Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop

[Phychosis]

In response to post #24771999. #24772144, #24772774, #24772924, #24773434, #24776364, #24776744, #24777839, #24777939, #24793649 are all replies on the same post.

zanity wrote:

Nidhoegger wrote: Because some of us are old enough to still remember when we actually owned our games.

macintroll wrote: People do not want to pay for mods = they are right
Modders would like to get some $ from their work = they are right too

Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

- Modder get some $ depending on mod popularity / page views / ads clicked
- player can download for free all mods.
- A moderation, a rating system and users reviews to keep things in the right way like it is already in place here.

So only Advertisers pay like everywhere else on the internet...
It's not the mod itself which is rewarded, it's popularity and audience like any youtube video.

Sound too simple or ?

phantompally76 wrote: This.

It will be a cold day in Hell before I pay a monthly subscription for the privilege of serving as quality control for mods of varying quality and value that may or may not even work.

The complete and utter lack of common sense among proponents of amateur mod monetization is frightening.

CyrusFyre wrote: I will give you a very good reason why I won't be and will strongly and loudly discourage others from paying a monthly subscription to getting mods. Because when you pay to play a game with a monthly subscription the game developer is obligated to continue providing updates, patches and so forth to their game. Now (and this is actually a big factor in my paid vs free considerations as well) mod authors are under no such obligation. In my opinion if you are charging money for your mod then you are now providing a service and as such should be subjected to upholding certain obligations. How many mods have been made that started good but then get abandoned because the author loses interests, their PC has issues, Real Life starts kicking their A$$, etc.?

Just what protects the mod users from this? We pay for something we don’t necessarily receive, quality. And for older games like Skyirm that isn’t such a big deal because no new patches will be coming out but with a game like Fallout 4 they will be patching and modding right alongside each other. How many mods get broken by patches? Who will enforce that these mod authors have to fix the broken mods you’ve paid for? It is expected that if Bethesda released a DLC and then a patch that broke the DLC that they would immediately get to fixing that DLC. Mod authors have no such obligation.

And for a measly 25% maybe they shouldn’t have such an obligation. I agree with macintroll suggests and use ads to pay for things and have a donation button so that people can reward those who are truly amazing. And for those who just hate ads go the way of YouTube and Premium Nexus and TSR and pay a subscription to remove the frigging ads.

user134 wrote: @Cyrus: Exactly! Modders don't have resources (namely engineers, time and money) at their disposal to make everything public ready. And surely, like you touched on, a company like Bethesda would be in much deeper s#*! if their game didn't work, than some lowly modder.
That said, I don't think ads are the solution. That's why even people who aren't tech savvy know how to write obscure adblock+ rules. :-P In all seriousness, people are already tired of being bombarded with (usually) irrelevant and/or intrusive ads.

macintroll wrote: @user134 : Ads are a (little) annoyance till they don't block everything on the page,
But It's ads who are keeping free sites like nexus alive, ads that permit you to use at no cost facebook, google tools and all major free-content websites.
when there's no ads you have to pay. And simply if you want to support free content sites, just click on their ads they will have more incomes that way than any lifetime subscription.. and it's still free for you.

user134 wrote: I understand the implications. But my point is modders must acknowledge they're volunteering, not attempting to make a career off of a game, with a team of beta testers and engineers on their payroll. This is how its always been. I also question the legality of your idea, because wouldn't this require reverse engineering Skyrim itself (surely the CK has its limitations)?
Personally, I'm fine with a donate button. It means I don't need to test a mod as intensely to ensure proper functionality, or worry about being provided with something of low quality at an unfair price. I'm not against paying modders and I will acknowledge when something's good, but I'm sorry.. simply releasing a mod doesn't necessitate payment.

Edit: wording.

arxerisdam wrote: Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

Thats a good idea.

Still i wonder how many people will be willing to pay for a mod.

For a game you already have to pay $60+ and still give 75% of the mod price to the game developer, better they start making free to play games and sell stuff like sword of power $10 for a week of use

Is just crazy.

and there is the problem with bugs in bethesta games that are left for modders to fix is just not logical.

And what guarantee we have such mods are compatible and will be in full working and bug free, even developers release games with lots of bugs and people still buy them, mod makers can just stop developing the mods in any stage with no repercution or responsability.

Quality control!!!!

Thats another issue, who will watch for the quality of the mods.

Compatibility between mods.

Thats a big problem, a lot of mods arent compatible with each other, all mods need to be standardized, because if you install any mod you need to do a lot of stuff to keep it compatible with other mods.


And finally, maybe a lot of modders think been an user is a priviledge, well im sorry but i think the more important thing than anything else if yuo want to start selling your mods is that you please and respect the customers, because in the end its they who are spending their money in your mod.

And rigth now modders can have the liberty to send to hell users who use the mod for free but once you start charging money for them it will only give you bad name.

so for paid mods be a reality there is a long path ahead.

macintroll wrote: @ arxerisdam
Not sure to understand your points ?

