches to the same job. In principle, it's stronger than anything else, and lets you literally shape the Dream to your whim. You have to be absolutely, 110% sure of it through, and if you aren't, you disappear. So, in practice... it's not really that powerful in comparison to more 'mundane' divinity.

 

Take the Nerevarine, Dagoth Ur and Vivec for instance. Vivec wanted to thwart Dagoth Ur, and he wanted his Nerevar back. Yes, technically he could CHIM both effects, but why risk himself when Azura had already put in place the mechanism for both?

 

The same goes for TALOS. He achieved CHIM, and in doing so re-shaped Cyrodiil (or bound the Cyrods to White-Gold, there's still some discussion) to cement his divine presence. After that, everything was in place for him to be elevated to normal godhood (if walking at least 2 more 'Ways' is 'normal'...) so it was easier and safer to rely on that power than his greater comprehension of the Dream.

[RobBruce]

So this may be a stupid question.

But what exactly is 'the Dream'?

[Lachdonin]

So this may be a stupid question.

But what exactly is 'the Dream'?

The universe. TES exists within the dreaming mind of a schizophrenic God... Who is in the mind of a schizophrenic God... In the mind of a schizophrenic God... It's all very inception.

 

The current Dreamer is a former CHIM named Anu, who achieved comprehension in the previous dream. The first we don't know, though I am of the mind that it was Satak.