Should holocaust denial be criminal?

[Chaosblade02]

It was recently brought to my attention, that in some countries it is ILLEGAL to deny or even question popular belief about the holocaust.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

 

 

Laws against Holocaust denial

Main article: Laws against Holocaust denial

 

Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 16 countries: Austria' date=' Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland.[161'] The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivialising "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".[162] Slovakia criminalized denial of fascist crimes in general in late 2001; in May 2005, the term "Holocaust" was explicitly adopted by the penal code and in 2009, it became illegal to deny any act regarded by an international criminal court as genocide, implying Holocaust denial was still a crime, but excluding the term itself.[citation needed] The Parliament of Hungary adopted the most recent legislation, which declared denial or trivialization of the Holocaust a crime punishable by up to three years imprisonment, in February 2010.[163]

 

Such legislation remains controversial. In October 2007, a tribunal declared Spain's Holocaust denial law unconstitutional.[164] In 2007 Italy rejected a denial law proposing a prison sentence of up to four years. In 2006 the Netherlands rejected a draft law proposing a maximum sentence of one year on denial of genocidal acts in general, although specifically denying the Holocaust remains a criminal offense there. The United Kingdom has twice rejected Holocaust denial laws. Denmark and Sweden have also rejected such legislation.[165]

 

A number of deniers have been prosecuted under various countries' denial laws. French literature professor Robert Faurisson, for example, was convicted and punished under the Gayssot Act in 1990. Some historians oppose such laws, among them Vidal-Naquet, an outspoken critic of Faurisson, on the grounds that denial legislation imposes "historical truth as legal truth."[166] Other academics favor criminalization. Holocaust denial, they contend, is "the worst form of racism and its most respectable version because it pretends to be a research."[167] In the Belgian Senate the Minister of Justice Laurette Onkelinx compared laws criminalizing Holocaust denial with those condemning incitement to ethnic or racial hatred in the United Kingdom and the Netherlands.

 

This seems like a freedom of speech issue to me, whether or not it is wrong, racist or immoral to question these events doesn't matter, free speech is free speech.

 

And it was also recently brought to my attention that there is a petition to make this illegal in the US as well, which kind of bothers me.

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/hol5denl/petition.html

 

Another problem I have, is that I generally believe truth does not fear investigation, and making questioning something illegal, tends to make me want to question it even more, being the free thinking person that I am.

 

I don't think anyone in their right mind could deny it entirely, but I think there is some speculation about the numbers of people that actually died. I doubt 6 million died. If the Nazis were so efficient in gassing and killing how come there were so many survivors? That doesn't take away from the crimes that were obviously committed by the Nazis. But some of the methods and numbers were certainly exaggerated. And in those countries listed above, I could go to jail for saying that.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Chaosblade02

[Quetzlsacatanango]

It was recently brought to my attention, that in some countries it is ILLEGAL to deny or even question popular belief about the holocaust.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

 

 

Laws against Holocaust denial

Main article: Laws against Holocaust denial

 

Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 16 countries: Austria' date=' Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland.[161'] The European Union's Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia states that denying or grossly trivialising "crimes of genocide" should be made "punishable in all EU Member States".[162] Slovakia criminalized denial of fascist crimes in general in late 2001; in May 2005, the term "Holocaust" was explicitly adopted by the penal code and in 2009, it became illegal to deny any act regarded by an international criminal court as genocide, implying Holocaust denial was still a crime, but excluding the term itself.[citation needed] The Parliament of Hungary adopted the most recent legislation, which declared denial or trivialization of the Holocaust a crime punishable by up to three years imprisonment, in February 2010.[163]

 

Such legislation remains controversial. In October 2007, a tribunal declared Spain's Holocaust denial law unconstitutional.[164] In 2007 Italy rejected a denial law proposing a prison sentence of up to four years. In 2006 the Netherlands rejected a draft law proposing a maximum sentence of one year on denial of genocidal acts in general, although specifically denying the Holocaust remains a criminal offense there. The United Kingdom has twice rejected Holocaust denial laws. Denmark and Sweden have also rejected such legislation.[165]

 

A number of deniers have been prosecuted under various countries' denial laws. French literature professor Robert Faurisson, for example, was convicted and punished under the Gayssot Act in 1990. Some historians oppose such laws, among them Vidal-Naquet, an outspoken critic of Faurisson, on the grounds that denial legislation imposes "historical truth as legal truth."[166] Other academics favor criminalization. Holocaust denial, they contend, is "the worst form of racism and its most respectable version because it pretends to be a research."[167] In the Belgian Senate the Minister of Justice Laurette Onkelinx compared laws criminalizing Holocaust denial with those condemning incitement to ethnic or racial hatred in the United Kingdom and the Netherlands.

