Quick updates to the site, money money money edition

[annondude]

In response to post #24636769. #24637174, #24638689 are all replies on the same post.

Obscerno wrote:

popopipo wrote: In game pop-up in "free" mods for the paying version, paying cheat mods, lawsuits coming soon for copyright issues, talented modders getting insulted, mods getting hidden by their creators, shitstorm all over...

I dont know what you consider as long run, but the short term consequences are very clear.

Obscerno wrote: I was mainly focusing on how the long term effects of competition between these companies themselves should be good for modders.

Yes, things are unbalanced right now, but I think they'll smooth out eventually over time as the bugs are ironed out. Things like ethical codes haven't really been established yet seeing as how recent the changes are.

We're already seeing progress on that front, however: The Nexus is giving modders an easy way to give or deny permission to other modders who would like to use their work commercially, which is a good first step.

Hopefully some sort of code of conduct is reached in the coming months amongst the community themselves.

but the nexus is less of a "company" and more of a "community forum for modders" The payed for mods is a f*#@ing stupid idea, too easy to abuse, scares off vet creators, invites new people to make halfassed work for a quick quarter, Scummy as f*#@ all with the way steam wallet works, and OFC the fact that people can just torrent the mods hell even share em directly with a P2P system like hamachi...I did that for dragonborn and probably could do it just as easy for any payed mod. Yes I like that modders are getting rewarded for doing awesome jobs but honestly this is just a f*#@ing cash grab and anyone who supports this s#*! is either a blind shill or a modder who is getting his steam shoe closet filled with more software because lolsteamwallet=/=real money. Donate function is a great idea, forced to pay is f*#@ing stupid

[luthienmpl]

In response to post #24639924.

marveljam wrote:

If that becomes a thing, I'd suggest making the "mod supporter" banner optional to be not visible to the general public. While donating to mods you like is a great thing, some people simply may not have the financial means to do so, and it's really nobody elses business. It would be a shame if comments like "you never donate anything anyway so what gives you the right to voice an opinion" started showing up.

[Naxxer25]

(disclaimer:sorry if my english is baD OR INCOMPREHENSIBLE)

if Valvthesda's target was destroying the trust users have in modders, then kudos to them, they nailed it. i can't bring myself to pay or donate at the moment, because now i can't trust the fact that modder "A" will keep updating his mod i paid for here and not on Steam (or vice versa). Today i donate here, tomorrow the mod here will be discontinued only because the same mod on steam rakes more dough. so i threw away my money, for teh lulz. As of how things go at the moment, this can't work.

[cascadesbiker]

Thanks for running such a great site for so many years. Its the best mod site out there and thanks for clarifying things. Keep up the good work

[Saerileth]

In response to post #24633209. #24633374, #24633709, #24633739, #24633824, #24635204, #24636244, #24638839, #24639109 are all replies on the same post.

MajorKuchiki wrote:

bigdeano89 wrote: .......why? SKYUI works fine and is still free; I dont see the problem?

Edit: i have to state that, yes i know 5.0 is going to steam, but he has assured us that MCM will not change, so you do not need to update.

MajorKuchiki wrote: sky UI version 5 update is going to be paid only on steamworkshop

Witto wrote: And you believe them that MCM will stay free? I don't. If you can stick few bucks on it, there's gonna be a price tag in few days.

popopipo wrote: And then the sky UI team will threaten them with lawyers...
(If the skyUI team doesn't, one day or another it will arrive with money involved...)

unique1 wrote: Just can't wait to see all the "buy the full version now" popups!

*sigh*

Therandomizer85 wrote: All because the modder in question is a pussy, right?

WightMage wrote: No they won't, because they don't own the rights to their work either. All rights to mods are owned by Bethesda from the moment you agree to the EULA on creation kit.

So if someone wanted to make an alternative, SkyUI's team is SOL.

xBlitzerx wrote: I know, Bethesda could actually make the UI work for PC! Oh wait...

Let's hope someone makes another UI fix. Sorry guys, not paying for a UI mod that should be vanilla.

Would people please just calm down? SkyUI 4 is not a "stripped down freemium" version, it's the very same SkyUI that we have used and enjoyed in the past. No features have been removed from it, and everyone was perfectly happy with it before. So why is it not enough now?

