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[Impulseman45]

Hey guys and gals,

 

I am taking a bit of a different approach than what most commenters have taken in these discussions.

I think the main reason that people are crying foul about the whole idea of paying for mods, is because most mod down-loaders really do not have any idea how much time and effort goes into making a good mod that really does something unique or special. My first real mod went front page in 2 days. I was totally shocked and not ready for it. Lesson learned. But it took many, many hours, months actually of work in both 3DSMAX and Nifscope to get it all together. This was not something built right from ready built Skyrim assets. Yes the main meshes come from the game, but once they go into MAX and start to go through changes it is a totally new mesh from that point. I never thought once about asking for money, mainly because my mod was dependent on a few other mod makers that took the time to make it work, but mainly because the meshes were based on original Skyrim assets so I couldn’t do it. But I have been weighing back and forth about the possibility of those assets being stolen and put into a mod that goes behind that pay-wall forever blocking me from getting it taken down. But alas, it is too late and I decided to just let it be and let it all shake out. Not that my files have been used yet, as far as I can tell that has not happened, but the cat is out of the bag and there is no stopping anyone from doing it. I have been making other meshes for well over a year now, and my fear again is that if I package them into a mod that those assets will be taken and ensconced behind a pay-wall and I will have little to no recourse to fight back. I even considered for a few hours, making the mod and posting it on Steam for money now that it can be done. But I realized that the wording of their agreement means that I lose my copyright to those meshes and they become the property of Valve and Bethesda. That is totally stealing content from the mod authors themselves and any mod author that openly took this deal is being very foolish. They got caught up in all the double speak that I am sure was thrown at them from both Bethesda and Valve. I am sure they were telling all of them this is the way of the future; it’s the only way to monetize your mods and your abilities as a mod maker at getting paid.

Well we can point the finger to Bethesda for that. They are the ones that made the rules that any mod made with their tool kits cannot be sold to make money. But here they are changing everything for their benefit own benefit. So if I make the mod I was going to make with enough totally custom buildings to fill a city bigger than 2 Solitudes, they can get my assets, that I made by hand, and I get a mere 25% cut and they then have the right to take my meshes and possibly use them any way they want to and I would never get the proper compensation for all the time and work that went into them. That is no deal at all. I would rather give them away for free than let then take them from me. But again I will be faced with the very real possibility of them being stolen and going where I don't want them to. The main issues here are that we Modder’s are all walking a fine line. If we make totally custom content for our mods we take a very big risk of those assets being stolen and placed somewhere we can’t stop them from being used. Meaning some unethical modder taking those assets and repackaging a mod with those assets and taking credit for them. On the free mod sights it fairly easy to get stolen content taken down, that will not be the case with the pay-for Workshop. Of course there are ways to bury your own identifying marks into the meshes. Placing your initials into the nif files or putting small hidden water marks on the textures and so on. But I am not so sure that Valve even when presented with this proof of ownership would comply. They are going to look at what kind of money that mod might be making and just blow us off. I can’t afford a copyright attorney and no other mod author can either. I think many of the mod makers that decided to jump on the Steam bandwagon got a false sense that their mods would be protected on the Workshop from other predatory mod makers. But the simple truth is they put their mods in the hands of the biggest predator of mods there is. There are so many mods on that site that belong to someone else and have been uploaded without permission. These are the issues that I and every other mod maker must now weigh every time we load the Creation Kit and start to place our assets into it.

 

This of course is starting to open a whole new can of worms that is just starting to get hinted at here and there. What if the next game from Bethesda can be modded, but its locked to the Steam Workshop like so many new games are. All mods would then have to go through Steam to get installed on your system. This of course would not last long as hackers would break that code lock and open the doors to third party modding. But then the mods that would be posted on the Nexus would be in violation of the new rules set down by Bethesda. How long would it take for them to send out those cease and desist letters to remove those mods, and then giving Nexus a reputation as supporting pirates. Then mod authors would be getting letters telling them if they wish to make mods for the game they must upload those mods to the Workshop as it is the only excepted way to mod “their game”. I will not be surprised at all if this is the route that is taken. They are looking at it as its best for the consumers and them, but in the end it will be the start of the real downfall of modding. When we are all forced to upload our mods to Steam in order to share them in the next new game that when modding starts to die. Because at that point they are no longer mods but third party DLC.

 

As for all the people in the press saying this is a good thing, they are not modders and they have no idea what is really at stake in all of this. I have listen to both Gopher and TotalBiscut and both have pros and cons. To them it’s simply a mod maker making some well earned income for all their work, but what it really is, is a grab to get ahold of as many mods as possible and pull them under the pay-wall and out of the free market. This is not going to make mods better, it’s going to make them worse because Valve has given a green light to all the unethical modders out there that its OK to steal assets from all the free mods and put them into pay for mods and they will protect them from the s#*! storm that will follow. That is really what this is about. It’s about the gutting out of the free modding scene and turning into a free for all for the unethical modders to take advantage of all the real modders out there.

So where do I stand at this point. I am not sure. Its very early days and we need to take a wait and see approach to things. I will continue the work I doing and I will continue to make the mods that I have started. It will all boil down to what is revealed in June from Bethesda and what they announce and how they will view modding on what ever new game is revealed. But the minute they say that all mod content must come from Steam, that's it. I only hope that they take a long hard look at what this is doing to their games and their modding communities and see the trouble that this is going to make.

Enough said.

 

[Aegrus]

In response to post #24617964. #24619084 is also a reply to the same post.

Laxe wrote:

philips107e wrote: I second that Laxe.
What assurances do we as players have that if we enjoy a mod, find that after careful testing with our other mods that this new mod causes no conflict.
We decide to donate to the creator.
Then next week It's on Steam cash-grab page

Who cares? You still have the mod for free, you have no right to expect another human being to swear you loyalty.

[Deathtoheaven731]

In response to post #24615349. #24615514, #24615539, #24615594, #24615744, #24615844, #24616559, #24616664, #24616684, #24616839, #24616949, #24617094, #24617659, #24617939, #24617944, #24618744, #24623334, #24624164, #24624429, #24625279 are all replies on the same post.

Axeface wrote:

Ventry wrote: Your in the minority.
You do realize this right?

CaptainGame wrote: Not the idea of people asking for money for pay that bugs me - I can easily ignore the "dollar for new sword" nonsense, and there will always be people willing to mod for love of the game... but from what I hear, A. The money split is 30% to Valve, 45% to Bethesda, and 25% to the modder, B. Modder doesn't get a thing until they make $100 (AFTER the pay split) and C. Pay is exclusively in Steam wallet credit.

This is blatantly and obviously an attempt to lure people into making DLC on the cheap.

thestoryteller01 wrote: Most people on Steam are calling Valve greedy for giving the modders only 25%, only a few spoiled brats are actually blaming the modders for anything.

But of course many say that if every contacted modder had flatly refused to participate in the trial run, we wouldn't have this mess.

dechurch wrote: "We will see more quality, better support, and better updates from modders."

You keep telling yourself that.

"very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

Certainly not any modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

While I agree with what you are saying, is it not the above that is part of the problem. As a lot of people will be doing a lot of work but not sharing in most of the financial benefits, the benefits that keep a roof over our heads. The point being that it is not only modding that things like this are happening.

Full respect to you, I am just trying to bring up a point because I think this discussion really matters if we (as the consumer/content provider) are going to help Valve avoid exploiting its customers.

