spoiler Witch Hunt disappointment

[TerraEx]

@brokenergy

Depends, the answer is different for each warden and player. Is it mandatory - no. Could a living warden play a part in a future story - possibly. Should the warden play a part in Morrigan's future story - in certain circumstances I'd say the warden should at least be present or at least have a damn good explanation for not being there, my reasons are numerous but I expect you've seen them on the BW forums so I'll be brief. Not sure if I know you by another name on the BW forums, brokenergy as we may have already discussed this but anyways:

 

Morri would never be reduced to a romantic sap regardless as the relationship is about equality, while she might show a different side to a romantically involved warden, the public facing Morrigan would retain much of her current persona (though this should be affected by your interactions with her in Origins). My view on the subject however is that for a warden that romanced Morrigan and went through the mirror there should be some reactivity to that choice. I know Gaider stated that WH is about closure but for me and many others it does not provide anything close for either those that romanced her and those that didn't. If Morrigan was never seen again, fine it's closure, but we know she will be, so some players will expect to see their choice reflected in some way in a future game.

 

The situation is fraught with difficulties but for those that entered the mirror to just disappear or some other Jack Bauer going dark-esque scenario strikes me as an incredibly weak way to end their involvement with Morrigan when you consider her last words and essentially handwaves the player's final choice in WH. For a romantically involved warden, it's not even about furthering the romance per se, the relationship is what it is at the end of WH. It simply comes down to respecting and reflecting the individual player's choices in the game world, which is supposedly a key element of DA. Like if I put Alistair on the throne, I'd expect him to be there were we to revisit Ferelden, it's a choice, just like any other. There are other ways to approach it that relegate the warden to offscreen/dead but that could retroactively harm a player's Origins experience depending on how its executed.

 

It's a touchy subject since Morrigan is a popular companion and LI but I guarantee you that were one of the other LI's earmarked as a major player in a future title, the affected fanbase's apprehension regarding how that would affect their story/ending would be just the same. Perhaps the question should the warden return as the PC to further Morrigan's story is more appropriate, but again you'll get mixed answers. I'm gonna stop there lest this turns into a ridiculously long post.

 

Gah, still ended up being a lengthy soliloquy - my apologies :sweat:

Edited November 21, 2010 by TerraEx

[Thandal]

@TerraEx; Knowing how passionate you are on the topic, I'm suprised to learn you felt the ending(s) of WH were unsatisifactory. (I don't follow this type of discussion on the BSN for a variety of reasons, so I'm just seeing this from you for the ifirst time.)

 

As I said in myopening post (even longer than yours) here: "Witch Hunt... Opinions?" , I thought D.G. et al did an incredibly GOOD job of bringing the story of "our" Warden to a close. Dragon Age may (will!) continue, and (hopefully) it will do so with Morri's presence, but I feel that character's part is really over.

 

And so I thought that anything...

 

a) More definitive would have been fraught with the even greater likelihood of alienating fans who disagreed with the particulars.

 

b) That didn't allow for the three possibilities, (go with, let her go, stop/kill her) with or without any child on the other side of the mirror, would have been worse.

 

c) Leading to her staying, again with or without any child, was a total non-starter. DA is many things, but its NOT "Happily Ever After". :tongue:

 

Given those constraints, I guess what disappointment I felt was with the brevity of the dialogue, not with end-states themselves. I just wanted more interaction with the person I'd just chased all over, whatever my motivation for doing so.

[brokenergy]

*snip*

 

I personally would have loved to play as the Warden again in DA2 and figure out what Morrigan wants but since the start of the DA2 marketing campaign I'm more willing to let my Warden go and allow Morrigan develop as a character individually without the Warden to guide her. True that there are some people out there who are dead-set about this and will shout till the cows come home but I would rather have the writers to have creative freedom to do what they like than for them to cater for one group. Did I like the ending? No. Did I think that it was enough? Probably but I would have liked a bit more. Like I said before, Gaider and the gang walked a really fine line between giving people what they want without spoiling DA2. I felt some closure but I would have wanted more out of it.