Because the SkyUI team made an updated version of it, with some neat new features, specifically with the intent to sell it. I cannot stress this point enough, this update would probably not have seen the light of day without that incentive. So the situation is this - those unwilling or unable to pay a few dollars for it are no better or worse off than they were the past year, as SkyUI 4 will still be available for everyone. Unless the immature reaction of some users annoys them enough to remove that, as well, and everyone will be left with nothing, in that case I applaud your efforts.

Are these mod authors doing the right thing asking money for their update? That's for them to decide, and frankly none of your business. Decide to buy or not to, but move along. Quite honestly I don't understand the vicious backlash against the SkyUI team, without them this modding community wouldn't even exist today - I for one would not even be playing Skyrim anymore. The fact that they decided to try and get something back for their hard work (and before you say "donations", I've talked to enough people to know that the amount of money donated to the average mod author over the years amounts to zip), does not mean that they have become greedy monsters who sold their souls to Valve/Bethesda/the Devil. They say that the MCM menu will remain free. So trust them - if and when they break that promise, then you can bring out the pitchforks.

[Deathtoheaven731]

In response to post #24627129. #24627504, #24627699, #24628164 are all replies on the same post.

Deathtoheaven731 wrote:

Nightasy wrote: Are you a professional 3D modeler or a professional script writer? Are you a professional working in a flooded industry? If not then you might want to take a step back and consider your stance. How many mods have you released for free? How many people have you helped in the development of mods. What has been your contribution to the modding of games?

I can assure you that your answers to those questions don't even come close to mine own. Why do I bring this up you might ask. I bring this up because you don't know the position that many modders are in. I'd wager that in the back of your head you are only considering that you might have to pay for something you want. I come to this conclusion since by clicking your name you do not seem to have offered any mods to the community but have much to say about those that have.

If someone wants to get paid for modding then more power to them. Have you considered how many modders this might bring back to Skyrim modding? Think about it for a bit and consider that many people have left Skyrim modding to pursue more profitable endeavors or simply because they got tired of it. Think what mods might come to exist because of profiteering. Hell, Skyrim wouldn't exist if not for the bottom dollar. And yes, I plan to release some paid for content along with some free content.

I've always considered Skyrim modding charity but now that their is an option to make a few bucks well why not? I was essentially done with modding Skyrim but now that I've come to learn I can make a few bucks doing it I've come back to throw a few more up there. I would not have been doing so had the option to make money not become available. Don't bash people for trying to make a few bucks, times are tough all over.

I'd also like to go on record stating that Valve taking a 75% cut is bull. Even turbosquid doesn't take no where near that amount of a cut. The modder does all the work including the conceptual design of the project. They should be the ones walking away with 75%, not the other way around. That is the only gripe I have with the matter but hey, what can you do?

drwebs wrote: @Nightasy your response is why people pirate mods and will keep on doing it.

"I cam back to ruin the community that did not pay me from the start" is basically what you just said.

I look forward to see all of your paid work given out for free!

Nightasy wrote: You completely misread my post. I'm sorry that you read it that way and that is not anything like what I've stated nor does it even come close. You apparently don't know who you are talking to and I won't take offense to it because you are new here. You should probably research me before you make assumptions about me. I've done more for the modding community then you most likely are aware of. I'm one of the good guys.

Though I should inform you that your account and IP are most likely going to get banned as you've just encouraged piracy which is against Nexus policy.

I'm guessing someone flamed you? 'Cause I did not see these two posts of yours until just now....

[JBear61]

Ok, boys and girls, I'm kinda old, so maybe it's senility at work, but lets see if I have an understanding.

First off, the game is owned by Bethesda. Second, the CK is owned by Bethesda. Third, everything created for the game by freelance authors is actually owned by Bethesda... What is surprising, is that Bethesda and Steam are allowing ANY KIND of profit from their game and tools. (Even if it is just Steam bucks, at least it will pay for a new game someday) I have modded for other games, and I mod Skyrim, too. I haven't released anything for Skyrim as I suck, and/or am too slow at it to complete a mod before 5 of the same thing has already been released. I can remember the whole profit taboo as I was modding for Resident Evil 4 and on the site I mentioned that I would pay for a mod that brought true mouse look to RE4. Someone jokingly asked how much I was willing to pay, and playing along I believe I said something like around half the price of the game, as I am left handed with injuries at the time. Within hours, the moderator threatened me and put me on probation over fear the site would be shut down.

Now, as for the piracy thing... Some people will never pay for games, so forget them ever paying for mods. This could become a whole new black market. One buys, saves the mod, gets their money back, then shares the mod with who knows how many others. It's sad, but a very real possibility. And of course, modder content will be stolen to be sold under another name, crooks are crooks, and the only thing is to take it as a complement that your work was good enough to be stolen as you have no real legal standing.