If advertising pay the modder, the mod is still 100% free for users.
It's exactly the same as here currently : a mod page, people read, check and download. Done

Some ads are shown on the page, those ads give money to the "content provider" aka the modder account, exactly like the youtube concept. (google adsense do this very well ^^)

The more popular is the mod (pages view, clicks), the more advertising is giving money to the modder.
No payment, no price for mod, no more difference for the end user.
free mods, and retribution for the "content maker" like everywhere else.

Yeah won't happen, If they tried making a monthly subscription for people to use mods the game won't sell, I wouldn't buy it and a lot of others wouldn't. Mods is one of the reason I play these games if I had to buy a $60 game then pay monthly to keep the mods I play with in it no matter how low it is I would be paying them for the rest of my life as I still play mirrowind with mods in it after 12 years of owning it, as well as oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and of course Skyrim. I still play all of them, now if fallout 4 had a monthly subscription and I did buy it do you think I would still play it 12 years later if when I went back to play it I couldn't use the mods I had in my save game. The company would lose money, lose fans, because we know how great the monthly subscription work for playing ESO and how many people kept playing it after they beat it.

[greggorypeccary]

The Nexus.......Hm......What a weird place. It has multiple personalities of that I am sure. There are illusions here, some just occur naturally but some are deliberate. There is a balancing act that is very delicate and very much in danger. If the next steps taken are not very carefully considered the results could be problematic.

 

I am an artist. I paint, sculpt, write and mod. I made one mod for New Vegas that I released. It was my first mod. I don't do things in a small way so my mod is big. It adds characters and places and has a story. I found out that making a mod can be a lot of work. I also found out that with out the help and advise of the modders here in the community I couldn't have done it. Whenever I ran into something that I need help with all I needed to do was ask and someone would offer their experience. When I needed voice actors I got them from the community. The texture work came freely offered to me from a member of the modding community as did the music. I made friends all over the world, people I wish I could sit down and have a meal with but I will never meet.

When I started it I didn't even consider the possibility of making money. As I worked on it however , I became aware of the donate button. The more work I put into it the more I thought that there was a possibility that the users would realize and be inclined to donate. I still didn't expect much but thought maybe a little would be nice.

 

After months of work I was ready to release it. If you have released your first mod I don't have to say anything more, you know what that is like. If you have never released one, let me tell you it is a stressful, emotional, wonderful moment. Your heart is pounding when you click that button. Will they like it? Will they hate it? Worse yet, will they ignore it? Luckily people seem to like it. It didn't make a huge splash and become the talk of the entire Nexus but the people that commented on it enjoyed it. I got endorsements but they don't taste good, I'm going to try to wear them. Most people took it and never said anything, like it is some kind of low hanging fruit. That is kind of disappointing. But they did pay their subscription or saw the advertising so the did pay for it. Just not me.

 

I view it as a positive experience. My mod has been out for a while . I made no money. I made friends. I learned. Will I ever put that much work into something that has no value? No. I will still create but I gotta eat so my time cannot be spent on non profit things. I'm just not in that kind of financial position. Wish I was. Big mods take time, time is money. Right?

 

The people that I have dealt with personally in the community have been overwhelmingly helpful and positive. But there is an undercurrent of very ungrateful and rude behavior that cannot be ignored. I see it and so does everyone else. It eats away at the core and causes animosity between creators and their audience. Who could benefit from such a schism? Who has to walk the tightrope between the Modders and the users? Who benefits monetarily from free mods the most?

 

The Nexus....Hm......Without it I couldn't have met those people. My friends and those helpfull modders. I guess it's a benevolent place Right? Kinda like a nice old Uncle that lets you play in his yard, Right? There is no way Modders are being used by The Nexus is there? No one could be getting rich from the work of the modders here could they? No one dodged a bullet here did they? Some one needs to show respect to the people that create their bread and butter. Maybe if some of that bread was shared mods can be free for the users in the future. If the next steps taken are not very carefully considered the results could be very problematic

[UnitedStrafes]

In response to post #24771999. #24772144, #24772774, #24772924, #24773434, #24776364, #24776744, #24777839, #24777939, #24793649, #24794624 are all replies on the same post.

zanity wrote:

Nidhoegger wrote: Because some of us are old enough to still remember when we actually owned our games.

macintroll wrote: People do not want to pay for mods = they are right
Modders would like to get some $ from their work = they are right too

Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

- Modder get some $ depending on mod popularity / page views / ads clicked
- player can download for free all mods.
- A moderation, a rating system and users reviews to keep things in the right way like it is already in place here.

So only Advertisers pay like everywhere else on the internet...
It's not the mod itself which is rewarded, it's popularity and audience like any youtube video.

Sound too simple or ?

phantompally76 wrote: This.

It will be a cold day in Hell before I pay a monthly subscription for the privilege of serving as quality control for mods of varying quality and value that may or may not even work.

The complete and utter lack of common sense among proponents of amateur mod monetization is frightening.

CyrusFyre wrote: I will give you a very good reason why I won't be and will strongly and loudly discourage others from paying a monthly subscription to getting mods. Because when you pay to play a game with a monthly subscription the game developer is obligated to continue providing updates, patches and so forth to their game. Now (and this is actually a big factor in my paid vs free considerations as well) mod authors are under no such obligation. In my opinion if you are charging money for your mod then you are now providing a service and as such should be subjected to upholding certain obligations. How many mods have been made that started good but then get abandoned because the author loses interests, their PC has issues, Real Life starts kicking their A$$, etc.?

