Game makers need to grow up

[phawk69]

I must say, if I want real world sex situations I DON'T want it to be on a video screne with little colored pixels - I want it in the flesh, here and now.

 

More realism in sexual content in video games? Who cares? It is NOT going to make you a better lover because you can smooth talk the girls on the x-box. Realism exists and it is called LIFE - it you need to get it from your video games, then you will NEVER get it. I play video games to unwind, to escape reality. If I want some b*itch nagging at me, I'll go upstairs where reality is :)

 

Let the games stay tit-ilating, and lame - the real world sets in soon enough for me.

[makhno]

Fair enough, that's your opinion, but I strongly disagree.

Think of video gaming more the way you may think of cinema.

If I don't mind a few simple-minded action movies every now and then, I know I certainly do enjoy deeper movies where the characters are more realistic, studied, with more depth.

I wouldn't want all movies to be made with impatient teenage boys in mind.

[Vagrant0]

Sure, it'll sell, but continuing the example of cinema, all that focus on flesh and flash will likely lead to a loss of quality overall just because people will buy it just to %&$! off. Look at how much quality recent games are already lacking just for the sake of graphics or sound. When they can just sell sex wholesale, like graphics currently are, they won't have to bother to work on anything else to make the sales. Look at the porno industry, most of the crap out there is poorly done softcore, or even more poorly done hardcore, without any sort of story line. Look at a couple of the games out there that do have strong sexual content, sure, there are nice bouncy pixels, but there is little quality in the product. The fact that there are these lines drawn kinda forces companies to do other stuff besides sticking a half naked woman on the cover (Everquest 1 box anyone?). If these regulations were removed, we'd probably see a sudden surge in nothing but low quality %&$!ing material for a few years, that is until people get bored with it, and companies would have to turn to another vice to push their product.

 

Granted, if some groups start protesting it, it will last a bit longer as a selling point, but they too would eventually give up, or see that all they're doing is promoting the product (doubtful). Look at it in relation to volence. When violent games get people upset... their sales go up. Every time some kid starts shooting up their school, there's that same exact video clip from Doom 1 playing on the news, and you get nostolgic. It's no wonder video game companies get blamed for violent behavior in people, they make so much money every time something happens.

 

Now take that, and apply it with sexual content... Do we really need some 12 year old unwed mother blaming video games for getting her pregnant? Seriously, who do you think will be buying most of these games? Kids and 35 year old guys who still live in their parent's basement, that's who. And to be frank, both already have their hands full with what's already available. Those who are of age, and are actually going to get any, any time soon, don't play those games (mostly because they want to continue getting some in real life). Nothing screams LOSER louder than some guy with way too many naked women on his walls (Otaku's come close).

 

I can understand you feeling a bit out of the loop. But trust me, that's a good thing, you're better off being left out. In America there are fewer limitations for games, and so you have more idiots blaming them for every problem in their lives, or every stupid thing they do.

[makhno]

I see your points and I think they make sense, but I don't think the article, or my posts, were about age restrictions and bans.

They were more about the need to develop more mature games as opposed to juvenile non-sense.

 

Personally, I don't care if there is an age restriction. I can usually see the need for one.

[Vagrant0]

I see your points and I think they make sense, but I don't think the article, or my posts, were about age restrictions and bans.

They were more about the need to develop more mature games as opposed to juvenile non-sense.

 

Personally, I don't care if there is an age restriction. I can usually see the need for one.

 

Not to make an issue of it, but have age restrictions EVER meant that children wouldn't get a hold of it. If anything, kids purposly look for stuff with the "Mature" labels on stuff before annoying their parents to get it for them. Game companies already know this, you can see it in their marketing, though none of them would admit to it.

 

The point that you didn't get is that just because a company starts including hardcore in their games, doesn't mean the game will be any good. If anything, it will lead to two situations; First, either the hardcore sells well enough where they don't have to invest any effort in creating a plot, or even gaming elements, leading to porno that is just sold as a game. Or, the hardcore stuff doesn't sell the game any since the market for it is only little kids, or total losers, and even the more softcore elements in games get scaled back to distance themselves from this dark spot in the market.