This leaves the legitimate modders limited choices. One choice is that continue to create content because they love it and offer it for free with the possibility that it will be plagiarized with the only recourse being to get the stolen work removed. (If that even flies) There is a consideration that if you are REALLY good at it you may be hired by a game producer. Another choice is to defect to the paid mod route, and deal with the complaints, refunds and pirates. And finally, the apocalyptic choice, to pull their content and keep it to themselves for fear of it being stolen by profiteers. This may be the actual swan song of the modding community.

I sincerely hope I am misunderstanding the situation in it's entirety. Please...Tell me I'm wrong.

[DameLoony]

It's useful to compare Skyrim with the pillar of the paid 'mod' scene, which is Flight Simulators. Above and beyond the base game, flight sim addons are an industry unto themselves where most paid addons run in Microsoft Flight Simulator 2010 (MSX) as well as its derivitives/competitors. This isn't a perfect metaphor because the sim industry is financially anchored by people who want realism over 'game-design' philosophies. The flight sim market is almost wholly independent of the studios thus far, which has reduced the incentive for creating new versions of the simulators for mass market. There's a reason the last useable Microsoft Sim was 2010. I'm not endorsing Steam by any means and seem to agree with Dark0ne, but flight sims illustrate both the goal of Valve's model and how taking profit out of it discourages even a successful release from being updated or having a sequel.

 

For all its profit potential, Skyrim is the experiment here. The addition of MSX to the workshop by a studio that acquired the rights, with a new version slated for November, brings an a certainty of large profit for Valve from a large and proven community--a community that is often willing to pay dozens of dollars or euro for a single professionally modeled aircraft, a heightmap of a country, or scenery. Skyrim is not MSX, a game is not a simulation, and the communities are wholly different particularly when MSX-derived professional simulators are considered. This doesn't detract from the fact that a large flow of money in amateur and even professional aviation is suddenly right in front of Valve, and they need to have a marketplace installed and tested without risking the community backlash Skyrim was expected to (and is) generating. I can't find statistics on it, but the flight sim market has enough revenue to support the competition of many companies catering to hobbyists.

 

Skyrim is not much different from this as a market, though the average paid-addon-user could be expected to spend less than a simmer. Monetizing (or perhaps never regulating) has created a competitive drive that has made a huge variety of quality addons for sale that took actual investment to make happen, without ending free releases. I can't claim Skyrim will likewise make enough for mod authors to provide customer support as a business would, but incentivising creative output is the same in theory. On the flip side of it, free addons are more than enough if all you want to do is handle an F-22 or Typhoon. Likewise, Skyrim shouldn't get to the point where you're entirely missing something that there's demand for for free--and if I'm wrong, upload it to the Nexus.

 

After this settles down we'll either still have free Skyrim mods on the Nexus, or at worst a high demand for a Skyrim alternative that doesn't make us sick to the stomach to buy addons for. The strong feelings (including the unwarranted anger) at modders making money shows how much this community loves this game. I won't delude myself into thinking that Valve's current model is unsustainable or won't decrease the amount of new free content for a game I love. It very well could. Likewise rather than be neutral about modders getting paid I'm excited for it. Steam, not so much. No matter what, this will likely result in more modder-friendly engines in the future for sandbox rpgs that expect to sell mods, Elder Scrolls or not, and the more broad and accessible the sandbox the more addons will be made for it for sale and for free. I doubt the developers of Long War mod for XCOM: Enemy Within on the Nexus would be able to consider tackling the tremendous effort to make an original alien invasion game after their mod if it was to be (like the mod) free. As with mods goes for games: money incentivizes approaching a market in a way free never can. So I'm off to donate to Long War as soon as I've posted.

 

Valve/Bethesda's approach has major drawbacks, in particular the possibility of paying for free content and thus deincentivizing free resources. For now, I won't pay for a mod on Steam. The best thing the community can do to get more free content is pay for it anyway, including paying for Premium on the Nexus. It takes a bit more thinking than a flat rate purchase, not to mention is harder to track and budget than a subscription, but I'll be donating to modders more now and I encourage you to do the same.

[phantompally76]

In response to post #24633209. #24633374, #24633709, #24633739, #24633824, #24635204, #24636244, #24638839, #24639109, #24645779 are all replies on the same post.

