Better Cities Modularity

[Ismelda]

We are at a crossroads for Better Cities. At this point we are forced to consider the viability of the modularity as it is. So this poll is to gather information on how most players use Better Cities so that we can decide which way to go.

 

We are starting to add Open Better Cities as an option within Better Cities, but this makes compatibility patches for conflicting mods which edit multiple cities difficult, as these patches need to work for vanilla cities, Better Cities, and Open Better Cities. By abandoning the modularity, we can stop worrying about keeping the patches working in vanilla cities, and just concentrate on closed or open Better Cities.

 

Also, we have this year been slowly adding quests into Better Cities. But this has been limited by the modularity. We cannot offer a quest which requires visiting multiple cities to be completed, in case someone isn't using one of the cities required - they'd be unable to complete that quest. Removing modularity would save us from having to worry about this.

 

Finally, it is easier for us to work with a smaller number of files, as there's less chance of accidentally missing an update when one of us uploads a changed file because there would be less files to keep track of. The OMOD, BAIN and manual installation would become much simpler, allowing for shorter installation instructions, and less people coming to us with problems because they didn't read or didn't understand the clear step by step instructions presently provided.

 

We may decide to only abandon modularity with the separate cities, and keep modularity with the Imperial City. The introduction of Open Better Cities causing complicated patching is the primary reason we are considering this, and since we don't open the Imperial City, we can keep it modular.

[ArmeniusLOD]

I completely understand your position as a developer. The problem ultimately boils down to what you and your team want for the project. While it is good to cater to every user, forward progress can sometimes only be made by putting your foot down and saying this how it is. Everyone will find something to complain about no matter what you do. I think having the option to pick which cities you want to use is good because BC is a major FPS killer, especially the IC. If you guys can can do what you want while keeping the IC modular, I think it would be a good compromise.

 

I always use the unified plugins, though, because I like to utilize all the features of a mod when I download and install it.

[ADParker]

Voted along the fully merged lines.

 

In general I prefer to have the entire mod or nothing. That is why I recently switched from Better Cities to Open Cities Reborn (The 'rebirth' of Open Better Cities sounds brilliant by the way) with that too being installed in its fullest version. And when/if I switch back I will undoubtedly do the same, rather than dealing with combinations of different mods and the conflicts and complications of patching it entails.

 

Also as you (Ismelda) inferred; treating the mod as a whole allows for greater interaction between it's various parts. I well recall the issues and questions about adding quests, and how best to work that with the modularity meaning that having mods between cities, and even just IC districts would be a problem, as not every one would have both or all relevant modules! I think unification would really allow you to do more, and do it more freely.

 

I perfectly understand why others prefer to have certain aspects (cities/districts) but not others. For instance one common reason I saw was people wanting this mod but preferring Leyawiin Reborn for that one city. But personally think that the 'sacrifice' of such mix-and-match possibility could be outweighed by the benefits of integration. If for instance, on the switch to Open Better Cities do miss a few Better City modules, but simply prefer to have just the one mod for the sake of smooth functionality etc.

 

Heh: And yes it would make the installations simpler. Those additions just added to the BAIN wizard involved a lot more coding! (Yes Ismelda I am Vargr over at the Bethesda Softworks Forums. ;) )

[onra]

I am fine with the merged versions as long as the IC is avaible as a seperate file and a Blood and Mud version is included...

for OBC... I am no friend of open cities in general...every mod using the city ws requires a patch...in my eyes is working on that a totally waste of time which can better be used for adding new features like quests, guilds and unique dialogues (city rumors etc) to the mod...just my thoughts

 

cheers

[Ismelda]

How can no one use the separate esp in the first and second questions (which is coherent) but yet answer they prefer to keep them as they prefer to use them in the last one? (where the logic get kicked in the nuts).

 

Onra there will always be one full version without B&M and one with B&M. About the time, it requires far less time to make OBC version as Vorians already worked on those and now has a tremendous skill on how to properly do that and it also started the question about the modularity which is the major problem we have to face when doing quests. Though Better Cities is (maybe was) not a quest mod, it seems more and more people are asking for more quest content. Are you for hire for new quests?

 

Anyway the Open Cities is only one option which we hope will make people happy to have. About the patches, we have a long habit of it and don't mind doing them. It sure would be better to do them only for BC and OBC instead of having to consider Vanilla too though.

[JavaCroc817]

I'd prefer separate plugins for cities and districts, as well I like some of your city changes, there are some cities that I leave to other mods to touch (in particular, I didn't really like BC Bruma and chose to just use CUO Bruma instead).

 

One idea maybe is to add scripting that would toggle entire cities off and on. You already provide the ability to add wall archers to City A or disable gore in City B, so this could be done. It would be rather complex however, and any additions to the plugins would mean an update of the script. Maybe this idea is too ambitious or laborious to do, but it would be nice.

 

Perhaps you could take inspiration from the CURP Controller mod? The script in it, "CUOControllerVarsScript", is a bit complex and deals with the activating/deactivating of several mod features in mods using it. For example, it has "shortened" variables for features from OMG, TEC, and such. From the looks of it, it even determines quests in each mod and whether they are active or not.

 

You could use it to determine what quests are available, what mod features are active, etc., with the mods currently activated in a player's game.

[Ismelda]

I suppose you are aware that we offer a patch for CUO Bruma so that you don't have to choose between the 2 but just use the 2 together.

 

About the rest, we know how to make a quest only refers to existing part of the mod but it is less enticing to mod like that than for the whole thing at once.

[winterlove]

Looking at the poll results so far, it appears I'm in a minority with the way I use BC. You see, I use BC Imperial City, BC Chorrol, Cheydinhal, Bravil and Skingrad, and then use OCR Bruma, Anvil and Leyawiin. Losing the modularity on Better Cities would be a sad, sad day for me, and I hope it does not come to pass although I fully understand your reasons for wanting to.

[JavaCroc817]

I suppose you are aware that we offer a patch for CUO Bruma so that you don't have to choose between the 2 but just use the 2 together.

 

About the rest, we know how to make a quest only refers to existing part of the mod but it is less enticing to mod like that than for the whole thing at once.

I am aware of that patch; I simply don't like the changes BC makes to Bruma is all. It's just a matter of my opinion. I do use BC for some of the other cities however, like the Imperial City and Leyawiin.

 

Understood about the whole quest thing. It's far easier to make a merged file than to create a script that handles every dang thing in the mod for the sake of modularity.

[onra]

 

Onra there will always be one full version without B&M and one with B&M. About the time, it requires far less time to make OBC version as Vorians already worked on those and now has a tremendous skill on how to properly do that and it also started the question about the modularity which is the major problem we have to face when doing quests. Though Better Cities is (maybe was) not a quest mod, it seems more and more people are asking for more quest content. Are you for hire for new quests?

 

 

well ...what I have in mind for the near future is creating somekind of "crossover" mods that will combine Better Cities with our under the sign of th dragon mods..using both as masterfiles....this will include different kinds of "city life" as children, guilds, trade, industry etc...more interaction and repeatable quests than real adventures though...

having just the merged versions in this case would be really helpful for me...

 

cheers