 

This is not to distract the fact that there are already several small companies making sex games. They just aren't well known, and are only talked about in certain circles. Or havn't you heard about games like Virtual Valerie or Virtual Girl. Unfortunately (or fortunately in some cases), most of these games aren't exported outside the country, so getting a hold of them usually requires breaking laws of some sort. There are games out there that go into graphic (sometimes too) detail, they just aren't mainstream (or usually legal). The problem with that little article is that it only talks about these mainstream things. I would imagine that if that author even looked at some of the game content in some Japanese games, they would be looking to keep that stuff out of their country.

 

Given that the subject matter in those games ranges from gratitutious xex, to every fetish under the sun, to incestous acts, to god knows what. And that those little parental warnings on packages don't do a damn thing, if it isn't the case of the kid harrassing their parents into buying it, it's them performing credit fraud, or finding it on their parents computer. Long story short, it will happen, and some of the stuff out there could screw up mature adults bad enough, just by happening into it, forget kids. Your country is seriously better off.

 

For the record, I'm not some pervert, I was actually a psych student majoring in human sexuality for a few years (till it started to affect me). I have seen much, and regret most of it. Trust me, people being able to cater to every sexual impulse only leads to more bizzare impulses as the previous ones lose their effect. Sex IS a drug, the more you're exposed to it, the more you want it.

[makhno]

The point that you didn't get is that just because a company starts including hardcore in their games, doesn't mean the game will be any good.

 

I got that point loud and clear. And I agree.

But once again, it's not what I or the article was saying.

 

It's not about simply adding sex, any sex in games.

Just because you add sex or sexual references to a game doesn't automatically make it a good game. That's pretty obvious, isn't it? It doesn't automatically make it a bad game either.

 

ADULT CONTENT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MEAN PORN AND IT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MAKE A GAME BAD.

 

I agree that porn movies are too often of a very bad quality, with terrible stories if any.

 

Anyway, sex or sexual intrigues does not necessarily mean porn, or bad porn.

 

May I kindly suggest you read the article and my posts over again?

I might be wrong but for the second time I just fail to understand how you're actually answering them. You seem to have issues with sexual content no matter what and you seem keen to contradict anything, preferably something that hasn't even been mentionned.

Here, I'll post quotes from the article or from my posts again:

 

"In Australia, more than 70 per cent of gamers are adult and more than a third are female. But despite its large and diverse audience, the games industry still suffers from an immature attitude to sex."

 

An immature attitude to sex is also what I find in most porn. But the article ISN'T about porn anyway. You're the one who started talking about porn, Vagrant.

 

"She challenged the audience to imagine a world of books, art, music and film with no sexual references, adding: "If Brokeback (Mountain) was a game that just had two guys on a bench talking" someone would still try to ban it."

 

"But shameless flesh-flashing,... is not going to earn the industry respect. Nor is the tacky voyeurism ... designed to titillate, with game and story elements almost secondary to the objectification of female characters."

 

"The primary target market for many games is teenage and young adult males... Their experience of sex and relationships is often limited, therefore the depiction of sex is often juvenile and puerile."

 

"Pretty much every form of human expression handles sex in an immature and exploitative manner," he says. "Games are not the only art entertainment form that needs to grow up."

 

"Some observers believe the game industry has displayed an immature attitude to sex simply because most developers are young men."

 

"Truly mature, thoughtprovoking content always comes from experimental creatives, but the game industry is currently run by committees of publishing VPs and Walmart purchasing managers."

 

"every form of media should be allowed to explore every aspect of life".

 

"This is what allows theatre, film and TV to produce the occasional masterpiece," he says. "Games should have the same opportunity."

 

"A lot of game genres are becoming more narrative-based," he says. "As the stories become more intricate, sexual content will naturally become part of it, in the same way that the treatment of sexual content developed in film and television."

