A better leveling system...

[rbc13183]

First of all, let me be clear that I am totally opposed to the idea of the "exp" concept being added to the Elder Scrolls universe. There are many games that use this feature in there leveling system, and I feel that Bethesda would really be copping out if they used such an unoriginal method. Also, as someone else already said, it totally caters to one category of players, that is combat oriented players. Players role playing as a more sneaky passive character get alienated with that system. Here are my suggestions:

 

1. Throw out the whole idea of NPCs leveling with you. One of the most rewarding experiences in an rpg is getting to the point where you can own that whole gang of goblins that chased you out of town about 20 levels ago. You SHOULD get to the point where you are all powerful. Of course, this shouldn’t be easy. Anybody who played Oblivion FCOM can attest that this works out perfectly fine. Playing FCOM, you won't find yourself becoming a demigod in a few days. You will be beaten, stabbed, thrown off of cliffs, run out of dungeons, chased for miles, and much more, before you can call yourself all-powerful. And that's how it should be. So the next time your evil mage walks into the imperial city and starts flinging guards to the left and right, you'll feel like you earned such power. This is how it should be in Skyrim too.

 

2. Throw out the whole arbitrary "leveling" idea. Looking in the menu to see what "level" I am diminishes immersion. There's not much of a point IMO. The only stats that should matter are your skill levels and your attributes. Having a "number" next to your name means nothing to me. It’s my stats that matter.

 

3. Progression of skills should remain relatively the same, allowing you to gain skill points by actually "performing" those skills. I don’t want to see this changed into an xp system. This is a stand-out feature in the Elder Scrolls, and I consider it sacred, as most rpgs are too afraid to try it out, despite how well it worked in online games like Ultima Online. It should not be scrapped IMO, maybe modified, but not gotten rid of.

 

4. I never appreciated the whole "you've learned something, now you should go to sleep to benefit from it" system, where you then get a “level up” screen, and take a few attribute points and distribute them. Why not apply the same system Bethesda uses for skill progression? I'd rather my attributes increase naturally as my skills increase. Take, for example, your strength based skills. After working hard for a couple of days at "skilling" up in these areas, I should be able to check my character data screen and notice that I've increased in strength by a point or two. This type of attribute progression is a more natural and realistic system, which (1) will help to avoid the whole "permanently gimping your character" factor, and (2) increase the sense of immersion in how you progress. Want a stronger character? Grab that club and head into that goblin cave and go to work for a while. Your character will naturally grow stronger. Want a more intelligent character? Start working on your alchemy skills, or go study and practice some magic. You'll eventually grow smarter.

 

(Reminds me of my Ultima Online newbie days. "Hey, how do I get a stronger character?" –someone hands you an axe- "Go chop some wood in the forest, and hope none of the other players find you.")

 

Now regarding Luck, while it should still remain an attribute, it should remain separated from the skills. Everyone should start out with a base number for their luck attribute. The thing about this attribute is that it can not only increase dramatically, but decrease. Imagine picking up some cursed sword in a cave, and having it in your pack diminishes your luck by 20 points. The only way you could discard it is by finding a particularly skilled NPC to help you. Or lets say you find a blessed necklace of luck which gives you plus 15 points. Or lets say you were born under the constellation of the thief (plus 10 luck). Or what if there was a creature, like a little pixie, that could curse your luck. All I'm saying is that luck doesn't need to rely on skills to increase (however, some skills could maybe rely upon luck for success). There are thousands of possible external factors that one could come up with that affects luck.

 

I believe that the “realistic leveling” Oblivion Mod represents the best leveling system in my opinion, as it reflects most of what I have spoken on above.

 

Thoughts?

[Kaylock]

I do agree that the leveling system could be adjusted, but without levels it is not a leveling system, just an upragading system really. I like the idea of levels especially in a game without chapters, episodes are any other form of dividation. One thing i do like is the having to sleep to gain attributes, I gives you a need to sleep otherwise you would never sleep only using it as a means of passing time safely.

[Kendo 2]

I really like the way FO3 and NV have character advancement. Give me my level, give me the points and allow me to CHOOSE where they go. Perks are a good idea too. The OB sytem never allowed for real character customization.

[Slytovhand]

TBH, after playing my fave PnP RPG of Runequest, I'm totally against both levelling AND stat increases. This doesn't happen in the real world, why should it happen here? The occasional stat increase from continued usage of a skill - sure... but just pick and choose every level... nope!

 

In the real world, no matter how uber-awesome you become, it can still be that snivelling little goblin you slighted that is the one to do you in with a quick blade through the heart.... I prefer that idea in a game... no-one is immortal or invulnerable to everyone!