Just what protects the mod users from this? We pay for something we don’t necessarily receive, quality. And for older games like Skyirm that isn’t such a big deal because no new patches will be coming out but with a game like Fallout 4 they will be patching and modding right alongside each other. How many mods get broken by patches? Who will enforce that these mod authors have to fix the broken mods you’ve paid for? It is expected that if Bethesda released a DLC and then a patch that broke the DLC that they would immediately get to fixing that DLC. Mod authors have no such obligation.

And for a measly 25% maybe they shouldn’t have such an obligation. I agree with macintroll suggests and use ads to pay for things and have a donation button so that people can reward those who are truly amazing. And for those who just hate ads go the way of YouTube and Premium Nexus and TSR and pay a subscription to remove the frigging ads.

user134 wrote: @Cyrus: Exactly! Modders don't have resources (namely engineers, time and money) at their disposal to make everything public ready. And surely, like you touched on, a company like Bethesda would be in much deeper s#*! if their game didn't work, than some lowly modder.
That said, I don't think ads are the solution. That's why even people who aren't tech savvy know how to write obscure adblock+ rules. :-P In all seriousness, people are already tired of being bombarded with (usually) irrelevant and/or intrusive ads.

macintroll wrote: @user134 : Ads are a (little) annoyance till they don't block everything on the page,
But It's ads who are keeping free sites like nexus alive, ads that permit you to use at no cost facebook, google tools and all major free-content websites.
when there's no ads you have to pay. And simply if you want to support free content sites, just click on their ads they will have more incomes that way than any lifetime subscription.. and it's still free for you.

user134 wrote: I understand the implications. But my point is modders must acknowledge they're volunteering, not attempting to make a career off of a game, with a team of beta testers and engineers on their payroll. This is how its always been. I also question the legality of your idea, because wouldn't this require reverse engineering Skyrim itself (surely the CK has its limitations)?
Personally, I'm fine with a donate button. It means I don't need to test a mod as intensely to ensure proper functionality, or worry about being provided with something of low quality at an unfair price. I'm not against paying modders and I will acknowledge when something's good, but I'm sorry.. simply releasing a mod doesn't necessitate payment.

Edit: wording.

arxerisdam wrote: Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

Thats a good idea.

Still i wonder how many people will be willing to pay for a mod.

For a game you already have to pay $60+ and still give 75% of the mod price to the game developer, better they start making free to play games and sell stuff like sword of power $10 for a week of use

Is just crazy.

and there is the problem with bugs in bethesta games that are left for modders to fix is just not logical.

And what guarantee we have such mods are compatible and will be in full working and bug free, even developers release games with lots of bugs and people still buy them, mod makers can just stop developing the mods in any stage with no repercution or responsability.

Quality control!!!!

Thats another issue, who will watch for the quality of the mods.

Compatibility between mods.

Thats a big problem, a lot of mods arent compatible with each other, all mods need to be standardized, because if you install any mod you need to do a lot of stuff to keep it compatible with other mods.


And finally, maybe a lot of modders think been an user is a priviledge, well im sorry but i think the more important thing than anything else if yuo want to start selling your mods is that you please and respect the customers, because in the end its they who are spending their money in your mod.

And rigth now modders can have the liberty to send to hell users who use the mod for free but once you start charging money for them it will only give you bad name.

so for paid mods be a reality there is a long path ahead.

macintroll wrote: @ arxerisdam
Not sure to understand your points ?

If advertising pay the modder, the mod is still 100% free for users.
It's exactly the same as here currently : a mod page, people read, check and download. Done

Some ads are shown on the page, those ads give money to the "content provider" aka the modder account, exactly like the youtube concept. (google adsense do this very well ^^)

The more popular is the mod (pages view, clicks), the more advertising is giving money to the modder.
No payment, no price for mod, no more difference for the end user.
free mods, and retribution for the "content maker" like everywhere else.

Phychosis wrote: Yeah won't happen, If they tried making a monthly subscription for people to use mods the game won't sell, I wouldn't buy it and a lot of others wouldn't. Mods is one of the reason I play these games if I had to buy a $60 game then pay monthly to keep the mods I play with in it no matter how low it is I would be paying them for the rest of my life as I still play mirrowind with mods in it after 12 years of owning it, as well as oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and of course Skyrim. I still play all of them, now if fallout 4 had a monthly subscription and I did buy it do you think I would still play it 12 years later if when I went back to play it I couldn't use the mods I had in my save game. The company would lose money, lose fans, because we know how great the monthly subscription work for playing ESO and how many people kept playing it after they beat it.

It won't be optimal because I still won't pay for it, neither will the majority of anyone else. I don't need to be subscribing or being nickle and dimed by every game I buy, and I won't be, they can DO it sure, but they won't be seeing any of my money.

I just wouldn't buy or play that game....lotsa other games out there.

[sirius2u]

interesting turn of events, in my opinion the community shot itself in the foot there but I highly doubt that the reaction of a few trolls was the reason for Bethesda to cancel the project,

I would guess they conculed that the money was not worth the headache.