 

"Until now, sexual content in games has usually been included for shock value, ...By including appropriate sexual content within the broader context of the game's story and gameplay experience, it is likely this material will be included in games only where relevant"

 

"Despite critics who believe sex has no place in gaming, the emergence of sexuality in almost all online worlds, as well as the modification of popular games, shows there is strong demand for adult content."

 

"The juvenile games industry desperately wants to grow up, but it needs to start tackling mature subjects if it wants interactive entertainment to be taken seriously as an important cultural and artistic medium."

 

"few games have tackled sex in a mature fashion. No publisher is beyond using sex to sell their products, but shameless flesh-flashing is not going to earn the industry more respect or widen its audience"

 

"Increasingly conservative publishing bosses, censors and retailers have also played a major role in ensuring sex has remained taboo."

 

"Gaming also desperately needs greater cultural acceptance in order to tackle more mature subject matter. Games are often dismissed as vacuous toys for adolescents with no artistic merit, which causes problems when developers try to tackle serious topics."

 

"Think of video gaming more the way you may think of cinema.

If I don't mind a few simple-minded action movies every now and then, I know I certainly do enjoy deeper movies where the characters are more realistic, studied, with more depth.

I wouldn't want all movies to be made with impatient teenage boys in mind."

[Vagrant0]

Alright, explain how you envision this game that has explicit sexual content, but does not make it the basis for the game. Ok, now take that game, and run it through how you would expect the current market to react to it. Do more people buy it for the storyline, or do they buy it just because it has sex scenes in it? Most likely, it will be the latter, if not at first, eventually once you have some mother screaming on the news about how bad this game is, and you have groups urging stores to yank it off their shelves. Sure, it sells, but then there is the backlash, the lawsuits, and god knows what. It doesn't matter the context in some people's eyes.

 

The fundimental problem here isn't about game makers, it is about society. They can't put anything more graphic into those games because it wouldn't be acceptable to the number of people that happen to speak the loudest. Unfortunately, atleast from your point of view, this aspect of society doesn't change very quickly.

 

I am not anti-sex as you seem to think. I just feel that people's ignorance to all the stuff out there is a good thing. This relates to the topic because as certain standards of sexuality become more acceptable, more people will seek out the less acceptable forms. With those less acceptable forms gaining a larger audience, more groups will try to cater to that audience. Look at the growth of bondage culture in North America over the last 20 years. The more people are exposed to it, the more acceptable it becomes. The more acceptable it becomes, the more push there will be into less acceptable things. Games are only one outlet of media that could be used to expose people. Ok, sure, some things would still (hopefully) remain taboo, but you would still run through alot of stuff which most people just aren't ready for. This is not even considdering that the largest group that would be exposed are children who don't know any different. Some parents can't even handle explaining sex in it's most basic terms, I would imagine it to be even harder for them to explain all the more bizzare practices out there. Yeah, you're just thinking of intercourse in games, there are already several by the way, but do you really think it'll stop there if it's allowed to go that far within the popular culture?

 

You say you get the whole "quality = suck" concept, but I don't think you do. Ask yourself, why have game makers already diverted most of their resources away from writing, and programming, to graphics and sound? Another way to think about it, you have two games, one using the latest developments in graphics and with full voice acting, or one that uses less sophisticated graphics and has little to no voice acting. Both games have groups of people saying how good both games are, which game would most people more likely pick up? Most people would end up buying the game that looks better, as long as their computer could run it (and occasionally even if they can't). Game companies know this, and put most of their effort into making sure there is plenty of eye-candy for all. Since their game with better graphics sells better than their last game which had more focus on storyline, next time they make a game, they will likely put more effort into the graphics, as it becomes the main selling point for the game. Compare the quality of most modern games, with that of games 10 years ago. Even though I'm sure the artistic intentions are still there, there is a significant decline. Add sexual content into the mix (like violence has been within the last 12 or so), and you'll see the decline increase as companies realize that if they add in more sex scenes, they need less other stuff to sell twice as well. This is why porno doesn't have good writing, and why it is part of the topic. They can sell the product just as well without decent writters. How long do you think it'll take until games get to that point? You can't sell a game on violence, there are too many idiots out there to use it as a scapegoat. You can however sell a game with just sex, and continue to sell it as long as you allow for some variation.