Axeface wrote: @Ventry. That doesn't mean I am wrong. Some would argue that it actually means I am right, because I am able to think clearly, and for myself - not just follow the screaming and shouting crowd.

Jupezus wrote: I'm just annoyed by this, Valve is advertising this as " Support the modders",
while they take 75% of the cut. That's just plain disgusting.

Ramon1 wrote: Here, aim all those passive aggressive insults towards Chesko that just now realized what's it like to deal with megacorporations like Valve or Bethesda:

I thought discussion was moderated in this place??? Doesn't matter, too few people are remotely attempting at defending this and failing hard at it.

chinkaninka wrote: It's probably Valve's way of trying to get more people to use the steam workshop... But who would actually be stupid enough to spend money on a MOD. Who's actually looked at the paid mods page? Totally not worth it. I've made a couple of crappy mods myself, and they are NOT worth paying for... The "mods" I made are the kind of thing painted all over the steam workshop. I would just download something else, preferably something worth downloading, for FREE. Oh, and to the people who agree with this, are you trolling or did you just make your claim without sufficient evidence to back it up?

Axeface wrote: @Jepezus. Totally agree, I said that at the end of my post. 75% to the corps is wrong, but this applies to basically ANYTHING creative in the world.... the creator getting screwed by the publisher. While I understand that beth made the game, and steam is selling it. The modders are being treated like the 'middle man', as if their content has little value and they are simply adding value to the main product, when they are actually content creators. They need to have a bigger cut. 50% would be acceptable. But, corporations are evil and will try to bleed everyone dry (fact).

Aquilathestne wrote: Instead of forcing eveyrone from some guy with kids to feed and a 13 yearold without a job, perhaps this should simply be a wake up call to show more respect to our mod authors and donate? the donation system would be more effective if we all considered: would i rather be forced to pay a small amount, or give a big donation to mod authors i love? phendrix says he only has had 1 donation. lets flood our favorite authors with donations on nexus. Heck, even the ones who went to steam but still have mods here. show the appreciation for free content.

t1amat wrote: http://www.pcgamer.com/fake-protest-mods-hit-the-steam-workshop/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

Maruun wrote: I am more worried about the general direction.

Every modder that puts his "mod" as a buyable product isnt a modder anymore.
He is a User Generated Content creator, with a pretty bad pay.

Modding was always a community effort, creating, sharing, learning. Now money is involved. This changes everything.

Didnt we had quality mods before? Sure and we had alot of "bad" mods unfinished ect.
But that will NOT change with this paid mod thing....if at all it will get worse.

I cant argue agains modder trying to take some kind of compensation for their hard work, but a paywall?

The next thing leaving the modders aside, i hope it will only be "doom and gloom" but we know how the DLC dilemma started, is there a market they get away with it, and we know what consequences we got from that.

Now they start offering modders to be paid slaves for Beth right now its optionall, but that was of course only logical it would be to hard to DRM mods backwards. Fallout 4 is about to be announced, and its not a coincidence that this shitstorm was started before Fallout 4 was announced.

Do you really think when Beth starts monetising the work of OTHERS they will tolerate any competition? I fear we will see that Beth says again how they will "Support" modding behind a paywall were most of the profit goes to Beth after they released a buggy/shitty console port for a game that will AGAIN depend on modders to get fixed, the best part they dont even pay a single $ for the fixxed noooo even better THEY get paid and DONT even have to work for it, because "modder" no excuse UGC-Programers will push out small "mods" in order to fix a broken game in hope to get some payment...

I stop here...i just get angry when i think about it...

MrRedshark wrote: You're right. Very few people are going to get rich.

But a whole lot more people are going to get poorer.

Vault Tec wrote: Instead of insulting people, you should have spent the time reading into what is going on because from what I've just read, you're not all that clued up.

Many are angry because a lot of modders have just up stick and left the Nexus etc behind, most have also recently promised an updated version to be uploaded here and it appears on the Workshop instead, with the previously supported version being dropped without a word (Wet & Cold). There's also an issue with asset developers not being paid. A great example is the fishing mod which used Fore's idle animations. Fore was not contacted as the author was under an NDA up till yesterday and as such, was not getting paid or had even been asked if it was ok to ask for payment using his assets (there is a PCGamer article on it with screencaps of Fore saying that he was not asked). That mod has since been removed, and refunds being given out to anyone who bought it as Fore mods as a hobby, not for payment.

The "75% rumour" isn't actually a rumour _at all_.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=72850

"The percentage of revenue an item creator receives from direct sales of their item in this Workshop is 25%, as stipulated in the Supplemental Workshop Terms.."

On top of this, modders will have to meet milestones before being paid.

You mention "More quality mods", actually this has had the *opposite* effect. Now that there's an incentive for making free money, scumbags are stealing mods from the Nexus and uploading them as their own (as mentioned in the above article). It's now a matter of "Is this a mod or a cash grab?". The same story keeps happening with Greenlight, with a large chunk of recently submitted 'games' being blatant rip offs (the recent Hotline Miami clone which somehow got into the store) or are extremely obvious cash grabs with the authors having no intention to support it any further once it's in the store.

Many have used that tired and over-trodden reason "You don't have to buy it" blah blah but as a matter of fact, I may not have to buy it but I sure as hell have to navigate such cash grabs to find any potential mods I would want to buy (this is an example. I refuse to line Bethesda and VALVe's pockets off the back of someone else) which will affect legit mod authors as I will not navigate hundreds of pages of mods if page after page is 75% filled with cash grabs with no guarantee of prolonged support. While we're on the subject, since the workshop is now "unregulated", after the 24 hours guaranteed refund period is up, and I quote here, in order to get a refund I must "Politely ask the mod developer". Right so Mr. Russian who has created a cash grab (which was not obvious at first) and has broken it/been broken by another mod is guaranteed to give me my money back? Pull the other one!

Among other issues, a customer can 'buy' a mod, copy the files out of the Data folder onto another drive or another folder and request a refund. The author is now out of pocket, VALVe/Bethesda are keeping the cash and you've got a free mod with your money back. This was proved when a member of the PCMasterRace subreddit tested this and reported back that it worked. Immoral? Yes, but VALVe/Bethesda taking 75% of the takings is leagues ahead regarding being immoral versus a person copying files for 'mod piracy'.

Yes, mod developers should be given the option to be paid but most definitely not like this. The Nexus method, I feel, will be much more successful. There have been many mods I've downloaded which I've felt were very high quality and have actually donated accordingly (over £5) but a lot of pages don't have a donate option (which this update will fix) so even if I wanted to donate, it's pretty damn hard in some cases. In VALVe's case, I must buy the mod before I can even try it and think of it as being worth while which I disapprove of since a donation/payment should be earned, not given 'just because'.

Joeblivion wrote: @Axeface I have not been on the steam forums to witness, for myself, the extent of the response of the community to the actions of Valve/Beth and while I do not endorse over the top, negative responses, (ie. death threats, etc.) I can say that we cannot discredit the community's response because of the negative feedback.

We are voicing our displeasure at this move by Valve and Beth. The majority of the community supports the FREE distribution of modded content and those modders who decide that they would like to take the 'Valve' approach and try to monetize that content are telling the community of users that they value the dollar over the enjoyment of expressing creativity, dedication and skillful prowess in regards to their modded content.

