The 2nd Amendment and Gun Control

[Balagor]

>snip<

Balagor, surely you are not suggesting that every sporting shooter is a potential murderer? I can assure you that, should you be walking across an English moor and meet me or any of the people I shoot with, you would find us walking around with the guns broken and unloaded, only to be loaded and cocked when we are actually taking aim at something tasty and feathery or furry. Should we stop to speak to you, we would follow the rule that all responsible shooters do and make certain that no loaded guns were pointing anywhere near you. You might well get frisked by our spaniels, labradors and setters for any food in your rucksack, but the said dogs would still be friendly even if you hadn't got any. Seriously, I am not sure why the souls of responsible gun owners should be in peril.

 

That´s why I say "minor". :rolleyes:

As for your dogs; I just love animals :tongue: :yes:

[WrathOfDeadguy]

It is rather silly to state that people cannot kill without guns, Balagor... Folks were perfectly able to commit murder before guns were invented, and they'll be doing so long after guns are replaced by something more effective (whatever that might be). Tools cannot commit crimes, and the absence of them does not prevent crimes from happening. A person with criminal intent will turn to crime regardless of what they must use to do their dirty deeds.

 

Oh, and by the by... the overall crime rate per capita is higher in the UK than it is in the US. Actually, the UK ranks 6th in the world overall for crime, while the US ranks 8th. The US currently ranks higher for violent crime, however the US also has a greater number of large cities than the UK- as urban areas tend to be more violent, this skews the statistics somewhat. The UK tops the US for burglaries and car thefts. Note that the UK has more police per capita than the US does (along with greater police powers). Also note that the top ten most violent cities/states in the US also have the most restrictive gun/weapon laws.

 

Linky.

 

Remember, of course, that statistics can say pretty much anything you want them to when taken out of context. A great deal of the violent crime in the US is drug-related (although the UK actually has a higher per capita rate of drug-related crime), thanks in no small part to our sharing a very long border with Mexico... which is increasingly unstable and rife with corruption (despite, it is important to note, having more restricitve gun laws than the US)- and unwilling to secure the south side of the border. Much (impossible to tell what %) of our crime is imported, and not actually committed by US citizens. The UK, in contrast, doesn't have any bordering nations, and all of the nations surrounding it have first-world status- providing an additional buffer against infiltration by organized criminal elements.

[Balagor]

It is rather silly to state that people cannot kill without guns, Balagor... Folks were perfectly able to commit murder before guns were invented, and they'll be doing so long after guns are replaced by something more effective (whatever that might be). Tools cannot commit crimes, and the absence of them does not prevent crimes from happening. A person with criminal intent will turn to crime regardless of what they must use to do their dirty deeds.

>snip<

 

I don´t think I have ever claimed that we can nnot kill without guns. Even I, a peacefull man who has never been in a fight, could kill with my bare hands, if I lost sanity.

But it is much more easy to kill with a gun. All you have to do is loose temper for some seconds, pull the tricker...bam, dead. Even I, with no weapon training at all would be able to hit a target in, say 1-2 yards. All to many deaths start out as harmless fights, but ends up as tragedies. Simply because killing is too easy

Also, here wher I come from (Denmark) we have no weapons at all within the population, even the burglars are unarmed. If they are armed the have a knife, that´s it. I can defend myself against a knife, if not, I can run from it. I can not run from a bullit. And believe me running would be the best choice if you life is at stake. After all it only concerns those 50-100 bucks the burglar is coming for. What is the price of your life?

No, tools do not commit crimes, humans do. But a good tool certainly helps a good way along that road.

As for the murder rate, this link speaks for it self.

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders

[RZ1029]

"Such laws [that forbid the carrying of arms] make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides..." (Thomas Jefferson)

 

Remind me again what the per capita homicide figures are for the US, compared with the rest of the developed world.

 

The 'prevent homicides' bit doesn't appear to have worked too well, but I guess we have to live in hope.

 

*cough* Actually, according to Interpol, while our murder rates are higher than most places in the EU, the other crime rates are (generally speaking) lower. Sorry mate. Besides, increase gun control and I guarantee you every crime rate would go up, including murder. Especially where I live. You don't try and break in, because you know Mr. Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, and Little Johnny Johnson know how to shoot and could get to a gun.

 

Case in point, recently a 15 year old kid shot three intruders with his dad's pistol when they tried to break in one afternoon.

 

EDIT: Imagine that case, with the 15 year old kid, without a gun. Now you've got one dead innocent kid and three successful thieves. I'd rather have three dead thieves and one successful, innocent kid.

Edited December 27, 2010 by RZ1029

[marharth]

I keep saying this but Ill say it again...

 

Look past the safety issues for your own sake, would you rather have 500,000 crazy people with guns or a few crazy people with guns when it comes down to it?

 

The USA military has killed more innocent people in the middle east then any terrorist ever has, and there the military force with a bunch of weapons. When the time comes do you want to have a military to fight against that is 50 times stronger then you?