 

With that said we can all safely bet that DA writing team is more coherent than ME and they won't give the silly Emails to us. We can be happy that BW amped up the DA DLC budget so no more bad DLC :biggrin: (Don't ask me how I know, I think it was from on of the devs)

[TerraEx]

In and of itself, the WH ending is not unsatisfactory (for a romancing warden, as far as being a conclusive end for all wardens - no, I don't think it was but then it was never meant as such), but for me if I were to learn, say via codex in DA3 that the warden had died in some handwavey way it somewhat weakens the ending in my view. As I believe I've said to Thandal before, personally for my Morrigan-romancing wardens, I can't consider that chapter finitely closed until Morri's story is done with. This doesn't necessarily mean that the warden has to be the PC again, but if the warden made a choice to entangle their fate with Morrigan's I view that as a pretty significant choice and think it would be pretty awesome seeing that reflected in a future title. The gift and warning that Morrigan left behind are somewhat ambiguous and could possibly tie in the warden to future events but I'll keep this focused on the WH endings.

 

The end-state itself is fine, however there are examples in the past (BioWare's own titles) when the reaction to choices such as this were handled in a displeasing manner, for example in Neverwinter Nights, Aribeth is a romanceable character (iirc written by Gaider), she dies irrespective of your choice and in an expansion pack (Where you're playing a new PC) she's romanceable once again. The major problem with this is that Aribeth in the expansion has no reactivity whatsoever to the initial PC's relationship with her, I don't think I can state just how strongly I'd hate it if a similar thing were to happen with Morrigan (and this applies to friendly and hostile relations as well), so while BioWare may be masters at crafting stories, they don't always get it right. I also believe that the potential for a disconnection regarding what you the player know, and what any new PC we end up controlling is supposed to know can quickly muddle the situation when we frequently jump between protagonists and interact with previous companions. Much of Morrigan's development and revelations are dealt with solely between her and the warden, her general indifference and hostility towards the other companions remains largely unchanged, which is why it can be difficult for me to envision a satisfactory conclusion to Morrigan's arc that both retains her depth of character and doesn't feature the warden character in some capacity without it seeming contrived. It puts me in a difficult position with regards to RPing my characters. While I agree they shouldn't be joined at the hip or anything depending on the endgame state there are advantages and investment on the part of the player in seeing the warden being involved in the finale of her story.

 

What I'm getting at is I get that BioWare wants Morrigan's story to have scope and a sense of scale, I really do, but if they provide a choice such as that in WH I expect something to come of it beyond the warden disappearing into obscurity by way of the Eluvian. Since the warden is entangled in the Morrigan/Flemeth arc regardless and the DR being one of the largest decisions in DA:O, for me it provides the most satisfactory conclusion if my existing PC is dealing with the consequences of that choice, having say a new PC wrap up potentially major plot threads is a tad disappointing for me personally (and that's built upon a long gaming career) - perhaps it's expecting too much, but my expectations (now significantly tempered, I assure you :biggrin: ) were certainly influenced by the in-game events. I've no problem playing as Hawke in DA2 (though I loathe the voiced protagonist and paraphrasing) though as far as I can see Morrigan likely won't be in DA2, (Gaider and Laidlaw all but confirmed it a while back) so with regards to that plot thread, I'm looking to DA2 to further the Flemeth side of things and am assuming the Morrigan arc will conclude in DA3.

 

As I said though, if BioWare wishes to proceed onwards with different PCs, that's fine I guess, no point trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, I get both sides of the argument but my point remains the same - a warden that follows Morrigan is a viable end-state and depending on how DA3 shapes up there should be some accountance for it. The revolving door approach doesn't work as well for me as say something like Baldurs Gate, where you have several titles with the same PC that work toward an ending for that arc, so when I see that DA2 is following a similar path to NWN, yes I certainly have my concerns regarding it. I'll close by saying, there was some closure but it could be invalidated (at least for me) depending on how Morrigan's return is handled. While my preference is certainly to reprise the role of the warden in the future, yes they can conclude it in other ways. My concern, as always, is that the warden isn't dealt with in a cheap way. I like the notion that all our different Thedas' can have variance and supposed divergance, how BioWare approach that with regards to Morrigan/Warden/OGB is important to me as it's one of my favourite aspects of the original game. How the Flemeth/Morrigan thing plays out is of great interest to me, however I identify with it a lot more through the character that I created rather than a more Bioware-defined PC, such as Hawke.

