Better Cities Modularity

[Ismelda]

P.S. What are your thoughts about the wall archers for IC?

The walls of the IC are too high. You can't see anything up there from the ground. Hence useless FPS hit.

[Vorians]

I feel that stating a dislike for one BC city purely because the FPS hit is too great for you (you being no specific individual), is an unfair assessment. Dislike should be due to the content, not the impact it has on gameplay. Being unable to use a mod due to FPS cannot automatically rule out the potential appreciation for the content itself. Now if someone was to say they dislike Bruma because it's too crowded (as ArmeniusLOD said), this makes sense. Although I would counter this by saying that the city is not crowded enough, we simply ran out of room.

 

I think this is actually a good idea in every location where you've added a lot of non-essential content (meaning just pure eye-candy), but if possible it shouldn't be all or nothing. I know that's a big order to give people options like like and it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me if you mod didn't have that utility.

 

We do this already :) There are toggles to disable the gory aspects found in some cities. There are toggles to disable the new city map markers. A Toggle to remove additional rocks and statues in the IC Market District (unless I made that one obsolete). A toggle to remove the hotel from the Arboretum. Toggles to remove the large wine barrels which are quite heavily used in some cities. There's a toggle to enable Open Better Cities: Cheydinhal. Toggles to enable the wall archers and unusable but visually realistic wall doors in each city. There's an ESP to disable the raised waters in Leyawiin, removing the flooding. There are ESPs to disable much of the clutter and plants to try to help improve FPS for those who need it. So adding another toggle to wipe out much of the foliage in the Arboretum would be nothing new for us, it's just a question of whether enough people would desire it to make it worth our effort.

 

 

@ Vorians: Admittedly It's been a while since I used the BC Waterfront so had forgotten about Delivery Job. As far as shops go I guess it's probably OK. One thing that I really liked from another mod (Reaper's Waterfront) was the addition of a mortuary and a small tweak to the graveyard, which seemed rather fitting for that area. For the ships and docks....could it be done as strictly another optional item? I fully understand the FPS issue... though it seems to be different for everyone so make the docks optional for those whos pc can handle it. I've tested literally every waterfront mod that did ships and docks..even RA Waterfront which has a crazy amount, with no real drop in FPS.

 

Oddly enough one of the only areas I had extreme problems with was UL Aspen Wood, the area near the guard tower just kills my pc for some reason. Maybe because of the Village mod in that same area. Anyway if you decide to look at this as a possible optional item, RA Waterfront might be a good one to borrow resources from. It's all about dock expansion and ships, even a nice twist involving Dark Brotherhood ships that could be turned into a waterfront quest.

 

Hope some of this is helpful.

 

 

P.S. What are your thoughts about the wall archers for IC?

 

We could add some more ships I suppose, with a toggle. We'll consider it.

 

Our thoughts are lacking when it comes to wall archers for the IC.

[mhahn123]

@ Vorians: Fair enough. I appreciate you giving it consideration. If you were to add it as an option I'm sure others would eventually appreciate the finished product as well.

 

@ Ismelda: You are brutally to the point...he he...but I can appreciate that also. Would you be more interested in the archers if someone else had already started the work for it? I found an abandoned mod for this very thing while browsing a few days ago...just had a few glitches the author had never finished working out. Might be of use.

 

 

I apologize if I'm being a bother. I just know that for ideas like this your team seems to be the only hope of making them a reality.

 

 

Best regards and thanks for listening.

[Ferryt]

I feel that stating a dislike for one BC city purely because the FPS hit is too great for you (you being no specific individual), is an unfair assessment. Dislike should be due to the content, not the impact it has on gameplay.