Your position confuses me because in your first post, you support Valve's decision, claiming it will promote higher quality mods (which is debatable).

Yet later in your responses you go on to claim that corporations are 'evil' and ALWAYS try to suck everyone dry.

Despite this, you still support an 'evil' corporation, that is setting up an easy cash grab, that undermines the creativity of modders, short changes them for their efforts, moves us one step closer to eliminating free modding altogether, perpetuates pirating (now for mods, of all things) and is trying to remove our free exchange of content.

Monetizing modded content will not create better content. People will find ways to maximize the amount of money they make, while putting in the least amount of effort.
Don't believe me? Just follow what Beth and Valve are doing.

Beth makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to pay for a game that they developed 4 years ago and no longer support.

Valve makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to upkeep the workshop and overseeing every transaction/download.

The people actually doing any work get paid only 25% of profits made per download.

This is what happens when you put the importance of the dollar bill above the importance of creativity, community sharing, desire for prestige and passion for supporting something you love.

WightMage wrote: I'm sorry, but the movie, art, publishing, music, and even porn industry disagree with you. A monetary incentive has not, and will NOT guarantee an improvement in quality of products, because frankly, it isn't profitable. Industries are more likely to find something that is relatively stable, appeals to a wide demographic of customers, and isn't too avant garde or too boring, and milk it until they move onto the next big thing.

As an example, take the Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed franchises- these games have not innovated anything in the past few years of their development, and while CoD has become a joke meme to refer to flashy but ultumately substance less entertainment (not unlike Michael Bay's films), the last Assassin's Creed, Unity, was absolutely REAMED by both the press and customers alike for being a clunky, horribly glitched, unfinished piece of crap that was rushed out with next to know beta testing and relied on hype and diehard fans for its sales- which is exactly how it recouped costs. And Ubisoft has absolutely no incentive to make the next game any better, because they don't want to waste money on the chance their mext IP may fail.

Why do so many great and innovative mods get created? Because their authors have no financial incentive- the only incentive they have is their own personal interest to see something realized, made by themselves, for themselves. And by sharing it with other people, fellow modders either ignore it if they think its a bust, or contribute to it, FOR FREE, if they think it has potential, or think it just needs a little push in the right direction. Their incentive? Personal reasons- arguably even selfish ones, but constructive ones nonetheless.

You want to know what will REALLY happen with the paid skyrim mods page? Fancy hats. Porn skin texture mods. New weapon models which don't actually so anything except look cool. Copy and pasted mods from foreign countries that have been conveniently altered just enough that they pass as "not copywrite infringing," or otherwise stolen from unknown or smalltime modders who cannot mount a defense of their work.

Spending egregious amounts of time making massive projects would not only be unlikely, but unprofitable. In the amount of time a single mod author would spend to create such a mod and price it accordingly, they can, and would, be doing something else that makes them far more money in a shorter span of time for less risk. Like the above mentioned shovelware. That is not even considering that even if they formed into groups, dividing the profits up evenly would be a nightmare that would likely destroy inexperienced teams (and lets be honest here, most modders are amateur game developers at best, not people with at least five years experience in the field and experience working on deadlines with other strangers), which is to say, most of them. Look at kickstarter projects for games that have failed, and look at kickstarter projects for games that have succeeded the kickstarter, but failed afterward (Dysfunctional Systems). For most people in it for the money, it is simply not worth the time, or in their best interest, to make anything with a quality level beyond mediocre.

In conclusion, I am actually not against modders receiving compensation of some kind. But what people seem to forget is that they are not Sid Meier, Molyneux, or Gaben- you are not a professional, and if you were, you wouldn't be wringing your hands trying to make a living off of modding games, you would be freelancing, getting contracts, working on some indie title or already in the field. You aren't J.K.Rowling or Stephanie Meyer or Stieg Larsson- you are some kid who wrote a book in looseleaf with a number 2 pencil and think you are entitled to being paid via a vanity publishing company (look up why that's a bad thing). You aren't Christopher Nolan- you are a kid with an expensive camera that made a decent 15 minute demo reel and show some compentence with After Effects, trying to get a Hollywood commission.

You are a person who spends their free time making modifications for a game you already paid for, using tools you are under license to use, not own, using content that is NOT yours, and using other people's content that they have graciously let you have for free. So while you should certainly have some compensation of some kind, remember that ultimately you aren't anywhere near as entitled to things as you believe you are.

Signed, a struggling business owner in a different entertainment field with a similar problem.

digitaltrucker wrote: Funny how few mod authors thought they were 'entitled to compensation' before this paid model came along...seem to be more of them now.

WightMage wrote: No s#*!? That's greed for you, true greed, and not the kind of greed that actually improves things.

Excuse me sir, and I mean this as respectfully as I can, but you could not be more utterly wrong.

Yes, this is not the end of the world or the end of free modding. But on any other point you made you are so completely wrong that you are likely from a parallel universe where Comcast cares for its customers, EA makes games that intelligent, well-adjusted individuals enjoy, and Islamic State is a humanist, welfare organization that promotes women's rights and protects Christians from persecution.

These are VIDEO GAMES. ENTERTAINMENT. An escape from the daily stress of the world. Mods are open source creative artistic endeavors meant to expand the replayability of that entertainment media.

To endlessly monetize every aspect of video games, to take art and put it behind paywalls, is the antithesis of what video gaming is about.

We have watched video game budgets balloon to support superficial graphical improvements with nearly no improvements to actual gameplay innovation, release content carved from games in development to become paid DLC that subtracts from the value of the game but increases the price, AAA and Indie products released not only in unplayable forms upon official release dates but be complete deceptions of their gameplay demonstration videos, microtransactions that sell away challenge into oblivion....

And now we are to be nickel and dime'd for free, open source creative art that we have enjoyed for years so that content creators can sell stolen collaborative work from our community for a messily 25% cut of the earnings so maybe, just maybe they can pay rent while Bethesda and Valve trample on the communities that built them up to oppose the greedy profiteers like EA, Ubisoft, and Activision?

If the Dark0ne considers this to be abuse in anyway, then he is entitled to permaban me. I will not resent it (much). But while I abhor genuine abuse myself, I also abhor the notion that people would support the absolute, unconditional monetization, copyright, and commodification of joy and imagination. And while I will do my best, in my current state of passionate outrage (my 498 hours of Skyrim is not the most but I am a mod enthusiast at heart and a former beta tester of The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod that brought a game back from unplayability to near-completion), to remain civil, I do not begrudge those who resort to crude, language to lament and protest this most unholy disrespect to the divine spirit of PC video gaming.

I wish you well. Good day. Etc.

[Nightasy]

To the nay sayers out there, well, keep in mind that it is their mods and if they want to sell them that is their choice. There is nothing wrong with selling your art work. As a professional 3D modeler I can't rightly state that I am against people selling their 3D models even with Skyrim or any other game for that matter. Developing mods takes a lot of time and effort. Some of the individuals that develop mods, such as myself, spent thousands of dollars on college educations to learn how to do what they can do. They spent all that money with the hopes of earning more money. This of course doesn't pan out all the time and any which way one of these people can earn two cents to cut the difference, well, more power to them.