 

This seems like a freedom of speech issue to me, whether or not it is wrong, racist or immoral to question these events doesn't matter, free speech is free speech.

 

And it was also recently brought to my attention that there is a petition to make this illegal in the US as well, which kind of bothers me.

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/hol5denl/petition.html

 

Another problem I have, is that I generally believe truth does not fear investigation, and making questioning something illegal, tends to make me want to question it even more, being the free thinking person that I am.

 

I don't think anyone in their right mind could deny it entirely, but I think there is some speculation about the numbers of people that actually died. I doubt 6 million died. If the Nazis were so efficient in gassing and killing how come there were so many survivors? That doesn't take away from the crimes that were obviously committed by the Nazis. But some of the methods and numbers were certainly exaggerated. And in those countries listed above, I could go to jail for saying that.

 

No, it shouldn't be, but neither should any number of activities.

Your doubts don't make much sense as you have laid them out here.

6 million is a lot and is a hard number to fathom, but obviously there were more than 6 million European Jews, hence survivors.

A bigger fault than underestimating the number murdered is perhaps underestimating human capacity for evil.

[Chaosblade02]

No, it shouldn't be, but neither should any number of activities.

Your doubts don't make much sense as you have laid them out here.

6 million is a lot and is a hard number to fathom, but obviously there were more than 6 million European Jews, hence survivors.

A bigger fault than underestimating the number murdered is perhaps underestimating human capacity for evil.

 

According to the Red Cross, they only have records of around 400,000 people who died in the camps

 

http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/menuitem.53fabf6cc033f17a2b1ecfbf43181aa0/?vgnextoid=b0d0dd081524f110VgnVCM10000089f0870aRCRD&currPage=1711dd081524f110VgnVCM10000089f0870aRCRD

 

I have tried to look for information from non biased sources, which is almost impossible considering this controversial issue. The Red Cross numbers are the best I could come up with at the moment. I do believe more than 400,000 were killed, just not in concentration camps.

 

I am not underestimating the human capacity for evil, I know there have been times where many more than 6 million have been murdered during a single campaign.

 

I have seen pictures of the bodies, they look like they starved, which means they were not killed in an efficient manner at all. It took weeks if not months to die. And they only got so much room in those camps, if people are living for weeks or months, then they fill up quickly and stay filled up. Instead of being the wholesale slaughter house of popular belief. Now lots were killed and not even sent to camps, just lined up and shot by the SS.

 

I have also found no records of what the Jewish population in Europe was before and after the war, if 6 million were killed there would be a large decrease, even with consideration to birth rates in that time, which probably would have been rare.

 

The point I am trying to make out of all this is that it is just silly to make laws questioning things like the holocaust, when there is clearly room for dispute about the subject, and that truth does not fear investigation.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Chaosblade02

[Surenas]

6 million out of 18 million Jews in Europe got killed.

You might question it in Israel where most of the survivors of the holocaust live...

Edited December 8, 2010 by Surenas

[TheCalliton]

the denial of such an awful act is WRONG, but not believing in something shouldn't be illegal, like it was back during the middle ages... and today

[Chaosblade02]

6 million out of 18 million Jews in Europe got killed.

You might question it in Israel where most of the survivors of the holocaust live...

 

Proof please, not from and not from an Israeli source. They have an invested interest in maintaining such a number. Because these people collect reparations from Germany.

 

And it is illegal to question it in Israel, but I would gladly question it to any Jew in America, to their face. Especially those who signed that petition.