[Dicecaster]

TBH, after playing my fave PnP RPG of Runequest, I'm totally against both levelling AND stat increases. This doesn't happen in the real world, why should it happen here? The occasional stat increase from continued usage of a skill - sure... but just pick and choose every level... nope!

 

In the real world, no matter how uber-awesome you become, it can still be that snivelling little goblin you slighted that is the one to do you in with a quick blade through the heart.... I prefer that idea in a game... no-one is immortal or invulnerable to everyone!

Well, two things. First, we have to remember that the whole point in RPG's is that they're apart from the real world. If you're skilled/epic enough, you can become essentially immortal to just about everything. Naturally, this occurs only after a lot of perseverance, but it's still possible. Second, sometimes you have to sacrifice reality for freedom. Take this Oblivion example: you have a character who takes both Blade and Blunt as major skills. He has two options: either constantly switch between swords/knives and club/axes, which would slow down the progress of both skills, or use one of the skills primarily, like Blade, which would not only halt your Blunt increase, but your Blade would increase more and more slowly, both of which would decrease your level increase rate. Either way, it's hampering. So, for maximum stat progression, one would have to refrain from choosing two skills which would conflict with each other, which limits the player (and, if you'll notice, many of the standard classes are built this way). The player shouldn't sacrifice to get the kind of character they want.

[Slytovhand]

Well, 2 things... (I'll tackle the second first...).

 

I'm not seeing the problem with your blade/blunt example. How is that significantly different from, say, light armour vs heavy armour? Or Marksman vs Destruction?? (and why is your Blade "increase more and more slowly"?? If you're primarily wielding a blade, then it's going up faster...). It's all about good skill selection (personally, I don't take 2 similar skills, for exactly the reason you mentioned - it's basically a waste of time!)

 

The realism vs RPG point... well, there are mods out there that make it more realistic, but in a fantasy setting. I recall being in my teen-levels, and having 2 or 3 goblins attack me (I had a mod that let me wear whatever armour I found, so culled the levelled lists)...their damage was pitifully low, allowing me to cast a heal once every 10 or 15 minutes... which allowed my heavy armour to (slowly) go up. That seemed completely silly to me....

 

As I've indicated, I prefer a system where your basic stats don't change a lot (including health), and it's your skills that make all the difference.

 

Let's hope there are ways for both of us to get what we want :)

Edited December 28, 2010 by Slytovhand

[Dicecaster]

Well, 2 things... (I'll tackle the second first...).

 

I'm not seeing the problem with your blade/blunt example. How is that significantly different from, say, light armour vs heavy armour? Or Marksman vs Destruction?? (and why is your Blade "increase more and more slowly"?? If you're primarily wielding a blade, then it's going up faster...). It's all about good skill selection (personally, I don't take 2 similar skills, for exactly the reason you mentioned - it's basically a waste of time!)

 

The realism vs RPG point... well, there are mods out there that make it more realistic, but in a fantasy setting. I recall being in my teen-levels, and having 2 or 3 goblins attack me (I had a mod that let me wear whatever armour I found, so culled the levelled lists)...their damage was pitifully low, allowing me to cast a heal once every 10 or 15 minutes... which allowed my heavy armour to (slowly) go up. That seemed completely silly to me....

 

As I've indicated, I prefer a system where your basic stats don't change a lot (including health), and it's your skills that make all the difference.

 

Let's hope there are ways for both of us to get what we want :)

I'm not entirely sure I see what you're trying to say (maybe I'm not a morning person), but since our decision won't really affect Bethesda's, I agree, let's just hope for something that makes everyone happy. One thing: what I meant by your Blade going up more slowly is that it will "level-up" more slowly the higher it is. If you used Blade and Blunt, neither would be as high at any one point in the game as it would have been if you went with one or the other, so they would both go up more quickly (but, as I said, the whole point's moot).

[Slytovhand]

Oh, gotcha! Sorry, I thought you were saying that Blunt and Blade were 2 inter-dependant skills... other than both being requirements (in vanilla) for levelling if both are Major Skills, they're not. But, I don't like the vanilla version, so I don't bother with that!

[DrunkenGamer]

Why can't we just have experience for everything?

 

XP for killing an enemy, XP for sneaking past guards into buildings, XP for stealing items, XP for completing quests. It's a time old formula that has worked for a long, long time.

Then, when time comes to level up, you can only level up attributes that you've advanced skills into.

 

So simple, so easy.

[Kaylock]

Why can't we just have experience for everything?

 

XP for killing an enemy, XP for sneaking past guards into buildings, XP for stealing items, XP for completing quests. It's a time old formula that has worked for a long, long time.

Then, when time comes to level up, you can only level up attributes that you've advanced skills into.

 

So simple, so easy.

You have practically described the leveling system on TESIV