 

I dont think anybody is to blame but Bethesda for bad communication,

if they had taken the time and asked the community for ideas then the outcome of this

would have been much different.

 

Trying to monitize something that was free before will not make you popular, thats a given,

if they were not expecting some backlash that would be naive.

Nothing prevents Bethesda to support promissing modders individually, some of those guys would be delighted to produce a mod for Betheda to be sold on the Valve store as DLC.

 

In any case this was a nice try, too bad Bethesda was unwilling to iron out the details and defend the modders.

 

[macintroll]

In response to post #24794924.

greggorypeccary wrote:

Very well done resume of the situation.
This fit so well with my idea of a "youtube-like ads solution" to keep the free mods for all and also give some retribution to the content providers aka the modders.

[Lioness446]

Even if Bethesda and Valve had nothing but good intentions for this system, even if this system was designed to be the perfect mod maker support machine they claimed it was, I am glad this incident happened the way it did. If Valve and Bethesda had ulterior motives and/or try to implement a shady practice into their games in the future, they'll know the gamers aren't going to take it lying down. If some corrupt, greedy CEO ever takes over one or both of the companies, they'll know they can't so easily take advantage of us.

[Grandsome]

In response to post #24771999. #24772144, #24772774, #24772924, #24773434, #24776364, #24776744, #24777839, #24777939, #24793649, #24794624, #24795194 are all replies on the same post.

zanity wrote:

Nidhoegger wrote: Because some of us are old enough to still remember when we actually owned our games.

macintroll wrote: People do not want to pay for mods = they are right
Modders would like to get some $ from their work = they are right too

Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

- Modder get some $ depending on mod popularity / page views / ads clicked
- player can download for free all mods.
- A moderation, a rating system and users reviews to keep things in the right way like it is already in place here.

So only Advertisers pay like everywhere else on the internet...
It's not the mod itself which is rewarded, it's popularity and audience like any youtube video.

Sound too simple or ?

phantompally76 wrote: This.

It will be a cold day in Hell before I pay a monthly subscription for the privilege of serving as quality control for mods of varying quality and value that may or may not even work.

The complete and utter lack of common sense among proponents of amateur mod monetization is frightening.

CyrusFyre wrote: I will give you a very good reason why I won't be and will strongly and loudly discourage others from paying a monthly subscription to getting mods. Because when you pay to play a game with a monthly subscription the game developer is obligated to continue providing updates, patches and so forth to their game. Now (and this is actually a big factor in my paid vs free considerations as well) mod authors are under no such obligation. In my opinion if you are charging money for your mod then you are now providing a service and as such should be subjected to upholding certain obligations. How many mods have been made that started good but then get abandoned because the author loses interests, their PC has issues, Real Life starts kicking their A$$, etc.?

Just what protects the mod users from this? We pay for something we don’t necessarily receive, quality. And for older games like Skyirm that isn’t such a big deal because no new patches will be coming out but with a game like Fallout 4 they will be patching and modding right alongside each other. How many mods get broken by patches? Who will enforce that these mod authors have to fix the broken mods you’ve paid for? It is expected that if Bethesda released a DLC and then a patch that broke the DLC that they would immediately get to fixing that DLC. Mod authors have no such obligation.

And for a measly 25% maybe they shouldn’t have such an obligation. I agree with macintroll suggests and use ads to pay for things and have a donation button so that people can reward those who are truly amazing. And for those who just hate ads go the way of YouTube and Premium Nexus and TSR and pay a subscription to remove the frigging ads.

user134 wrote: @Cyrus: Exactly! Modders don't have resources (namely engineers, time and money) at their disposal to make everything public ready. And surely, like you touched on, a company like Bethesda would be in much deeper s#*! if their game didn't work, than some lowly modder.
That said, I don't think ads are the solution. That's why even people who aren't tech savvy know how to write obscure adblock+ rules. :-P In all seriousness, people are already tired of being bombarded with (usually) irrelevant and/or intrusive ads.

macintroll wrote: @user134 : Ads are a (little) annoyance till they don't block everything on the page,
But It's ads who are keeping free sites like nexus alive, ads that permit you to use at no cost facebook, google tools and all major free-content websites.
when there's no ads you have to pay. And simply if you want to support free content sites, just click on their ads they will have more incomes that way than any lifetime subscription.. and it's still free for you.

user134 wrote: I understand the implications. But my point is modders must acknowledge they're volunteering, not attempting to make a career off of a game, with a team of beta testers and engineers on their payroll. This is how its always been. I also question the legality of your idea, because wouldn't this require reverse engineering Skyrim itself (surely the CK has its limitations)?
Personally, I'm fine with a donate button. It means I don't need to test a mod as intensely to ensure proper functionality, or worry about being provided with something of low quality at an unfair price. I'm not against paying modders and I will acknowledge when something's good, but I'm sorry.. simply releasing a mod doesn't necessitate payment.

Edit: wording.

arxerisdam wrote: Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

Thats a good idea.

Still i wonder how many people will be willing to pay for a mod.

For a game you already have to pay $60+ and still give 75% of the mod price to the game developer, better they start making free to play games and sell stuff like sword of power $10 for a week of use

Is just crazy.

and there is the problem with bugs in bethesta games that are left for modders to fix is just not logical.