 

I *really* don't want to go into more depth than that as I've posted veritable essays on this subject, so there it is, hopefully that clarifies my feelings on the matter somewhat and gives them some context.

 

As for DLC, meh, I'd probably prefer no DLCs tbh and BioWare just focused on maybe one cohesive expansion pack, but we all know that won't happen.

Edited November 21, 2010 by TerraEx

[brokenergy]

Seeing their latest titles and how they are approaching DA2, I think that BioWare is starting to grow up from a story telling perspective. Granted that BG series, Kotor and NWN are all established IPs with limited chance of creativity, I always thought that those stories were cheesy and not really creative. It's when BioWare started with Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Dragon Age that it started to change for me. With that said, I'm sure that BioWare have learned from their past mistakes or we wouldn't have had the now hybrid DA2 inventory system which people are crying fowl about (not that I mind it much).

 

Back to topic. Personally my only grip is that DA DLCs are always too short and have limited re-playability. With that said, I would love it if Morrigan and the Warden have another adventure again. It will be a huge plus for the warden lovers but now I'm more willing to let go as long as the writers do a good job and make sure that she acknowledges that aspect of relationship. I think my main fear is (and I'm sure many are afraid of it as well) that the writers will screw it up like in ME2 with LIs but to their credit they got back some credibility in LotSB with Liara. All I really want is acknowledgment that my romance has not been in vain and if BioWare wants to use Morrigan in future DA titles, she remembers the warden and all he has done for her. We can only hope for the best.

 

As for the DLCs... I'm just glad that they won't turn out like "the DLC that must not be named" or DC DLC. DLCs are unfortunately here to stay.

Edited November 21, 2010 by brokenergy

[sacredtrojanblade]

I've finish playing Witch Hunt for the second time. This time I play according to story plot. I've uninstall 'Morrigan Deleted DR Cutscene' Mod. I ignore the betrayal line. My warden perform DR and survive. To be honest I would prefer roleplaying the story with my own imigination rather than following what's suppose to be canon story. I don't think Bioware 'always' gets the story 'right'. I'm completely agree with TerraX. Bioware's has past experience dealing with bad romance story such as Lady Aribeth in NWN.

 

Nevertheless, I couldn't find anything unsual. I couldn't see my son but he's there behind the portal. Morrigan allow me to join her so... I guess it's pretty much the end for my warden. A happy ending yet it's such a pity way. My warden will be most likely to be replaced by new hero, new character background yet identical old cliche' stories... if Morrigan's story continues. Damnit, don't Bioware ever learn how to write open ended stories which leave a lot of room for expansion? Why must be a total new character, new companions, new gears and yet same old stories plots with a little bit twist here and there? Take this for example:

 

1.) Awakening's Virgil Keep's plot is the same as Crossroad Keep in NWN 2. Build fortress, find mineral, the siege..bla bla... sigh!

 

2.) Loghain's character remind me so much of the fallen and evil warlock in NWN2 who would then become your ally ( I forget his name). Thank god, they don't pick Randall Howe instead ( although they did make Howe's son as our potential ally in DA:Awakening ). Then there's companion's sacrifice involved in order for this once enemy of yours to join you. The difference is, in NW2 Sandra sacrifice herself willingly while in DA:O Alistair's fate is determined by the player.

 

3.) The prelude almost copied from NWN 2. In NWN 2, the darklings attack player's house while the player is sleeping. In DA:O, Howe's men attack your castle while you're sleeping too. Couldn't find a better excitement to begin a story, huh?

 

But let's get back to Witch Hunt. It took me less than 2 hours to finish it. The 2 main quests are pretty much simple. Not that I mind. ( I hate puzzles or riddles. DLC Golems of Amgarrak's puzzles with different planes colors not only hurt my eyes, it's also annoying. ) But it's lack of quest mean lack of replayability... Unless someone could come up with intersting mods to make use of the inaccessable Redcliff's castle, Loitering and Denerim? There are too much spaces. I don't believe Ferelden is just a map with only Flemeth's Hut, Circle of Magi's First Floor, a dwarven thaig, an elf ruin and lastly a dragonborne waste.