[makhno]

What about novels, paintings and films?

Should they avoid any sexual theme as well?

Do you think video games should remain toys for kids, and only that?

[Vagrant0]

Do you think hustler should be placed on the same magazine rack as good housekeeping, just one shelf above X-men and Nickelodean Magazine? There is a difference between a centerfold, and a painting of a naked woman. The positioning is different, and the context is different.

 

Sexual theme is one thing, several games already have it, even if it doesn't show it explicitly. Actually, most of them are better because they don't distract away from the storyline to have some sexual cutscenes.

 

And no. I don't think games should just be toys. You can still release a game with deeper contexts without having to resort to violence or sexuality. Unfortunately, they don't make these games any more. They didn't sell then, and they wouldn't today because most of the people playing games are kids, or adults who aren't too different from their kids intellectually. Most of these were of the point and click, or purely text-based variety, which allowed for the story to be told without graphics and other stuff to get in the way. Now a days, if you want to get into anything too deep, you need to look at indie projects, and accept what graphics there are, if any.

[makhno]

This is one of the most frustrating discussions I've had in a long time as you keep on making things up and putting words in people's mouth.

 

Who talked about putting all games on the same shelf or in the same section? Are all books in the same section in bookstores? Are CDs all in the same section in a music store? Are movies all in the same section in a video store?

 

"There is a difference between a centerfold, and a painting of a naked woman. The positioning is different, and the context is different. " And? How does that relate to my question? Did I ever imply this wasn't the case?

 

"Sexual theme is one thing, several games already have it, even if it doesn't show it explicitly."

 

Once again, read the article. Very few games do. In short, sexual theme in the vast majority of today's games is just a bit of juvenile flesh waving and cheap or vague references.

Although a lot of adults now do play video games, hardly any are developed with adults in mind. To simplify and exagerate a little so you may get the point, it would be like having SuperHero books and a few Harry Potter novels but hardly any other novels.

 

"Actually, most of them are better because they don't distract away from the storyline to have some sexual cutscenes."

 

So you think it would be wrong to have any sexual themes integreted in the main storyline. That's you own personal taste and that's fair enough. Don't imply it would be a bad thing to have such games just because it's not your own personal taste.

 

"And no. I don't think games should just be toys. You can still release a game with deeper contexts without having to resort to violence or sexuality."

 

Sexuality is not unhealthy, it's part of life.

There could be games without sexual themes for younger audiences, and for adult audiences as well of course. And there could sometimes be games with a decent plot where sexuality isn't juvenile or inexistant.

 

And by the way, I agree with you when you write:

 

You say you get the whole "quality = suck" concept, but I don't think you do. Ask yourself, why have game makers already diverted most of their resources away from writing, and programming, to graphics and sound? Another way to think about it, you have two games, one using the latest developments in graphics and with full voice acting, or one that uses less sophisticated graphics and has little to no voice acting. Both games have groups of people saying how good both games are, which game would most people more likely pick up? Most people would end up buying the game that looks better, as long as their computer could run it (and occasionally even if they can't). Game companies know this, and put most of their effort into making sure there is plenty of eye-candy for all. Since their game with better graphics sells better than their last game which had more focus on storyline, next time they make a game, they will likely put more effort into the graphics, as it becomes the main selling point for the game. Compare the quality of most modern games, with that of games 10 years ago. Even though I'm sure the artistic intentions are still there, there is a significant decline. Add sexual content into the mix (like violence has been within the last 12 or so), and you'll see the decline increase as companies realize that if they add in more sex scenes, they need less other stuff to sell twice as well. This is why porno doesn't have good writing, and why it is part of the topic. They can sell the product just as well without decent writters. How long do you think it'll take until games get to that point? You can't sell a game on violence, there are too many idiots out there to use it as a scapegoat. You can however sell a game with just sex, and continue to sell it as long as you allow for some variation.