MajorKuchiki wrote:

bigdeano89 wrote: .......why? SKYUI works fine and is still free; I dont see the problem?

Edit: i have to state that, yes i know 5.0 is going to steam, but he has assured us that MCM will not change, so you do not need to update.

MajorKuchiki wrote: sky UI version 5 update is going to be paid only on steamworkshop

Witto wrote: And you believe them that MCM will stay free? I don't. If you can stick few bucks on it, there's gonna be a price tag in few days.

popopipo wrote: And then the sky UI team will threaten them with lawyers...
(If the skyUI team doesn't, one day or another it will arrive with money involved...)

unique1 wrote: Just can't wait to see all the "buy the full version now" popups!

*sigh*

Therandomizer85 wrote: All because the modder in question is a pussy, right?

WightMage wrote: No they won't, because they don't own the rights to their work either. All rights to mods are owned by Bethesda from the moment you agree to the EULA on creation kit.

So if someone wanted to make an alternative, SkyUI's team is SOL.

xBlitzerx wrote: I know, Bethesda could actually make the UI work for PC! Oh wait...

Let's hope someone makes another UI fix. Sorry guys, not paying for a UI mod that should be vanilla.

Saerileth wrote: Would people please just calm down? SkyUI 4 is not a "stripped down freemium" version, it's the very same SkyUI that we have used and enjoyed in the past. No features have been removed from it, and everyone was perfectly happy with it before. So why is it not enough now?

Because the SkyUI team made an updated version of it, with some neat new features, specifically with the intent to sell it. I cannot stress this point enough, this update would probably not have seen the light of day without that incentive. So the situation is this - those unwilling or unable to pay a few dollars for it are no better or worse off than they were the past year, as SkyUI 4 will still be available for everyone. Unless the immature reaction of some users annoys them enough to remove that, as well, and everyone will be left with nothing, in that case I applaud your efforts.

Are these mod authors doing the right thing asking money for their update? That's for them to decide, and frankly none of your business. Decide to buy or not to, but move along. Quite honestly I don't understand the vicious backlash against the SkyUI team, without them this modding community wouldn't even exist today - I for one would not even be playing Skyrim anymore. The fact that they decided to try and get something back for their hard work (and before you say "donations", I've talked to enough people to know that the amount of money donated to the average mod author over the years amounts to zip), does not mean that they have become greedy monsters who sold their souls to Valve/Bethesda/the Devil. They say that the MCM menu will remain free. So trust them - if and when they break that promise, then you can bring out the pitchforks.

@bigdeano89, moving forward, more and more mods will have to be compatible with 5.0 in order to be compatible with other mods, and so on (snowball effect).

Hence, more and more modders and mod authors will be FORCED to participate in buying mods on Steam (yes, even for as little as 99 cents, but it's still the principle of the matter) whether they fundamentally believe that it's ethical or not. Their only alternative is to create mods that use an older, UNSUPPORTED version of SKYUI that may or may not still be available in future (SKYUI's devs are being extremely glib, smug and arrogant about the entire matter), and those mods will not be compatible with the latest versions of <every mod uploaded to Steam Payshop>.

NOW do you see the problem?

[dpgillam]

I find a rather curious duality in this topic.

 

Those that produce the better mods, and keep them up to date; stay in contact with "the fans", and bug-check, are most often the ones that espouse freeware mods, freely allow fair-use of their works to build compilations, and generally treat this as a hobby where we come together as a community for the betterment of the game.

 

As an amateur mod maker myself, I do this because I enjoy the changing as much as than the playing, especially in a game as buggy as Skyrim.

 

Those that decry most trying to protect "their hard work", and complain, saying they "deserve reward, generally make half-assed mods, dont maintain what they make, assure you that the flaws are from every mod but theirs (because they can somehow miraculously unbug Skyrim when Bethesda couldnt :roll: ) and guard their mods as if the mod was 5 tonnes of gold. (I cant support the ludicrous idea of "IP", since everyone is using Beth CK in a Beth engine with Beth resources, and there hasnt been an original "fantasy" idea for over a century)

 

In short, the people I want to pay wouldnt turn down a donation, but honestly couldnt care less about the money; thats not why they're here, not why they do this. The people wanting the money tend to be ones I wouldnt cross the street to piss on if they were on fire. I wouldnt give them a forged penny if I had all Ted Turner's Billions.

 

If that was too complicated, consider this: when you want to be paid, you make yourself an employee. So, what convinces me I shouldnt fire you?