I think to say "dislike" may, perhaps, be too harsh a word in cases like this. In the case of Bruma, for instance, I don't "dislike" the idea that it causes an fps hit. I just don't "like" that it does so. The first has negative connotations, which would imply that I don't appreciate the work you've done, there. The second is neutral, implying that I would find such a mod unusable. To "not like" something is not the same as "disliking" it. It's sort of like people who, in the mods section, give a mod a low rating because they dislike the content, even if the mod performs precisely as advertised (in which case it should get a "10", and the moderators are quick to point this out to people who don't understand the rating system). Even without using BC, based upon what I know about it, I'd have to rate it "10" -- even though I can't, at this point, justify installing it on my my current system. Some people are quick to make value judgments, but not all of us are. I'm involved in this conversation because I actually like what you guys are doing and, given the opportunity at a later date, I'm going to be enjoying the fruits of your labors.

 

Now, on the other hand, I know of a few mods that tax even high-end computers. In situations like this I think its perfectly acceptable to give a mod a thumbs down when it's clear that the mod is unplayable on even mid-range computers. There are ways to minimize fps hits like this, and some modders just don't bother, because they're working on the latest, greatest gaming monster from Alienware and everything is running smoothly for them. A lot of it, I think, is just a matter of cramming too many objects into one cell. That's one reason to use transition doors between various rooms in a complex building, rather than having everything in one cell. Yes, it hurts the immersion I like, but so do frame rates that turn my game into a slide show. Being able to toggle various features of a mod (and I thank you for including this in BC) helps a lot to ameliorate this problem, but if it has to be done at the expense of any quest-related material that introduces other problems, especially if you don't know this ahead of time. Sticky problems, but you guys are the modders. I know just enough about modding to build houses and landscape the ground to make it "fit", so I'm not criticizing, here.

 

Now, seeing that my primary concern with BC is the performance hit on my computer, I have another question. I don't know how much in the way of custom textures you use, but do you offer alternate lower resolution textures for systems that just can't handle medium and high resolution textures? That doesn't actually seem to be a problem with my machine (I think my problem is more related to polygon count than texture size), but it's certainly a consideration for many people with less than state-of-the-art graphics cards.

 

As for Bruma, itself, it's really a tiny, tiny town. Heck, all the cities in Cyrodiil are mere "neighborhoods" compared to any real life city, but Bruma has always felt "crowded" to me because it's so small. I still spend a lot of time there, though, because I like it. Functional changes, especially quest-related, would be nice. Did you know that Ongar, the Thieves Guild fence, sometimes gets himself killed? I actually saw it happen in the tavern, once, which was disappointing because he's my favorite fence. So what becomes of his house? You'd think it would be seized by the authorities and put up for sale. A mod that takes this into consideration could make for a very inexpensive home, as contrasted with the very nice (and expensive) one that's already available in Bruma -- just a check to see if he's alive and if not, then the house is for sale cheap. There are similar situations in other cities where a resident actually has a scripted death, but his property remains forever in his name -- more of Bethesda's typically unfinished business we see throughout this game. Little mini-quest additions like this to various cities would be very nice touches to BC, I think.

[mhahn123]

I for one like the idea of having dead NPC homes available as a cheaper alternative to the more costly vanilla homes. Although this is not a unique idea, there are standalone mods available for this purpose, it is still something that would make a great addition to BC. Brings to mind another mod I used briefly (drawing a blank on the name) that allowed the player to rent out his/her unused homes and collect weekly/monthly rents for them. With the real estate agent keeping a portion of the proceeds for himself. Enhanced Economy also has an optional house tax that can be assessed on player owned homes on a weekly basis. Failing to pay taxes results in the city guard locking you out until the taxes are paid up. Now that's realism.

 

Not sure how usable those ideas would be for this project. Just throwing things out there, because as Ferryt said I actually like what you guys are doing and hope pitching my two cents in might help a little. Although I've probably pitched in about two dollars by now. I for one would love to see these and lots of other little things incorporated into BC. Why have 100+ mods that semi conflict with one another when you could have three or four really good compilations that work really well together?

 

Ratings seem to be very subject to personal opinion...for me a rating should be about how well the mod does what it is designed to do. Never about how well my system plays the mod in question. Aspen Wood is a perfect example. Even though I have upgraded to a slightly better pc I still can't quite play that mod with decent FPS. But I endorsed the beautiful work very highly nonetheless. And if I ever own one of those Alienware gaming monsters it will be the first thing I add back in to my load order. Regardless of rating given you should always acknowledge the hard work an author has put in on his/her free time.