 

That being said. I have always offered all of my tutorials for free. I share education and my knowledge because I love 3D modeling. I absolutely love it so much that I want everyone to know how to do it. The aspect to me is sort of like fishing with your kid. You love to fish and you want your kid to experience what you enjoy doing. 3D modeling to me is like fishing and people sell fish for a living. I can't rightly say that I am against people selling fish that they catch for a living. Time is money friends and there is nothing anyone can say against that.

 

I might as well say that I plan to throw a couple mods up there for profit. I'm not a rich man and I figure why not sell a few fish. Making money is essential to living. Even the Nexus site, that we all so very much appreciate, does this in part for money. They make money off of subscribers as well as advertisements. Even I make money off of tutorial through advertisements. So much so that they can afford to hire someone and pay them 20k dollars a year. Money makes the world go round. I feel that I can say that in the heart what I as well as the Nexus do is all in good intent, but profit is also a playing factor.

 

Let us not be the pot calling the kettle black.

 

My biggest concern however is information. I request to any that read my words to keep education free and open. Even if by doing so you place the knowledge on YouTube with advertisements or on the Nexus where they can gain profit through advertisement. Keep in mind that someone is going to make money in some way regardless. Again, I support modders selling their mods but I do not support anyone withholding tools to develop mods or information regarding the development of mods. My biggest fear is that such aspects may be withheld for profit. Please do not do so. Keep knowledge free even if that means we have to watch a 15 second commercial to learn it.

[shingouki2002]

Hey Dark0ne, any chance the donation can be put up on that popup reminder to endorse? I think that might be a good place to put it. Also, I don't think it would be bad for people to have to wait to donate like how they wait for endorsements.

[Shadow of Serenity]

Is it true that the Nexus is getting 5% of the money from these mod sales? Cuz if it is you might want to mention it (assuming you haven't already). It gives off serious oily politician vibes otherwise.

[Deathtoheaven731]

So many times I read people saying "time is precious, people need to be compensated so that modding can go somewhere."

 

Last I checked, all the progress we had until now with modding came from people volunteering their time and passion with ZERO compensation, of their own free will, to the enjoyment of an open source community.

 

Somehow the history of that seems to be lost on people who insist money is the only true motivator. I was a betatester for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification, under the username Lord of Hunger. At one point I did an interview about my experience with that. I got jack squat in terms of financial reward, but it was one of the most worthwhile things I have done with my life. Why? Because I had fun participating in a creative endeavor that took a rushed game and turned it into the art piece it should have been to begin with, thereby creating hours of joy and entertainment for many others in the process.

 

Modding is ALTRUISTIC. If you want to make a career of video games, then go join a team and make a game. Yes, not everyone succeeds, but tough. You will ultimately do better at that than trying to squeeze a few bucks from a damn 25% cut of a few $1 models or something that uses SKSE, FNIS, etc., WHICH IS ILLEGAL ANYWAY BECAUSE MODS ARE OPEN SOURCE INTERCONNECTED RESOURCES.

 

I don't think this move will kill modding, modding is too beautiful of a thing to be killed unless gaming itself dies by absolute DRMification of the entire experience. But Paid Modding is unquestionably evil. That is not an insult upon the modders who joined this endeavor, they have clearly be deceived and mislead into this, if through comedic naivete. No, the ones worthy of insults are the marketing departments of Valve and Bethesda. It's always marketing.

[Deleted3897072User]

There is a legitimate concern that mods on Nexus will be stolen and uploaded to Steam without the author's knowledge or consent. But this has always been true, it's just that there wasn't much point in doing it. The perpetrator could gain, at best, some kudos and that would be quickly replaced with ignominy when the theft was discovered. Reputations can easily be won or lost.

 

Introducing money into the equation changes things. Firstly, it ramps up the incentive to steal and secondly it makes it harder to recover the proceeds of crime - the money. The onus is on the original author to police the situation and, in the case of "dead mods" where the author is no longer active, it isn't going to happen.

 

As far as I can see, there's nothing much to stop someone trawling Nexus for abandoned mods (where the author hasn't posted for a year, say), bundling them together into a "compilation for your convenience and pleasure", uploading it to SW for sale and running away laughing all the way to the bank. Nexus users who know the mods aren't going to pay for them - why would they - but SW users who don't frequent Nexus aren't going to recognize them and may be fooled into paying money. Yes, it's shady, underhanded, and probably criminal but it could happen.

 

I think there needs to be a policy for what happens in that situation but it needs to be one that is workable and fair without requiring an army of lawyers.

 

 

 

[Deathtoheaven731]

In response to post #24615349. #24615514, #24615539, #24615594, #24615744, #24615844, #24616559, #24616664, #24616684, #24616839, #24616949, #24617094, #24617659, #24617939, #24617944, #24618744, #24623334, #24624164, #24624429, #24625279, #24626674 are all replies on the same post.

Axeface wrote:

Ventry wrote: Your in the minority.
You do realize this right?

CaptainGame wrote: Not the idea of people asking for money for pay that bugs me - I can easily ignore the "dollar for new sword" nonsense, and there will always be people willing to mod for love of the game... but from what I hear, A. The money split is 30% to Valve, 45% to Bethesda, and 25% to the modder, B. Modder doesn't get a thing until they make $100 (AFTER the pay split) and C. Pay is exclusively in Steam wallet credit.

This is blatantly and obviously an attempt to lure people into making DLC on the cheap.

thestoryteller01 wrote: Most people on Steam are calling Valve greedy for giving the modders only 25%, only a few spoiled brats are actually blaming the modders for anything.

But of course many say that if every contacted modder had flatly refused to participate in the trial run, we wouldn't have this mess.

dechurch wrote: "We will see more quality, better support, and better updates from modders."

You keep telling yourself that.

"very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

Certainly not any modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

While I agree with what you are saying, is it not the above that is part of the problem. As a lot of people will be doing a lot of work but not sharing in most of the financial benefits, the benefits that keep a roof over our heads. The point being that it is not only modding that things like this are happening.

Full respect to you, I am just trying to bring up a point because I think this discussion really matters if we (as the consumer/content provider) are going to help Valve avoid exploiting its customers.

Axeface wrote: @Ventry. That doesn't mean I am wrong. Some would argue that it actually means I am right, because I am able to think clearly, and for myself - not just follow the screaming and shouting crowd.

Jupezus wrote: I'm just annoyed by this, Valve is advertising this as " Support the modders",
while they take 75% of the cut. That's just plain disgusting.

Ramon1 wrote: Here, aim all those passive aggressive insults towards Chesko that just now realized what's it like to deal with megacorporations like Valve or Bethesda:

I thought discussion was moderated in this place??? Doesn't matter, too few people are remotely attempting at defending this and failing hard at it.

chinkaninka wrote: It's probably Valve's way of trying to get more people to use the steam workshop... But who would actually be stupid enough to spend money on a MOD. Who's actually looked at the paid mods page? Totally not worth it. I've made a couple of crappy mods myself, and they are NOT worth paying for... The "mods" I made are the kind of thing painted all over the steam workshop. I would just download something else, preferably something worth downloading, for FREE. Oh, and to the people who agree with this, are you trolling or did you just make your claim without sufficient evidence to back it up?

Axeface wrote: @Jepezus. Totally agree, I said that at the end of my post. 75% to the corps is wrong, but this applies to basically ANYTHING creative in the world.... the creator getting screwed by the publisher. While I understand that beth made the game, and steam is selling it. The modders are being treated like the 'middle man', as if their content has little value and they are simply adding value to the main product, when they are actually content creators. They need to have a bigger cut. 50% would be acceptable. But, corporations are evil and will try to bleed everyone dry (fact).