 

It is necessary to have a close to equal armed force to that of the military...

 

I am also going to say this, f*** hunting for fun. No one needs to be killing s*** for no reason.

 

I can understand self defense, but do you really need something bigger then a handgun for that?

 

My set of laws would be that you could have ANY gun that could fit in your house as long as it was locked in a room and never came out. (when it would need to come out the law wouldn't matter at that point.) You should be allowed to keep a handgun/shot out in your house and nothing else.

 

So I guess I do believe in gun control in a way.

[RZ1029]

Look past the safety issues for your own sake, would you rather have 500,000 crazy people with guns or a few crazy people with guns when it comes down to it?

 

The USA military has killed more innocent people in the middle east then any terrorist ever has, and there the military force with a bunch of weapons. When the time comes do you want to have a military to fight against that is 50 times stronger then you?

 

It is necessary to have a close to equal armed force to that of the military...

 

I am also going to say this, f*** hunting for fun. No one needs to be killing s*** for no reason.

 

I can understand self defense, but do you really need something bigger then a handgun for that?

 

My set of laws would be that you could have ANY gun that could fit in your house as long as it was locked in a room and never came out. (when it would need to come out the law wouldn't matter at that point.) You should be allowed to keep a handgun/shot out in your house and nothing else.

 

So I guess I do believe in gun control in a way.

 

I'd rather have 500,000 nutters with guns. Because if those 500,000 have one, that means I've got a chance. What happens at war is no reflection on society at the home turf. And while you're probably correct, the phrase you're looking for is 'casualty of war'. It's not pretty, it's not 'right', it's not fun, but it's the way things go.

 

50x stronger than me... nope, no, not really feeling it. There's this silly notion that every soldier is some sort of super killing machine with .50 cal assault rifles. I own three assault rifles, one of which is the exact same thing that the US Marines deploy with. The other two are the tried and true AK-47 and a HK 416. I think I'm pretty well armed. I also own a few hunting rifles, from a .22 squirrel cannon to a 30-30 and a .50 for competitive shooting.

 

Hunting for fun? Define fun. I hunt, I enjoy it, and I eat the meat, I keep the antlers and skin, and I bury the rest. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, where I live, that's encouraged due to the massive overpopulation of deer. Our hunting season was actually extended this year because we needed a bigger culling of deer.

 

A gun in your house does you no good. Except to get inexperienced individuals killed. By your definition, I would buy a gun, it would come home, and go straight into a safe. I'd never learn to shoot it, I'd not even know how it works, probably, because it's illegal for anyone to take it out and try it. “There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.” -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[marharth]

Well you should be legally allowed to practice I suppose.

 

By hunting for fun I mean hunting things just to kill them, and not using what you killed for anything.

 

 

Not sure if you understood my post... By 500,000 crazy people I meant the military... (in the case of a revolution then half of the military would probably break off).

[neoxyooj]

 

It is necessary to have a close to equal armed force to that of the military...

 

 

just a quick comment on your quote:

 

i agree that it is necessary but we, the civilians of the government/state, will never----EVER---come close to or be equal with the military in terms of firepower and arm forces. we may have numbers but not firepower. first, even if people do own guns, most do not own fully automatic weapons or ammunition such as ballistic/armor piercing rounds. secondly, if civil war/revolution did brake out again (which i highly doubt since many governments has already set up a POLICE STATE to prevent this from happening), you can bet your asses that it won't be fought the same way like previous ones in the past. in terms terms of weaponry, civilians cannot defend themselves with basic firearms while government/state have tanks, fighter jets----nuclear warheads.

 

to sum it all up, civilians will never come close to equal in terms of arms/technology that the military has.

 

~EDIT~

forgot to say: HAPPY NEW YEARS! :)

Edited December 28, 2010 by neoxyooj

[RZ1029]

Actually... AP rounds are VERY common among shooters with vintage weapons. I have a M1 with about 1500 (ish) rounds of 'AP' ammo. It's not classified as armor piercing by the ATF, but it's a 30-06 round that is capable of piercing most body armors used today. They're really easy to identify because they are black tipped bullets. You run into them a lot at gun shows with older guys who bought up some military surplus some time around/after Vietnam, and sometimes still today. The US over-prepares extremely well and had millions upon millions of rounds of ammunition for a now-obsolete battle rifle.

 

EDIT:

@marharth

Yep, 500k military means that many more bodies to scavenge for a uniform my size. I'd rather have 500,000 crazies that probably have rarely/never seen combat than 100,000 combat veterans.

Edited December 28, 2010 by RZ1029

[marharth]

@marharth

Yep, 500k military means that many more bodies to scavenge for a uniform my size. I'd rather have 500,000 crazies that probably have rarely/never seen combat than 100,000 combat veterans.

What? How is the military not trained in combat?

 

I am not sure if people are understanding what I am saying... I am saying since the military currently has over 1 million people in it, during a situation of a revolution around half would leave. The half that didn't leave would probably be fairly crazy due to the fact there is a revolution going on and they are still supporting their government.