Edited November 22, 2010 by sacredtrojanblade

[brokenergy]

I've finish playing Witch Hunt for the second time. This time I play according to story plot. I've uninstall 'Morrigan Deleted DR Cutscene' Mod. I ignore the betrayal line. My warden perform DR and survive. To be honest I would prefer roleplaying the story with my own imigination rather than following what's suppose to be canon story. I don't think Bioware 'always' gets the story 'right'. I'm completely agree with TerraEx. Bioware's has past experience dealing with bad romance story such as Lady Aribeth in NWN.

 

There is no canon in Dragon Age. WH was released because people who romanced Morrigan didn't had any closure and yet this divides many people. Anything from Origins onwards (Awakening, GoA, WH) is nothing more than dragging a dead horse. Awakening was better off with the Orlesian Warden than the Warden. Your Warden's story ended when you killed the Archdemon, plain and simple.

 

Damnit, don't Bioware ever learn how to write open ended stories which leave a lot of room for expansion? Why must be a total new character, new companions, new gears and yet same old stories plots with a little bit twist here and there?

 

DA wasn't advertised as "follow Morrigan and Warden's story to the bitter end" or "Warden Age". BioWare also writes stories with a beginning, middle and end. Leaving it open and unresolved tends to peeve people off. I keep on saying this over and over again, BW is going TES with DA, where we are exploring a world rather than one person's struggle. As for stories, it has always been this way, there is no RPG or fantasy novel that is different from each other. Origins just introduced the world and DA2 is going to build up.

 

1.) Awakening's Virgil Keep's plot is the same as Crossroad Keep in NWN 2. Build fortress, find mineral, the siege..bla bla... sigh!

 

Do you know who's Ferrets? He's one of the writers of Awakening and his previous work was NWN2 and Kotor2, so if you see any resemblance to NWN2, then thank him.

 

 

2.) Loghain's character remind me so much of the fallen and evil warlock in NWN2 who would then become your ally ( I forget his name). Thank god, they don't pick Randall Howe instead ( although they did make Howe's son as our potential ally in DA:Awakening ). Then there's companion's sacrifice involved in order for this once enemy of yours to join you. The difference is, in NW2 Sandra sacrifice herself willingly while in DA:O Alistair's fate is determined by the player.

 

Loghain and Ammon Jerro are nothing alike, they are both different characters with different persona. Also you can choose to have Loghain in your party while you can't choose with Jerro, he is essentially forced to the player and is a replacement to Shandra. Alistair can willingly sacrifice himself too, it you played the romance option.

 

3.) The prelude almost copied from NWN 2. In NWN 2, the darklings attack player's house while the player is sleeping. In DA:O, Howe's men attack your castle while you're sleeping too. Couldn't find a better excitement to begin a story, huh?

 

Lots of other stories do it too, not necessary DA's problem. Besides HN was one of six Origins, if you didn't like it you could always go to another one.

 

But let's get back to Witch Hunt. It took me less than 2 hours to finish it. The 2 main quests are pretty much simple. Not that I mind. ( I hate puzzles or riddles. DLC Golems of Amgarrak's puzzles with different planes colors not only hurt my eyes, it's also annoying. ) But it's lack of quest mean lack of replayability... Unless someone could come up with intersting mods to make use of the inaccessable Redcliff's castle, Loitering and Denerim? There are too much spaces. I don't believe Ferelden is just a map with only Flemeth's Hut, Circle of Magi's First Floor, a dwarven thaig, an elf ruin and lastly a dragonborne waste.

 

DLCs are never meant to have high re-playability. Regardless, all BioWare games are linear and adding needless places would be a waste of time and resources. This of course would lead to another debate to which I have no interest of addressing.

[sacredtrojanblade]

There is no canon in Dragon Age. WH was released because people who romanced Morrigan didn't had any closure and yet this divides many people. Anything from Origins onwards (Awakening, GoA, WH) is nothing more than dragging a dead horse. Awakening was better off with the Orlesian Warden than the Warden. Your Warden's story ended when you killed the Archdemon, plain and simple.

So all the sacrifices, hard choices and experiences throughout the game are as good as dead horse too? What about import feature + extendable module meant for custom adventures? Are they for dragging a dead horse too? That is one very encouraging way to put. Out of several different epilogues I've came across, I can see only one dead horse ( epilogue ) though. That's happen if the player choose the ultimate sacrifice.