Aquilathestne wrote: Instead of forcing eveyrone from some guy with kids to feed and a 13 yearold without a job, perhaps this should simply be a wake up call to show more respect to our mod authors and donate? the donation system would be more effective if we all considered: would i rather be forced to pay a small amount, or give a big donation to mod authors i love? phendrix says he only has had 1 donation. lets flood our favorite authors with donations on nexus. Heck, even the ones who went to steam but still have mods here. show the appreciation for free content.

t1amat wrote: http://www.pcgamer.com/fake-protest-mods-hit-the-steam-workshop/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

Maruun wrote: I am more worried about the general direction.

Every modder that puts his "mod" as a buyable product isnt a modder anymore.
He is a User Generated Content creator, with a pretty bad pay.

Modding was always a community effort, creating, sharing, learning. Now money is involved. This changes everything.

Didnt we had quality mods before? Sure and we had alot of "bad" mods unfinished ect.
But that will NOT change with this paid mod thing....if at all it will get worse.

I cant argue agains modder trying to take some kind of compensation for their hard work, but a paywall?

The next thing leaving the modders aside, i hope it will only be "doom and gloom" but we know how the DLC dilemma started, is there a market they get away with it, and we know what consequences we got from that.

Now they start offering modders to be paid slaves for Beth right now its optionall, but that was of course only logical it would be to hard to DRM mods backwards. Fallout 4 is about to be announced, and its not a coincidence that this shitstorm was started before Fallout 4 was announced.

Do you really think when Beth starts monetising the work of OTHERS they will tolerate any competition? I fear we will see that Beth says again how they will "Support" modding behind a paywall were most of the profit goes to Beth after they released a buggy/shitty console port for a game that will AGAIN depend on modders to get fixed, the best part they dont even pay a single $ for the fixxed noooo even better THEY get paid and DONT even have to work for it, because "modder" no excuse UGC-Programers will push out small "mods" in order to fix a broken game in hope to get some payment...

I stop here...i just get angry when i think about it...

MrRedshark wrote: You're right. Very few people are going to get rich.

But a whole lot more people are going to get poorer.

Vault Tec wrote: Instead of insulting people, you should have spent the time reading into what is going on because from what I've just read, you're not all that clued up.

Many are angry because a lot of modders have just up stick and left the Nexus etc behind, most have also recently promised an updated version to be uploaded here and it appears on the Workshop instead, with the previously supported version being dropped without a word (Wet & Cold). There's also an issue with asset developers not being paid. A great example is the fishing mod which used Fore's idle animations. Fore was not contacted as the author was under an NDA up till yesterday and as such, was not getting paid or had even been asked if it was ok to ask for payment using his assets (there is a PCGamer article on it with screencaps of Fore saying that he was not asked). That mod has since been removed, and refunds being given out to anyone who bought it as Fore mods as a hobby, not for payment.

The "75% rumour" isn't actually a rumour _at all_.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=72850

"The percentage of revenue an item creator receives from direct sales of their item in this Workshop is 25%, as stipulated in the Supplemental Workshop Terms.."

On top of this, modders will have to meet milestones before being paid.

You mention "More quality mods", actually this has had the *opposite* effect. Now that there's an incentive for making free money, scumbags are stealing mods from the Nexus and uploading them as their own (as mentioned in the above article). It's now a matter of "Is this a mod or a cash grab?". The same story keeps happening with Greenlight, with a large chunk of recently submitted 'games' being blatant rip offs (the recent Hotline Miami clone which somehow got into the store) or are extremely obvious cash grabs with the authors having no intention to support it any further once it's in the store.

Many have used that tired and over-trodden reason "You don't have to buy it" blah blah but as a matter of fact, I may not have to buy it but I sure as hell have to navigate such cash grabs to find any potential mods I would want to buy (this is an example. I refuse to line Bethesda and VALVe's pockets off the back of someone else) which will affect legit mod authors as I will not navigate hundreds of pages of mods if page after page is 75% filled with cash grabs with no guarantee of prolonged support. While we're on the subject, since the workshop is now "unregulated", after the 24 hours guaranteed refund period is up, and I quote here, in order to get a refund I must "Politely ask the mod developer". Right so Mr. Russian who has created a cash grab (which was not obvious at first) and has broken it/been broken by another mod is guaranteed to give me my money back? Pull the other one!

Among other issues, a customer can 'buy' a mod, copy the files out of the Data folder onto another drive or another folder and request a refund. The author is now out of pocket, VALVe/Bethesda are keeping the cash and you've got a free mod with your money back. This was proved when a member of the PCMasterRace subreddit tested this and reported back that it worked. Immoral? Yes, but VALVe/Bethesda taking 75% of the takings is leagues ahead regarding being immoral versus a person copying files for 'mod piracy'.

Yes, mod developers should be given the option to be paid but most definitely not like this. The Nexus method, I feel, will be much more successful. There have been many mods I've downloaded which I've felt were very high quality and have actually donated accordingly (over £5) but a lot of pages don't have a donate option (which this update will fix) so even if I wanted to donate, it's pretty damn hard in some cases. In VALVe's case, I must buy the mod before I can even try it and think of it as being worth while which I disapprove of since a donation/payment should be earned, not given 'just because'.

Joeblivion wrote: @Axeface I have not been on the steam forums to witness, for myself, the extent of the response of the community to the actions of Valve/Beth and while I do not endorse over the top, negative responses, (ie. death threats, etc.) I can say that we cannot discredit the community's response because of the negative feedback.

We are voicing our displeasure at this move by Valve and Beth. The majority of the community supports the FREE distribution of modded content and those modders who decide that they would like to take the 'Valve' approach and try to monetize that content are telling the community of users that they value the dollar over the enjoyment of expressing creativity, dedication and skillful prowess in regards to their modded content.

Your position confuses me because in your first post, you support Valve's decision, claiming it will promote higher quality mods (which is debatable).

Yet later in your responses you go on to claim that corporations are 'evil' and ALWAYS try to suck everyone dry.

Despite this, you still support an 'evil' corporation, that is setting up an easy cash grab, that undermines the creativity of modders, short changes them for their efforts, moves us one step closer to eliminating free modding altogether, perpetuates pirating (now for mods, of all things) and is trying to remove our free exchange of content.

Monetizing modded content will not create better content. People will find ways to maximize the amount of money they make, while putting in the least amount of effort.
Don't believe me? Just follow what Beth and Valve are doing.

Beth makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to pay for a game that they developed 4 years ago and no longer support.

Valve makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to upkeep the workshop and overseeing every transaction/download.

The people actually doing any work get paid only 25% of profits made per download.

This is what happens when you put the importance of the dollar bill above the importance of creativity, community sharing, desire for prestige and passion for supporting something you love.

WightMage wrote: I'm sorry, but the movie, art, publishing, music, and even porn industry disagree with you. A monetary incentive has not, and will NOT guarantee an improvement in quality of products, because frankly, it isn't profitable. Industries are more likely to find something that is relatively stable, appeals to a wide demographic of customers, and isn't too avant garde or too boring, and milk it until they move onto the next big thing.