 

How many were shot? How many were killed in the camps? How many starved? How many were victims of the elements or due to the political and war situation who weren't shot or killed in the camps? How many were used as slaves? How many were killed by allied bombs? And were the ones being used as slaves also counted as holocaust survivors? There are some records that say some Jews were used in Germany's war production, against their will of course, but at least they were fed. Slavery is different than genocide, its also a crime, but just not as severe. Any detailed records?

Edited December 8, 2010 by Chaosblade02

[Quetzlsacatanango]

6 million out of 18 million Jews in Europe got killed.

You might question it in Israel where most of the survivors of the holocaust live...

 

Proof please, not from and not from an Israeli source. They have an invested interest in maintaining such a number. Because these people collect reparations from Germany.

 

How many were shot? How many were killed in the camps? How many starved? How many were victims of the elements or due to the political and war situation who weren't shot or killed in the camps? How many were used as slaves? How many were killed by allied bombs? And were the ones being used as slaves also counted as holocaust survivors? Slavery is different than genocide, its also a crime, but just not as severe. Any detailed records?

 

That is like asking for a receipt from your drug dealer. There aren't any because no one wants records of such things.

 

It seems like you would rather debate the holocaust itself, not whether denial should be legal or not. This makes it seem like you have an agenda yourself and hurts your professed "free speech" cause.

[Chaosblade02]

6 million out of 18 million Jews in Europe got killed.

You might question it in Israel where most of the survivors of the holocaust live...

 

Proof please, not from and not from an Israeli source. They have an invested interest in maintaining such a number. Because these people collect reparations from Germany.

 

How many were shot? How many were killed in the camps? How many starved? How many were victims of the elements or due to the political and war situation who weren't shot or killed in the camps? How many were used as slaves? How many were killed by allied bombs? And were the ones being used as slaves also counted as holocaust survivors? Slavery is different than genocide, its also a crime, but just not as severe. Any detailed records?

 

That is like asking for a receipt from your drug dealer. There aren't any because no one wants records of such things.

 

It seems like you would rather debate the holocaust itself, not whether denial should be legal or not. This makes it seem like you have an agenda yourself and hurts your professed "free speech" cause.

 

I have no agenda except for not liking people wanting to take away my free speech rights for questioning something that there is plenty of room to debate about. Nothing about the numbers, methods, or anything is set in stone, because they cannot keep records of such things, just like you said. Which leaves room for legitimate question and speculation.

 

Would you not agree that truth does not fear investigation?

Edited December 8, 2010 by Chaosblade02

[Quetzlsacatanango]

So if you agree there are no records, why ask for records as proof?

[Chaosblade02]

6 million out of 18 million Jews in Europe got killed.

You might question it in Israel where most of the survivors of the holocaust live...

 

Proof please, not from and not from an Israeli source. They have an invested interest in maintaining such a number. Because these people collect reparations from Germany.

 

How many were shot? How many were killed in the camps? How many starved? How many were victims of the elements or due to the political and war situation who weren't shot or killed in the camps? How many were used as slaves? How many were killed by allied bombs? And were the ones being used as slaves also counted as holocaust survivors? Slavery is different than genocide, its also a crime, but just not as severe. Any detailed records?

 

That is like asking for a receipt from your drug dealer. There aren't any because no one wants records of such things.

 

It seems like you would rather debate the holocaust itself, not whether denial should be legal or not. This makes it seem like you have an agenda yourself and hurts your professed "free speech" cause.

 

I have no agenda except for not liking people wanting to take away my free speech rights for questioning something that there is plenty of room to debate about. Nothing about the numbers, methods, or anything is set in stone, because they cannot keep records of such things, just like you said. Which leaves room for legitimate question and speculation.

 

 

How many were shot? How many were killed in the camps? How many starved? How many were victims of the elements or due to the political and war situation who weren't shot or killed in the camps? How many were used as slaves? How many were killed by allied bombs? And were the ones being used as slaves also counted as holocaust survivors? Slavery is different than genocide, its also a crime, but just not as severe. Any detailed records?

 

And if nobody can answer these questions, then how the hell can anyone say with any certainty that 6 million died? And of the ones who died, did they all die as a result of the Nazis? Natural causes? Disease? Victims of the elements? Nobody has any right to tell me it is illegal to question something, THAT is called a thought crime. Which makes you no better than the Nazis, who also prosecuted people for thought crimes, how ironic.