 

Anway, if there's any dead horse around, that would be Bioware, themselves who do the killing. They really stop doing that and learn how to raise instead.

 

DA wasn't advertised as "follow Morrigan and Warden's story to the bitter end" or "Warden Age". BioWare also writes stories with a beginning, middle and end. Leaving it open and unresolved tends to peeve people off. I keep on saying this over and over again, BW is going TES with DA, where we are exploring a world rather than one person's struggle. As for stories, it has always been this way, there is no RPG or fantasy novel that is different from each other. Origins just introduced the world and DA2 is going to build up.

Nor did they write "follow the Dragon story to the bitter end" or "Dragon Age" as it was advertised. So far all the dragons are meant to be slayed. The archdeamon, the high dragon.. nothing to suggest Dragon Age. The Origin barely mention the old god and the dragons. The world introduction? What's good does it do when it's too become part of dead horse experience? So what's there to look for?.

 

 

Do you know who's Ferrets? He's one of the writers of Awakening and his previous work was NWN2 and Kotor2, so if you see any resemblance to NWN2, then thank him.

So am I suppose to read about him before purchasing the game? Didn't Alistair said to the mabari, "Ignorant is a bliss. Thats what they teach me in the chantry"?

 

Loghain and Ammon Jerro are nothing alike, they are both different characters with different persona. Also you can choose to have Loghain in your party while you can't choose with Jerro, he is essentially forced to the player and is a replacement to Shandra. Alistair can willingly sacrifice himself too, it you played the romance option.

We still face that same old 'dilemma' about having our enemy as our ally while convieniently loosing the ones we already had. That's kind of experiece is getting cliche'.

 

 

Lots of other stories do it too, not necessary DA's problem. Besides HN was one of six Origins, if you didn't like it you could always go to another one.

I never even try to play any other races or even as a mage for as long as I can remember. The dwarves are short, stocky and clumsy. The elves are child's look and thin. It's amazed me how they could even raise a great sword without loosing their balance. No offence for dwarven and elven fans. They are good to have around but definately not for me when it come to role play.

DLCs are never meant to have high re-playability. Regardless, all BioWare games are linear and adding needless places would be a waste of time and resources. This of course would lead to another debate to which I have no interest of addressing.

Well.. That's very disappointing.. Again.

 

If all your above comments are true then there is nothing for me to expect from D3. ( D2 is certainly out the moment I read about Hawke ) I love Bioware toolset and mods though. So if you find they implement new cutting technology for graphics and better toolset, do kindly tell me.

 

Thanks.

Edited November 22, 2010 by sacredtrojanblade

[Thandal]

@sacred; So it sounds like several of the aspects of Dragon Age that those who like it... like, are the aspects that hold no interest for you: multiple origins, multiple classes, character development, including, (perhaps even primarily) of the NPCs, and DLC that provides self-contained mini-adventures.

 

Except for Witch Hunt, which has a different purpose, the DLCs are not so much extensions to, but rather expansions of the main story. TSP, RtO, WK, LS, GoA, and even DA:A are all independent from each other. And except for a few token establishing scenes or "Notes" of some kind, don't really include references to anything that might have happened previously.

 

For me, personally, it's the intereactions between all the different characters that makes DA such a rewarding game. There are so many combinations of Party members and relationships between them that I, as the player, can choose (or be surprised to discover!) that I haven't gotten tired of it after more than a half-a-dozen full playthroughs and several more partials when trying out different things.

 

I'm still hearing new banter and encountering dialogue choices I hadn't seen before! :laugh:

 

Since what you know already "know" about Hawke has lead you to believe DA2 will be "more in the same vein" (most of us hope so!) then you probably will want to give it a pass. There certainly isn't any radical change to the Toolset or the Eclipse game engine. Graphics capability will be the same, although implementation (the art "style") has changed, as have some aspects of combat and movement.

 

(Oh, and it's not called "Dragon Age" because dragons have much to do with anything. That's just the name the Chantry gave to the historical period in which it is set! :whistling: )

[Thandal]

[Curses! Hit that hidden Double-Post button again!)