As an example, take the Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed franchises- these games have not innovated anything in the past few years of their development, and while CoD has become a joke meme to refer to flashy but ultumately substance less entertainment (not unlike Michael Bay's films), the last Assassin's Creed, Unity, was absolutely REAMED by both the press and customers alike for being a clunky, horribly glitched, unfinished piece of crap that was rushed out with next to know beta testing and relied on hype and diehard fans for its sales- which is exactly how it recouped costs. And Ubisoft has absolutely no incentive to make the next game any better, because they don't want to waste money on the chance their mext IP may fail.

Why do so many great and innovative mods get created? Because their authors have no financial incentive- the only incentive they have is their own personal interest to see something realized, made by themselves, for themselves. And by sharing it with other people, fellow modders either ignore it if they think its a bust, or contribute to it, FOR FREE, if they think it has potential, or think it just needs a little push in the right direction. Their incentive? Personal reasons- arguably even selfish ones, but constructive ones nonetheless.

You want to know what will REALLY happen with the paid skyrim mods page? Fancy hats. Porn skin texture mods. New weapon models which don't actually so anything except look cool. Copy and pasted mods from foreign countries that have been conveniently altered just enough that they pass as "not copywrite infringing," or otherwise stolen from unknown or smalltime modders who cannot mount a defense of their work.

Spending egregious amounts of time making massive projects would not only be unlikely, but unprofitable. In the amount of time a single mod author would spend to create such a mod and price it accordingly, they can, and would, be doing something else that makes them far more money in a shorter span of time for less risk. Like the above mentioned shovelware. That is not even considering that even if they formed into groups, dividing the profits up evenly would be a nightmare that would likely destroy inexperienced teams (and lets be honest here, most modders are amateur game developers at best, not people with at least five years experience in the field and experience working on deadlines with other strangers), which is to say, most of them. Look at kickstarter projects for games that have failed, and look at kickstarter projects for games that have succeeded the kickstarter, but failed afterward (Dysfunctional Systems). For most people in it for the money, it is simply not worth the time, or in their best interest, to make anything with a quality level beyond mediocre.

In conclusion, I am actually not against modders receiving compensation of some kind. But what people seem to forget is that they are not Sid Meier, Molyneux, or Gaben- you are not a professional, and if you were, you wouldn't be wringing your hands trying to make a living off of modding games, you would be freelancing, getting contracts, working on some indie title or already in the field. You aren't J.K.Rowling or Stephanie Meyer or Stieg Larsson- you are some kid who wrote a book in looseleaf with a number 2 pencil and think you are entitled to being paid via a vanity publishing company (look up why that's a bad thing). You aren't Christopher Nolan- you are a kid with an expensive camera that made a decent 15 minute demo reel and show some compentence with After Effects, trying to get a Hollywood commission.

You are a person who spends their free time making modifications for a game you already paid for, using tools you are under license to use, not own, using content that is NOT yours, and using other people's content that they have graciously let you have for free. So while you should certainly have some compensation of some kind, remember that ultimately you aren't anywhere near as entitled to things as you believe you are.

Signed, a struggling business owner in a different entertainment field with a similar problem.

digitaltrucker wrote: Funny how few mod authors thought they were 'entitled to compensation' before this paid model came along...seem to be more of them now.

WightMage wrote: No s#*!? That's greed for you, true greed, and not the kind of greed that actually improves things.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: Excuse me sir, and I mean this as respectfully as I can, but you could not be more utterly wrong.

Yes, this is not the end of the world or the end of free modding. But on any other point you made you are so completely wrong that you are likely from a parallel universe where Comcast cares for its customers, EA makes games that intelligent, well-adjusted individuals enjoy, and Islamic State is a humanist, welfare organization that promotes women's rights and protects Christians from persecution.

These are VIDEO GAMES. ENTERTAINMENT. An escape from the daily stress of the world. Mods are open source creative artistic endeavors meant to expand the replayability of that entertainment media.

To endlessly monetize every aspect of video games, to take art and put it behind paywalls, is the antithesis of what video gaming is about.

We have watched video game budgets balloon to support superficial graphical improvements with nearly no improvements to actual gameplay innovation, release content carved from games in development to become paid DLC that subtracts from the value of the game but increases the price, AAA and Indie products released not only in unplayable forms upon official release dates but be complete deceptions of their gameplay demonstration videos, microtransactions that sell away challenge into oblivion....

And now we are to be nickel and dime'd for free, open source creative art that we have enjoyed for years so that content creators can sell stolen collaborative work from our community for a messily 25% cut of the earnings so maybe, just maybe they can pay rent while Bethesda and Valve trample on the communities that built them up to oppose the greedy profiteers like EA, Ubisoft, and Activision?

If the Dark0ne considers this to be abuse in anyway, then he is entitled to permaban me. I will not resent it (much). But while I abhor genuine abuse myself, I also abhor the notion that people would support the absolute, unconditional monetization, copyright, and commodification of joy and imagination. And while I will do my best, in my current state of passionate outrage (my 498 hours of Skyrim is not the most but I am a mod enthusiast at heart and a former beta tester of The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod that brought a game back from unplayability to near-completion), to remain civil, I do not begrudge those who resort to crude, language to lament and protest this most unholy disrespect to the divine spirit of PC video gaming.

I wish you well. Good day. Etc.

I salute this post.

[pigtailsboy]

In response to post #24615349. #24615514, #24615539, #24615594, #24615744, #24615844, #24616559, #24616664, #24616684, #24616839, #24616949, #24617094, #24617659, #24617939, #24617944, #24618744, #24623334, #24624164, #24624429, #24625279, #24626674, #24627199 are all replies on the same post.

Axeface wrote:

Ventry wrote: Your in the minority.
You do realize this right?

CaptainGame wrote: Not the idea of people asking for money for pay that bugs me - I can easily ignore the "dollar for new sword" nonsense, and there will always be people willing to mod for love of the game... but from what I hear, A. The money split is 30% to Valve, 45% to Bethesda, and 25% to the modder, B. Modder doesn't get a thing until they make $100 (AFTER the pay split) and C. Pay is exclusively in Steam wallet credit.

This is blatantly and obviously an attempt to lure people into making DLC on the cheap.

thestoryteller01 wrote: Most people on Steam are calling Valve greedy for giving the modders only 25%, only a few spoiled brats are actually blaming the modders for anything.

But of course many say that if every contacted modder had flatly refused to participate in the trial run, we wouldn't have this mess.

dechurch wrote: "We will see more quality, better support, and better updates from modders."

You keep telling yourself that.

"very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

Certainly not any modders.

sunshinenbrick wrote: "very, VERY few people are going to get rich doing this. Very few. Think about this before calling people greedy."

While I agree with what you are saying, is it not the above that is part of the problem. As a lot of people will be doing a lot of work but not sharing in most of the financial benefits, the benefits that keep a roof over our heads. The point being that it is not only modding that things like this are happening.

Full respect to you, I am just trying to bring up a point because I think this discussion really matters if we (as the consumer/content provider) are going to help Valve avoid exploiting its customers.

Axeface wrote: @Ventry. That doesn't mean I am wrong. Some would argue that it actually means I am right, because I am able to think clearly, and for myself - not just follow the screaming and shouting crowd.

Jupezus wrote: I'm just annoyed by this, Valve is advertising this as " Support the modders",
while they take 75% of the cut. That's just plain disgusting.