[prettyfly]

I agree that the future of Better Cities should see lots of other mods continue to be incoporated into the main files so that they can be used without conflict. I was always under the impression that this was the point of the whole project anyway.

[Zoar5]

I have used BBC more or less since it came out and I think nobody can really appreciate what you have done for the game Oblivion with it. It is an outstanding mod in every way, especially in respect of compatibility.

 

I vote for merged files in every aspect. I have never tried OBC because of all my other mods from which some are not compatible with it.

 

Nevertheless I can fully understand the ones who desire modularity. If I would not go for everything or nothing, I would also prefer modularity and have the option to use other city mods and those which will come out in the future together with BBC-parts.

 

A few things I am still waiting you will change / rework / etc. :wink:

 

IC Arboretum:

Agree with others, it is a little overdone. The hotel in my opinion should be a little bit more standing out and not be hidden by to much nature.

 

IC Elven Garden:

It is not understandable for me - including Vanilla - why it is called that. From the name you would expect Elvish structures, more wood, nature (maybe the one which is to much in Arboretum :biggrin: ),...

 

White gold tower:

It still does not really look like an emperor palace for whole Tamriel. The interior could be for a simple landlord.

 

Also I agree with others that it is odd, every minor city has defenders and the capital has not?! :blink:

 

Bruma:

Well, for me the gore and the poorness of it seems also overdone. I do not mind crowded, it fits, but I think it should be more Nord-like. Maybe more hints, relict to that culture or a mead hall just a little bit under and around the area of the castle, etc...

The "icy waterfall" looks more like a rivulet, also I consider this wall side of Bruma very nice done.

 

Also Ferryt and mhahn123 have good points in regards of houses of death NPC, for example Umbacano Manor, after the quest. There is a small mod actually to make that possible but it would be great such a possibility would incorporated in BBC.

I am also using Enhanced Economy taxing the houses. It is really more realistic.

 

So, if to accomplish such things for you guys is easier by merging the files then go for it.

 

Maybe you can give that all a thought.

 

 

 

I agree that the future of Better Cities should see lots of other mods continue to be incoporated into the main files so that they can be used without conflict. ...

 

He got it right. Foremost I also vote for stability with highest compatibility and incorporating more other mods in the main files. This will also save some slots :tongue:

 

 

Thanks for your work again :thumbsup:

[Asterai]

I certainly understand why you are moving towards a unified Better Cities Package, and I think it's a perfectly reasonable move that has a lot of potential for modding awesomeness. However, may I suggest that if you do, you leave posted the current, still-modular version? This may save a number of people some pain.

 

Myself, I unfortunately don't have the computing power to run city mods right now, but the setup I wish for involves most of the Better Cities including Blood&Mud Bravil, plus Leyawiin Reborn, and RedBag's Imperial City Pack. I think a lot of other people similarly have a few favorites among the alternative visions of certain cities. Leaving the current version of BC, along with all the relevant patches, posted would allow the crowds to indulge their tastes, at least up to a point.

[Zoar5]

 

... but the setup I wish for involves most of the Better Cities including Blood&Mud Bravil, plus Leyawiin Reborn, and RedBag's Imperial City Pack. ...

 

Yeah!

A mixture of BBC and some aspects from RedBag´s Imperial City Pack like Arena Gladiators , Arboretum, Waterfront district and Market district exterior as well as some aspects of Leyawiin Reborn that would be great :woot:

[ccombaaron]

Let me start by saying how terrific this mod is and how happy i am for taking the time to install it. :D

 

I think merging would definitely be the way to go. It would be so much neater and convenient for everyone and could have so much more stuff to offer like new quests etc. I'm really excited at the opportunity it would present for modders too, as it would be a great foundation to build mods on.

 

Thumbs up for merging!