And what guarantee we have such mods are compatible and will be in full working and bug free, even developers release games with lots of bugs and people still buy them, mod makers can just stop developing the mods in any stage with no repercution or responsability.

Quality control!!!!

Thats another issue, who will watch for the quality of the mods.

Compatibility between mods.

Thats a big problem, a lot of mods arent compatible with each other, all mods need to be standardized, because if you install any mod you need to do a lot of stuff to keep it compatible with other mods.


And finally, maybe a lot of modders think been an user is a priviledge, well im sorry but i think the more important thing than anything else if yuo want to start selling your mods is that you please and respect the customers, because in the end its they who are spending their money in your mod.

And rigth now modders can have the liberty to send to hell users who use the mod for free but once you start charging money for them it will only give you bad name.

so for paid mods be a reality there is a long path ahead.

macintroll wrote: @ arxerisdam
Not sure to understand your points ?

If advertising pay the modder, the mod is still 100% free for users.
It's exactly the same as here currently : a mod page, people read, check and download. Done

Some ads are shown on the page, those ads give money to the "content provider" aka the modder account, exactly like the youtube concept. (google adsense do this very well ^^)

The more popular is the mod (pages view, clicks), the more advertising is giving money to the modder.
No payment, no price for mod, no more difference for the end user.
free mods, and retribution for the "content maker" like everywhere else.

Phychosis wrote: Yeah won't happen, If they tried making a monthly subscription for people to use mods the game won't sell, I wouldn't buy it and a lot of others wouldn't. Mods is one of the reason I play these games if I had to buy a $60 game then pay monthly to keep the mods I play with in it no matter how low it is I would be paying them for the rest of my life as I still play mirrowind with mods in it after 12 years of owning it, as well as oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and of course Skyrim. I still play all of them, now if fallout 4 had a monthly subscription and I did buy it do you think I would still play it 12 years later if when I went back to play it I couldn't use the mods I had in my save game. The company would lose money, lose fans, because we know how great the monthly subscription work for playing ESO and how many people kept playing it after they beat it.

UnitedStrafes wrote: It won't be optimal because I still won't pay for it, neither will the majority of anyone else. I don't need to be subscribing or being nickle and dimed by every game I buy, and I won't be, they can DO it sure, but they won't be seeing any of my money.

I just wouldn't buy or play that game....lotsa other games out there.

I'll copy part of a post I did on the steam forum yesterday on how that thing could work:


"With that out of the way, I think it's time to bring back the era of the Demo. Either have a say XX hours of *game-play* (not that clock crap origin uses) to test the mod and see if it's okay. Or modders, that are now developers at this point, make a functioning un-crippled alternate lite/free [mandatory] version of their mod. This would also ensure that nobody is stealing anybody's work because during those XX hours a community curator/savy user would have access to the assets. The alternate lite version should also share all their assets with the paid version.

As for prices, valve should just copy the pay-what-you-want of Humble Bundle, with average paid price and all, and maybe a non-in-game related bonus if you pay more than average like a donation or something. (for #humblebragging)

To split the revenues, not lower than 33.3333333333333...% for the modder, you know, splitting the price equally in three for modder/dev/valve. I think that's the less offensive split they can make, but ideally, modders should get more, maybe relative to the size of the mod. And a possibility for modders to renegotiate any time, they should also have complete control over their *original* content, valve shouldn't have the right to retain a mod even if the author retired it.

For support, both the devs and valve should be part of the process, both get a cut it's also their responsibility. Partial refund (50%?) should be emitted with no question asked if a mod stops working after a game update or a major update from the author. Well, I said no question, I meant that if it is still broken after human support has failed. And if support is not given within the 48hrs of the demand then it should be an automatic refund. If it stops working soon after-purchase it should be in full (the grace period should be still at least >24hrs), no matter if the game or the mod just updated."

[MrDave]

An interesting note that should be addressed at this time is, the number of illegal mods being poured onto the Steam Workshop has more than quadrupled in the past 48 hours. As of last night I had reported 9 mods for using other people's works illegally, 4 mods which were flat out uploaded illegally in their entirety and two mods which I had to personally DMCA because the fool posted my work in them on the Workshop, which has never been allowed. All of these were uploaded in the last 48 hours.

[macintroll]

In response to post #24771999. #24772144, #24772774, #24772924, #24773434, #24776364, #24776744, #24777839, #24777939, #24793649, #24794624, #24795194, #24796354 are all replies on the same post.

zanity wrote:

Nidhoegger wrote: Because some of us are old enough to still remember when we actually owned our games.

macintroll wrote: People do not want to pay for mods = they are right
Modders would like to get some $ from their work = they are right too

Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

- Modder get some $ depending on mod popularity / page views / ads clicked
- player can download for free all mods.
- A moderation, a rating system and users reviews to keep things in the right way like it is already in place here.

So only Advertisers pay like everywhere else on the internet...
It's not the mod itself which is rewarded, it's popularity and audience like any youtube video.

Sound too simple or ?

phantompally76 wrote: This.

