Can I fight the Grey Prince legitimately?

[predcon]

One of the most anticlimactic experiences I've had with Oblivion was bringing the Grey Prince proof of his undead heritage, and then not being able to have a legitimate fight for the title of Arena Champion, you know, because he got all depressed and stuff. I mean, who ever heard of an Orc that went all "Oh! Woe is me! My father was a vampire, so you must murder me in standard Shakespearean fashion!"? It's like if M. Bison or Shao Kahn threw the last fight of their respective games!

[BFG99]

Try using a Frenzy spell on him. I've never tried it myself but it may work. It'll have to be a very strong one though.

[KaotikKreator]

I think there might be a way to keep the original wishes of the game's creators, along with allowing you to have a legit fight. If someone could look at the script (I might do it later this week, too much on my plate right now), then there might be a way to change it that he only stands there till he's at say one-half of his total health. Then he starts fighting. I might be completely off, however, and there could be absolutely no way to change this. :/

[IrishSpyral]

AFAIK if you don't do the grey prince's quest then he will lay the smackdown as normal

[Ferryt]

I don't know how this was done, and haven't looked at the Gray Prince in the CS, yet, but I'll bet he's just scripted to go to an Aggression of zero at the point at which he won't fight. It should be possible for a scripter to alter that event. Even so, he shouldn't have his whole heart and soul into the fight, since he really does want you to kill him. This is, in a way, almost a "mercy killing". I think that could be scripted, too, by artificially lowering his combat skills to a point somewhere well below the PC's combat skills. He'd still put up a fight, but not a really serious one. You're not supposed to get a good fight out of him if you complete his quest. Personally, though, I don't like it that he just totally gives up. For an essentially good PC, if you're into the role-playing aspect, here, that means you really can't continue the fight, but the game won't let you out of the Arena until either you or the Gray Prince is dead. Catch-22.

[Praxius1]

Why go through the issues to editing the script when as it was previously mentioned, all you need to do is not complete his quest so he never knows his mother was a vamp, and he'll lay the smack down on you real good when you go and challenge him..... once defeated, everything else goes on as it normally did, whether you did his quest or not. The only thing is that you might not learn his fancy moves, but other then that, there's no serious harm done to your quest and you still become the champ.

[Ferryt]

That's certainly an option Praxius1, but for some players it's an unsatisfying one. There are people, like me, who play through a quest line (at least the first time) intending to complete every element of it. To us, the game hasn't been "beaten" until we've accomplished absolutely everything that's possible to accomplish in the game. We don't get any perks for it -- just the satisfaction of knowing that we've left no stone unturned. The next time through we may well decide to not do some quests at all (I, for instance, will probably not be repeating the main quest unless I'm testing out a mod that interacts with it in some way), or we may decide not to complete certain quests (like keeping Umbra, rather than giving it to Clavicus Vile). It's all a matter of player style. What is particularly annoying about this situation is that for characters who are being role-played with a strong sense of ethics, the player is being forced by game design to make an unethical decision and kill a person who is refusing to defend himself. There are already enough situations in this game (Borderwatch and Water's Edge, as just two examples) that will have such players second-guessing themselves. We shouldn't be encountering this in such ostensibly black-and-white situations like the Arena and then not being given the option of backing out. Heck, I'd be happy with a mod that let me throw down my sword and refuse to continue the match, even if it means getting kicked out of the Arena and never getting a chance to become Grand Champion. That's what role-playing, rather than just playing the game for its hack&slashability or the acquisition of glory is all about.

[predcon]

Whoa, easy folks. I didn't say anything about editing game script or character behaviour. I only meant that doing the "Find proof of GP's parentage" quest was the only option the game was giving me. Like, every time I talked to him, I never had the opportunity to challenge him right away to a fight, because all he talked about was the Crowhaven ruins.

 

Anyway, it's not a total loss. I get to use the "set Difficulty to max, then attack and heal him alternately until desired combat/magic/healing level is reached" exploit.

[Ferryt]

Heheh ... you should have known better, predcon. Your question was "Can I fight the Grey Prince legitimately". The answer was, essentially, "Not if you complete his quest", but you know the people around here. That will inevitably lead to the (perhaps unasked) question, "Then how can we fix this?" and that's where the conversation drifted. And, I think it's a valid question, too, because the game developers force us into an arbitrary decision that they made for us because when we find ourselves in that position we have to kill the current Grand Champion to continue the game, even if every moral fiber in the player's body is screaming out "NO!" We don't even get the option to gracefully back out, and that irks the role-players among us.

 

I consider this kind of thing in general, and this situation in particular, to be one of the most annoying things about the hack&slash mentality that the Vanilla game is based upon, and I think that Oblivion is far richer, today, than it was when it first hit the market because there are modders willing to fix it when it's clearly broken.

[predcon]

It's not JUST the fact that I'm slaughtering a suicidal Grand Champion, it's also that the GC is an ORC! Orcs aren't supposed to get mopey, period. I mean, he could have at least gone all "If you won't kill me willingly, then I'll fight you and force you to defend yourself!".

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Maybe it's that Vampire half of him. You know, turned him all wimpy emo and goth.