Ramon1 wrote: Here, aim all those passive aggressive insults towards Chesko that just now realized what's it like to deal with megacorporations like Valve or Bethesda:

I thought discussion was moderated in this place??? Doesn't matter, too few people are remotely attempting at defending this and failing hard at it.

chinkaninka wrote: It's probably Valve's way of trying to get more people to use the steam workshop... But who would actually be stupid enough to spend money on a MOD. Who's actually looked at the paid mods page? Totally not worth it. I've made a couple of crappy mods myself, and they are NOT worth paying for... The "mods" I made are the kind of thing painted all over the steam workshop. I would just download something else, preferably something worth downloading, for FREE. Oh, and to the people who agree with this, are you trolling or did you just make your claim without sufficient evidence to back it up?

Axeface wrote: @Jepezus. Totally agree, I said that at the end of my post. 75% to the corps is wrong, but this applies to basically ANYTHING creative in the world.... the creator getting screwed by the publisher. While I understand that beth made the game, and steam is selling it. The modders are being treated like the 'middle man', as if their content has little value and they are simply adding value to the main product, when they are actually content creators. They need to have a bigger cut. 50% would be acceptable. But, corporations are evil and will try to bleed everyone dry (fact).

Aquilathestne wrote: Instead of forcing eveyrone from some guy with kids to feed and a 13 yearold without a job, perhaps this should simply be a wake up call to show more respect to our mod authors and donate? the donation system would be more effective if we all considered: would i rather be forced to pay a small amount, or give a big donation to mod authors i love? phendrix says he only has had 1 donation. lets flood our favorite authors with donations on nexus. Heck, even the ones who went to steam but still have mods here. show the appreciation for free content.

t1amat wrote: http://www.pcgamer.com/fake-protest-mods-hit-the-steam-workshop/?ns_campaign=article-feed&ns_mchannel=ref&ns_source=steam&ns_linkname=0&ns_fee=0

Maruun wrote: I am more worried about the general direction.

Every modder that puts his "mod" as a buyable product isnt a modder anymore.
He is a User Generated Content creator, with a pretty bad pay.

Modding was always a community effort, creating, sharing, learning. Now money is involved. This changes everything.

Didnt we had quality mods before? Sure and we had alot of "bad" mods unfinished ect.
But that will NOT change with this paid mod thing....if at all it will get worse.

I cant argue agains modder trying to take some kind of compensation for their hard work, but a paywall?

The next thing leaving the modders aside, i hope it will only be "doom and gloom" but we know how the DLC dilemma started, is there a market they get away with it, and we know what consequences we got from that.

Now they start offering modders to be paid slaves for Beth right now its optionall, but that was of course only logical it would be to hard to DRM mods backwards. Fallout 4 is about to be announced, and its not a coincidence that this shitstorm was started before Fallout 4 was announced.

Do you really think when Beth starts monetising the work of OTHERS they will tolerate any competition? I fear we will see that Beth says again how they will "Support" modding behind a paywall were most of the profit goes to Beth after they released a buggy/shitty console port for a game that will AGAIN depend on modders to get fixed, the best part they dont even pay a single $ for the fixxed noooo even better THEY get paid and DONT even have to work for it, because "modder" no excuse UGC-Programers will push out small "mods" in order to fix a broken game in hope to get some payment...

I stop here...i just get angry when i think about it...

MrRedshark wrote: You're right. Very few people are going to get rich.

But a whole lot more people are going to get poorer.

Vault Tec wrote: Instead of insulting people, you should have spent the time reading into what is going on because from what I've just read, you're not all that clued up.

Many are angry because a lot of modders have just up stick and left the Nexus etc behind, most have also recently promised an updated version to be uploaded here and it appears on the Workshop instead, with the previously supported version being dropped without a word (Wet & Cold). There's also an issue with asset developers not being paid. A great example is the fishing mod which used Fore's idle animations. Fore was not contacted as the author was under an NDA up till yesterday and as such, was not getting paid or had even been asked if it was ok to ask for payment using his assets (there is a PCGamer article on it with screencaps of Fore saying that he was not asked). That mod has since been removed, and refunds being given out to anyone who bought it as Fore mods as a hobby, not for payment.

The "75% rumour" isn't actually a rumour _at all_.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=72850

"The percentage of revenue an item creator receives from direct sales of their item in this Workshop is 25%, as stipulated in the Supplemental Workshop Terms.."

On top of this, modders will have to meet milestones before being paid.

You mention "More quality mods", actually this has had the *opposite* effect. Now that there's an incentive for making free money, scumbags are stealing mods from the Nexus and uploading them as their own (as mentioned in the above article). It's now a matter of "Is this a mod or a cash grab?". The same story keeps happening with Greenlight, with a large chunk of recently submitted 'games' being blatant rip offs (the recent Hotline Miami clone which somehow got into the store) or are extremely obvious cash grabs with the authors having no intention to support it any further once it's in the store.

Many have used that tired and over-trodden reason "You don't have to buy it" blah blah but as a matter of fact, I may not have to buy it but I sure as hell have to navigate such cash grabs to find any potential mods I would want to buy (this is an example. I refuse to line Bethesda and VALVe's pockets off the back of someone else) which will affect legit mod authors as I will not navigate hundreds of pages of mods if page after page is 75% filled with cash grabs with no guarantee of prolonged support. While we're on the subject, since the workshop is now "unregulated", after the 24 hours guaranteed refund period is up, and I quote here, in order to get a refund I must "Politely ask the mod developer". Right so Mr. Russian who has created a cash grab (which was not obvious at first) and has broken it/been broken by another mod is guaranteed to give me my money back? Pull the other one!

Among other issues, a customer can 'buy' a mod, copy the files out of the Data folder onto another drive or another folder and request a refund. The author is now out of pocket, VALVe/Bethesda are keeping the cash and you've got a free mod with your money back. This was proved when a member of the PCMasterRace subreddit tested this and reported back that it worked. Immoral? Yes, but VALVe/Bethesda taking 75% of the takings is leagues ahead regarding being immoral versus a person copying files for 'mod piracy'.

Yes, mod developers should be given the option to be paid but most definitely not like this. The Nexus method, I feel, will be much more successful. There have been many mods I've downloaded which I've felt were very high quality and have actually donated accordingly (over £5) but a lot of pages don't have a donate option (which this update will fix) so even if I wanted to donate, it's pretty damn hard in some cases. In VALVe's case, I must buy the mod before I can even try it and think of it as being worth while which I disapprove of since a donation/payment should be earned, not given 'just because'.

Joeblivion wrote: @Axeface I have not been on the steam forums to witness, for myself, the extent of the response of the community to the actions of Valve/Beth and while I do not endorse over the top, negative responses, (ie. death threats, etc.) I can say that we cannot discredit the community's response because of the negative feedback.

We are voicing our displeasure at this move by Valve and Beth. The majority of the community supports the FREE distribution of modded content and those modders who decide that they would like to take the 'Valve' approach and try to monetize that content are telling the community of users that they value the dollar over the enjoyment of expressing creativity, dedication and skillful prowess in regards to their modded content.

Your position confuses me because in your first post, you support Valve's decision, claiming it will promote higher quality mods (which is debatable).

Yet later in your responses you go on to claim that corporations are 'evil' and ALWAYS try to suck everyone dry.