It will be a cold day in Hell before I pay a monthly subscription for the privilege of serving as quality control for mods of varying quality and value that may or may not even work.

The complete and utter lack of common sense among proponents of amateur mod monetization is frightening.

CyrusFyre wrote: I will give you a very good reason why I won't be and will strongly and loudly discourage others from paying a monthly subscription to getting mods. Because when you pay to play a game with a monthly subscription the game developer is obligated to continue providing updates, patches and so forth to their game. Now (and this is actually a big factor in my paid vs free considerations as well) mod authors are under no such obligation. In my opinion if you are charging money for your mod then you are now providing a service and as such should be subjected to upholding certain obligations. How many mods have been made that started good but then get abandoned because the author loses interests, their PC has issues, Real Life starts kicking their A$$, etc.?

Just what protects the mod users from this? We pay for something we don’t necessarily receive, quality. And for older games like Skyirm that isn’t such a big deal because no new patches will be coming out but with a game like Fallout 4 they will be patching and modding right alongside each other. How many mods get broken by patches? Who will enforce that these mod authors have to fix the broken mods you’ve paid for? It is expected that if Bethesda released a DLC and then a patch that broke the DLC that they would immediately get to fixing that DLC. Mod authors have no such obligation.

And for a measly 25% maybe they shouldn’t have such an obligation. I agree with macintroll suggests and use ads to pay for things and have a donation button so that people can reward those who are truly amazing. And for those who just hate ads go the way of YouTube and Premium Nexus and TSR and pay a subscription to remove the frigging ads.

user134 wrote: @Cyrus: Exactly! Modders don't have resources (namely engineers, time and money) at their disposal to make everything public ready. And surely, like you touched on, a company like Bethesda would be in much deeper s#*! if their game didn't work, than some lowly modder.
That said, I don't think ads are the solution. That's why even people who aren't tech savvy know how to write obscure adblock+ rules. :-P In all seriousness, people are already tired of being bombarded with (usually) irrelevant and/or intrusive ads.

macintroll wrote: @user134 : Ads are a (little) annoyance till they don't block everything on the page,
But It's ads who are keeping free sites like nexus alive, ads that permit you to use at no cost facebook, google tools and all major free-content websites.
when there's no ads you have to pay. And simply if you want to support free content sites, just click on their ads they will have more incomes that way than any lifetime subscription.. and it's still free for you.

user134 wrote: I understand the implications. But my point is modders must acknowledge they're volunteering, not attempting to make a career off of a game, with a team of beta testers and engineers on their payroll. This is how its always been. I also question the legality of your idea, because wouldn't this require reverse engineering Skyrim itself (surely the CK has its limitations)?
Personally, I'm fine with a donate button. It means I don't need to test a mod as intensely to ensure proper functionality, or worry about being provided with something of low quality at an unfair price. I'm not against paying modders and I will acknowledge when something's good, but I'm sorry.. simply releasing a mod doesn't necessitate payment.

Edit: wording.

arxerisdam wrote: Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

Thats a good idea.

Still i wonder how many people will be willing to pay for a mod.

For a game you already have to pay $60+ and still give 75% of the mod price to the game developer, better they start making free to play games and sell stuff like sword of power $10 for a week of use

Is just crazy.

and there is the problem with bugs in bethesta games that are left for modders to fix is just not logical.

And what guarantee we have such mods are compatible and will be in full working and bug free, even developers release games with lots of bugs and people still buy them, mod makers can just stop developing the mods in any stage with no repercution or responsability.

Quality control!!!!

Thats another issue, who will watch for the quality of the mods.

Compatibility between mods.

Thats a big problem, a lot of mods arent compatible with each other, all mods need to be standardized, because if you install any mod you need to do a lot of stuff to keep it compatible with other mods.


And finally, maybe a lot of modders think been an user is a priviledge, well im sorry but i think the more important thing than anything else if yuo want to start selling your mods is that you please and respect the customers, because in the end its they who are spending their money in your mod.

And rigth now modders can have the liberty to send to hell users who use the mod for free but once you start charging money for them it will only give you bad name.

so for paid mods be a reality there is a long path ahead.

macintroll wrote: @ arxerisdam
Not sure to understand your points ?

If advertising pay the modder, the mod is still 100% free for users.
It's exactly the same as here currently : a mod page, people read, check and download. Done

Some ads are shown on the page, those ads give money to the "content provider" aka the modder account, exactly like the youtube concept. (google adsense do this very well ^^)

The more popular is the mod (pages view, clicks), the more advertising is giving money to the modder.
No payment, no price for mod, no more difference for the end user.
free mods, and retribution for the "content maker" like everywhere else.

Phychosis wrote: Yeah won't happen, If they tried making a monthly subscription for people to use mods the game won't sell, I wouldn't buy it and a lot of others wouldn't. Mods is one of the reason I play these games if I had to buy a $60 game then pay monthly to keep the mods I play with in it no matter how low it is I would be paying them for the rest of my life as I still play mirrowind with mods in it after 12 years of owning it, as well as oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and of course Skyrim. I still play all of them, now if fallout 4 had a monthly subscription and I did buy it do you think I would still play it 12 years later if when I went back to play it I couldn't use the mods I had in my save game. The company would lose money, lose fans, because we know how great the monthly subscription work for playing ESO and how many people kept playing it after they beat it.

UnitedStrafes wrote: It won't be optimal because I still won't pay for it, neither will the majority of anyone else. I don't need to be subscribing or being nickle and dimed by every game I buy, and I won't be, they can DO it sure, but they won't be seeing any of my money.

I just wouldn't buy or play that game....lotsa other games out there.

Grandsome wrote: I'll copy part of a post I did on the steam forum yesterday on how that thing could work:


"With that out of the way, I think it's time to bring back the era of the Demo. Either have a say XX hours of *game-play* (not that clock crap origin uses) to test the mod and see if it's okay. Or modders, that are now developers at this point, make a functioning un-crippled alternate lite/free [mandatory] version of their mod. This would also ensure that nobody is stealing anybody's work because during those XX hours a community curator/savy user would have access to the assets. The alternate lite version should also share all their assets with the paid version.

As for prices, valve should just copy the pay-what-you-want of Humble Bundle, with average paid price and all, and maybe a non-in-game related bonus if you pay more than average like a donation or something. (for #humblebragging)

To split the revenues, not lower than 33.3333333333333...% for the modder, you know, splitting the price equally in three for modder/dev/valve. I think that's the less offensive split they can make, but ideally, modders should get more, maybe relative to the size of the mod. And a possibility for modders to renegotiate any time, they should also have complete control over their *original* content, valve shouldn't have the right to retain a mod even if the author retired it.

For support, both the devs and valve should be part of the process, both get a cut it's also their responsibility. Partial refund (50%?) should be emitted with no question asked if a mod stops working after a game update or a major update from the author. Well, I said no question, I meant that if it is still broken after human support has failed. And if support is not given within the 48hrs of the demand then it should be an automatic refund. If it stops working soon after-purchase it should be in full (the grace period should be still at least >24hrs), no matter if the game or the mod just updated."

But WHY do you all want to pay mods ??? this was just done 2 days ago .. remember ?

[MrDave]

In response to post #24771999. #24772144, #24772774, #24772924, #24773434, #24776364, #24776744, #24777839, #24777939, #24793649, #24794624, #24795194, #24796354, #24796489 are all replies on the same post.

zanity wrote:

Nidhoegger wrote: Because some of us are old enough to still remember when we actually owned our games.

macintroll wrote: People do not want to pay for mods = they are right
Modders would like to get some $ from their work = they are right too

Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

- Modder get some $ depending on mod popularity / page views / ads clicked
- player can download for free all mods.
- A moderation, a rating system and users reviews to keep things in the right way like it is already in place here.

So only Advertisers pay like everywhere else on the internet...
It's not the mod itself which is rewarded, it's popularity and audience like any youtube video.

Sound too simple or ?

phantompally76 wrote: This.

It will be a cold day in Hell before I pay a monthly subscription for the privilege of serving as quality control for mods of varying quality and value that may or may not even work.

The complete and utter lack of common sense among proponents of amateur mod monetization is frightening.

CyrusFyre wrote: I will give you a very good reason why I won't be and will strongly and loudly discourage others from paying a monthly subscription to getting mods. Because when you pay to play a game with a monthly subscription the game developer is obligated to continue providing updates, patches and so forth to their game. Now (and this is actually a big factor in my paid vs free considerations as well) mod authors are under no such obligation. In my opinion if you are charging money for your mod then you are now providing a service and as such should be subjected to upholding certain obligations. How many mods have been made that started good but then get abandoned because the author loses interests, their PC has issues, Real Life starts kicking their A$$, etc.?

Just what protects the mod users from this? We pay for something we don’t necessarily receive, quality. And for older games like Skyirm that isn’t such a big deal because no new patches will be coming out but with a game like Fallout 4 they will be patching and modding right alongside each other. How many mods get broken by patches? Who will enforce that these mod authors have to fix the broken mods you’ve paid for? It is expected that if Bethesda released a DLC and then a patch that broke the DLC that they would immediately get to fixing that DLC. Mod authors have no such obligation.

And for a measly 25% maybe they shouldn’t have such an obligation. I agree with macintroll suggests and use ads to pay for things and have a donation button so that people can reward those who are truly amazing. And for those who just hate ads go the way of YouTube and Premium Nexus and TSR and pay a subscription to remove the frigging ads.

user134 wrote: @Cyrus: Exactly! Modders don't have resources (namely engineers, time and money) at their disposal to make everything public ready. And surely, like you touched on, a company like Bethesda would be in much deeper s#*! if their game didn't work, than some lowly modder.
That said, I don't think ads are the solution. That's why even people who aren't tech savvy know how to write obscure adblock+ rules. :-P In all seriousness, people are already tired of being bombarded with (usually) irrelevant and/or intrusive ads.

macintroll wrote: @user134 : Ads are a (little) annoyance till they don't block everything on the page,
But It's ads who are keeping free sites like nexus alive, ads that permit you to use at no cost facebook, google tools and all major free-content websites.
when there's no ads you have to pay. And simply if you want to support free content sites, just click on their ads they will have more incomes that way than any lifetime subscription.. and it's still free for you.

user134 wrote: I understand the implications. But my point is modders must acknowledge they're volunteering, not attempting to make a career off of a game, with a team of beta testers and engineers on their payroll. This is how its always been. I also question the legality of your idea, because wouldn't this require reverse engineering Skyrim itself (surely the CK has its limitations)?
Personally, I'm fine with a donate button. It means I don't need to test a mod as intensely to ensure proper functionality, or worry about being provided with something of low quality at an unfair price. I'm not against paying modders and I will acknowledge when something's good, but I'm sorry.. simply releasing a mod doesn't necessitate payment.