Despite this, you still support an 'evil' corporation, that is setting up an easy cash grab, that undermines the creativity of modders, short changes them for their efforts, moves us one step closer to eliminating free modding altogether, perpetuates pirating (now for mods, of all things) and is trying to remove our free exchange of content.

Monetizing modded content will not create better content. People will find ways to maximize the amount of money they make, while putting in the least amount of effort.
Don't believe me? Just follow what Beth and Valve are doing.

Beth makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to pay for a game that they developed 4 years ago and no longer support.

Valve makes 37.5% of all profits for every download, while only having to upkeep the workshop and overseeing every transaction/download.

The people actually doing any work get paid only 25% of profits made per download.

This is what happens when you put the importance of the dollar bill above the importance of creativity, community sharing, desire for prestige and passion for supporting something you love.

WightMage wrote: I'm sorry, but the movie, art, publishing, music, and even porn industry disagree with you. A monetary incentive has not, and will NOT guarantee an improvement in quality of products, because frankly, it isn't profitable. Industries are more likely to find something that is relatively stable, appeals to a wide demographic of customers, and isn't too avant garde or too boring, and milk it until they move onto the next big thing.

As an example, take the Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed franchises- these games have not innovated anything in the past few years of their development, and while CoD has become a joke meme to refer to flashy but ultumately substance less entertainment (not unlike Michael Bay's films), the last Assassin's Creed, Unity, was absolutely REAMED by both the press and customers alike for being a clunky, horribly glitched, unfinished piece of crap that was rushed out with next to know beta testing and relied on hype and diehard fans for its sales- which is exactly how it recouped costs. And Ubisoft has absolutely no incentive to make the next game any better, because they don't want to waste money on the chance their mext IP may fail.

Why do so many great and innovative mods get created? Because their authors have no financial incentive- the only incentive they have is their own personal interest to see something realized, made by themselves, for themselves. And by sharing it with other people, fellow modders either ignore it if they think its a bust, or contribute to it, FOR FREE, if they think it has potential, or think it just needs a little push in the right direction. Their incentive? Personal reasons- arguably even selfish ones, but constructive ones nonetheless.

You want to know what will REALLY happen with the paid skyrim mods page? Fancy hats. Porn skin texture mods. New weapon models which don't actually so anything except look cool. Copy and pasted mods from foreign countries that have been conveniently altered just enough that they pass as "not copywrite infringing," or otherwise stolen from unknown or smalltime modders who cannot mount a defense of their work.

Spending egregious amounts of time making massive projects would not only be unlikely, but unprofitable. In the amount of time a single mod author would spend to create such a mod and price it accordingly, they can, and would, be doing something else that makes them far more money in a shorter span of time for less risk. Like the above mentioned shovelware. That is not even considering that even if they formed into groups, dividing the profits up evenly would be a nightmare that would likely destroy inexperienced teams (and lets be honest here, most modders are amateur game developers at best, not people with at least five years experience in the field and experience working on deadlines with other strangers), which is to say, most of them. Look at kickstarter projects for games that have failed, and look at kickstarter projects for games that have succeeded the kickstarter, but failed afterward (Dysfunctional Systems). For most people in it for the money, it is simply not worth the time, or in their best interest, to make anything with a quality level beyond mediocre.

In conclusion, I am actually not against modders receiving compensation of some kind. But what people seem to forget is that they are not Sid Meier, Molyneux, or Gaben- you are not a professional, and if you were, you wouldn't be wringing your hands trying to make a living off of modding games, you would be freelancing, getting contracts, working on some indie title or already in the field. You aren't J.K.Rowling or Stephanie Meyer or Stieg Larsson- you are some kid who wrote a book in looseleaf with a number 2 pencil and think you are entitled to being paid via a vanity publishing company (look up why that's a bad thing). You aren't Christopher Nolan- you are a kid with an expensive camera that made a decent 15 minute demo reel and show some compentence with After Effects, trying to get a Hollywood commission.

You are a person who spends their free time making modifications for a game you already paid for, using tools you are under license to use, not own, using content that is NOT yours, and using other people's content that they have graciously let you have for free. So while you should certainly have some compensation of some kind, remember that ultimately you aren't anywhere near as entitled to things as you believe you are.

Signed, a struggling business owner in a different entertainment field with a similar problem.

digitaltrucker wrote: Funny how few mod authors thought they were 'entitled to compensation' before this paid model came along...seem to be more of them now.

WightMage wrote: No s#*!? That's greed for you, true greed, and not the kind of greed that actually improves things.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: Excuse me sir, and I mean this as respectfully as I can, but you could not be more utterly wrong.

Yes, this is not the end of the world or the end of free modding. But on any other point you made you are so completely wrong that you are likely from a parallel universe where Comcast cares for its customers, EA makes games that intelligent, well-adjusted individuals enjoy, and Islamic State is a humanist, welfare organization that promotes women's rights and protects Christians from persecution.

These are VIDEO GAMES. ENTERTAINMENT. An escape from the daily stress of the world. Mods are open source creative artistic endeavors meant to expand the replayability of that entertainment media.

To endlessly monetize every aspect of video games, to take art and put it behind paywalls, is the antithesis of what video gaming is about.

We have watched video game budgets balloon to support superficial graphical improvements with nearly no improvements to actual gameplay innovation, release content carved from games in development to become paid DLC that subtracts from the value of the game but increases the price, AAA and Indie products released not only in unplayable forms upon official release dates but be complete deceptions of their gameplay demonstration videos, microtransactions that sell away challenge into oblivion....

And now we are to be nickel and dime'd for free, open source creative art that we have enjoyed for years so that content creators can sell stolen collaborative work from our community for a messily 25% cut of the earnings so maybe, just maybe they can pay rent while Bethesda and Valve trample on the communities that built them up to oppose the greedy profiteers like EA, Ubisoft, and Activision?

If the Dark0ne considers this to be abuse in anyway, then he is entitled to permaban me. I will not resent it (much). But while I abhor genuine abuse myself, I also abhor the notion that people would support the absolute, unconditional monetization, copyright, and commodification of joy and imagination. And while I will do my best, in my current state of passionate outrage (my 498 hours of Skyrim is not the most but I am a mod enthusiast at heart and a former beta tester of The Sith Lords Restored Content Mod that brought a game back from unplayability to near-completion), to remain civil, I do not begrudge those who resort to crude, language to lament and protest this most unholy disrespect to the divine spirit of PC video gaming.

I wish you well. Good day. Etc.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote: I salute this post.

I would say it's a problem for modding when big mods start going to paid DLC like Wet and Cold, like Midas Magic, like iNeed. True those are big mods with authors who feel deserving enough to be compensated for their effort but they're also popular and important to the culture of modding.

I can almost feel my self shying entirely away from the idea of paid functional content. And when something like Wet and Cold has integration with mods that are not purchasable content but from a community standpoint are nearly inseparable I have to side against it.

Another thing is purchasable mods are going to cut off some people from that content. Whatever you think you're wrong. And not because a lot of us have now decided without even discussing it to boycott this content but because some of us can't afford or justify to afford even the cheapest of DLC. There in lies another problem.

Lastly we're not all of the opinion that the mod authors are greedy. That slander is directly pointed at Valve and Bethesda. And it's their entitlement to a larger portion (if suggestions are true) that will drive a higher minimum price tag on the available mods because those mod authors seek to reach that price ceiling so they can break out and start actually earning from their work.