Edit: wording.

arxerisdam wrote: Why not use the same concept as youtube ?

Ads are paying the youtubber, not the users.
Why not doing the same for mods ?

Thats a good idea.

Still i wonder how many people will be willing to pay for a mod.

For a game you already have to pay $60+ and still give 75% of the mod price to the game developer, better they start making free to play games and sell stuff like sword of power $10 for a week of use

Is just crazy.

and there is the problem with bugs in bethesta games that are left for modders to fix is just not logical.

And what guarantee we have such mods are compatible and will be in full working and bug free, even developers release games with lots of bugs and people still buy them, mod makers can just stop developing the mods in any stage with no repercution or responsability.

Quality control!!!!

Thats another issue, who will watch for the quality of the mods.

Compatibility between mods.

Thats a big problem, a lot of mods arent compatible with each other, all mods need to be standardized, because if you install any mod you need to do a lot of stuff to keep it compatible with other mods.


And finally, maybe a lot of modders think been an user is a priviledge, well im sorry but i think the more important thing than anything else if yuo want to start selling your mods is that you please and respect the customers, because in the end its they who are spending their money in your mod.

And rigth now modders can have the liberty to send to hell users who use the mod for free but once you start charging money for them it will only give you bad name.

so for paid mods be a reality there is a long path ahead.

macintroll wrote: @ arxerisdam
Not sure to understand your points ?

If advertising pay the modder, the mod is still 100% free for users.
It's exactly the same as here currently : a mod page, people read, check and download. Done

Some ads are shown on the page, those ads give money to the "content provider" aka the modder account, exactly like the youtube concept. (google adsense do this very well ^^)

The more popular is the mod (pages view, clicks), the more advertising is giving money to the modder.
No payment, no price for mod, no more difference for the end user.
free mods, and retribution for the "content maker" like everywhere else.

Phychosis wrote: Yeah won't happen, If they tried making a monthly subscription for people to use mods the game won't sell, I wouldn't buy it and a lot of others wouldn't. Mods is one of the reason I play these games if I had to buy a $60 game then pay monthly to keep the mods I play with in it no matter how low it is I would be paying them for the rest of my life as I still play mirrowind with mods in it after 12 years of owning it, as well as oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, and of course Skyrim. I still play all of them, now if fallout 4 had a monthly subscription and I did buy it do you think I would still play it 12 years later if when I went back to play it I couldn't use the mods I had in my save game. The company would lose money, lose fans, because we know how great the monthly subscription work for playing ESO and how many people kept playing it after they beat it.

UnitedStrafes wrote: It won't be optimal because I still won't pay for it, neither will the majority of anyone else. I don't need to be subscribing or being nickle and dimed by every game I buy, and I won't be, they can DO it sure, but they won't be seeing any of my money.

I just wouldn't buy or play that game....lotsa other games out there.

Grandsome wrote: I'll copy part of a post I did on the steam forum yesterday on how that thing could work:


"With that out of the way, I think it's time to bring back the era of the Demo. Either have a say XX hours of *game-play* (not that clock crap origin uses) to test the mod and see if it's okay. Or modders, that are now developers at this point, make a functioning un-crippled alternate lite/free [mandatory] version of their mod. This would also ensure that nobody is stealing anybody's work because during those XX hours a community curator/savy user would have access to the assets. The alternate lite version should also share all their assets with the paid version.

As for prices, valve should just copy the pay-what-you-want of Humble Bundle, with average paid price and all, and maybe a non-in-game related bonus if you pay more than average like a donation or something. (for #humblebragging)

To split the revenues, not lower than 33.3333333333333...% for the modder, you know, splitting the price equally in three for modder/dev/valve. I think that's the less offensive split they can make, but ideally, modders should get more, maybe relative to the size of the mod. And a possibility for modders to renegotiate any time, they should also have complete control over their *original* content, valve shouldn't have the right to retain a mod even if the author retired it.

For support, both the devs and valve should be part of the process, both get a cut it's also their responsibility. Partial refund (50%?) should be emitted with no question asked if a mod stops working after a game update or a major update from the author. Well, I said no question, I meant that if it is still broken after human support has failed. And if support is not given within the 48hrs of the demand then it should be an automatic refund. If it stops working soon after-purchase it should be in full (the grace period should be still at least >24hrs), no matter if the game or the mod just updated."

macintroll wrote: But WHY do you all want to pay mods ??? this was just done 2 days ago .. remember ?

"1) don't charge for mods- make the mods available via a MONTHLY SUBSCRIPTION SERVICE. "

You should be BANNED for even posting this.