Which Faction is Best?

[mdingman]

EDIT by LHammonds: Topic locked.

 

I'd go with legion. My problem was you didn't see enough of the good side of the legion and enough of the bad side of the ncr. The legion is portrayed as murderers preying on the innocent and the ncr is largely portrayed as the defenders of the innocent.

 

in reallity, the legion is a society that would provide better safety and justice(just talk to the trader in the fort and caesar), but they are willing to resort to any means to gain control. The ncr, on the other hand, treats conquered enemies kinder, but they just eventually exploit everyone around them.

 

Also, their society isn't nearly as safe, and they are very corrupt. My reason for believing they are corrupt is someone talks about all of the land in california is given to a few brahmin barons who have connections, while all of the farmers are kicked out. I can't remember exactly who told me this though....

Also, you just need to lock at the value of the ncr's money vs. to the legion's money. NCR money is $4 to 1 cap, while Legion money is worth 1 Denarius to 4 caps. Obviously the Legion has a much better economy.

 

Any of this can be found on Fallout Wiki and it has even more reasons why the Legion is better. So i guess i have a problem with how the Legion is presented as murderers with how they killed the powder gangers in Nipton, while the NCR is portrayed as defenders of the innocent with them fighting the powder gangers in Primm.

In reality, the Legion is the better society, but they take extreme measures, and the NCR is a corrupt, exploiting group who is more merciful in conquest.

 

To paraphrase (not quote) Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" If you aren't prepared to do what is necessary in war, don't go to war. The Legion is prepared to do what is necessary, evidenced by Nipton and Searchlight. NCR is not, evidenced by the very existence of the Powder Gangers, the destroyed caravans, the situation at Forlorn Hope, the fact that a band of raiders right next to their main base of operations hasn't been taken care of, and most blatantly by the fact that they STILL don't control New Vegas. I hate to break it to you House-supporters, but there is no way, even in their upgraded state, that securitrons can stand against either the NCR or the Legion.

 

On my Legion playthrough I was vilified by NCR, so upon entering the Strip, the MP's attacked me. When i killed THEM, the Securitrons started attacking me. I killed all of them with one shot each from a .44 Magnum. They really aren't that great. Even with the Securitron army activated and upgraded, they have nowhere near the numerical or combative strength to hold The Strip for more than a few days, let alone conquer all of New Vegas, no matter how weakened the factions are. They simply don't have the man, or in this case, robot, power. I guess that's another problem i have, that 2 of the game's main endings support the possibility of a small robot force gaining control of all of new vegas, while logically it is impossible for them to retain control of the Strip against an assualt from any of the major factions, even some of the minor factions like the Fiends or the Brotherhood of Steel.

 

My only problems with the legion:

Their methods are too brutal, but you have to admit they work, andi don't agree with how they treat women, but there's no telling how that may change seeing as how the Legion is a very new faction and will probably become a more civilian-centric faction in the future as they conquer more land, their lands are safe, and they treat people justly. If you are going to say that they aren't just since they enslave people, the Legion needs to keep the people that they conquer down until they fully become a part of the Legion, otherwise the conquered will spread dissent and non-Legion ideals until the well-being and entire identity of the Legion is jeapordized. Anyways, just ask around about the NCR to non-NCR people and they will tell you that when the NCR has jurisdiction over you, you become a slave in everything but name.

 

Sorry about the ramble, but i felt that really needed to be said after reading posts by countless UNINFORMED Legion-bashers.

 

If you disagree with this, please post why.

If you want another faction added to the poll just ask.

also, does someone have a link to a Caesar's Legion symbol picture that meets the requirements 4 it 2 be my picture? Less than or equal to 100 kb and less than or equal to 150 X 150 pixels?

Edited June 26, 2011 by LHammonds

[williamren]

I totally agree. I joined the legion on my first playthrough, but now on my second playthorugh I'm with the NCR, and they seem much worse. I don't uderstand all the hate for the legion.

[mdingman]

exactly they're clearly the best option 4 the wasteland actually tho, i sided w/ NCR the first time around (im from california and as a side note i've actually been to nipton, searchlight, and cottonwood cove, they're all real places and Nipton really is that small. Cottonwood cove is a lot bigger however) later i realized the legion was way better. so i just loaded an old save b4 goin in2 nipton and then killed every NCR in sight. I kiled every NCR soldier i saw in forlorn hope, camp McCarran(except the traitor), mojave outpost, camp golf, hoover dam, bitter springs, and the strip w/ only a silenced .22 u wud not believe the amount of bodies there were in this 1 stupid hallway in Hoover Dam all the stupid engineers all came down this 1 hallway. I noticed there was a glitch. Wen u use mr. sandman, another person can actually sleep on the bed with the body in it. also, som1 can wake up wen ur using mr. sandman on them and shoot u but then they die

[pob255]

Well put defense of the Legion, I've never liked the NCR even in fallout2, they are not nice, far from it, I think insidious would be a better word.

The standard tactic is to wait for some other faction/town to become weak or get into trouble (situations often helped along by spies) Then the NCR moves in with it's offers of help and slowly takes over.

 

And that's the big difference between the NCR and Legion, the legion's methods are quick and brutal, the NCR's methods are slow and insidious, the results are the same just the time scale differs.

 

Just because you kill any open decent that doesn't stop dissent just pushes it underground and strengthens the individual dissenters which is a bigger danger factor later down the line.

 

Also you have to realise that the current Legion is basically a cult of personalty dictatorship, it's lead by one man, when he dies someone else will replace him and be the new dictator, how long will it be when you have someone who's in power but no longer holds true to the original idea?

The faction is heavily based off the roman empire under the Caesars (remember rome started out as a republic, ie the NCR) great while you have a strong emperor like Julius Augustus or Vespasian, but eventually you get a Nero and it breaks down into various internal factions and personalities fighting for control.

As can be seen in all great dynasties and royal houses that hold power in history.

 

Saying you can kill the Securitrons in one shot means nothing as you can do the same with legionarys and NCR troopers.

Same goes for saying the Securitron army couldn't hold the area, as you never fully know how many there are or if there's also the machinery to make more, and the relatively small area of new vegas is an advantage here, while both the legion and NCR are far larger they also have larger territories to control so they cannot get their whole army in one place as they would leave the rest of their territory undefended.

Having a large army of robots in a small territory means means you can field a larger force at any one battle, also new robots can be built/repaired/rebuilt faster than new soldiers can be recruited and trained, it does require power which is why the dam is important, also it allows the use of weapons that would be fatal to humans but robots would be immune, such as poison gas or radiation.

 

If I had to pick between NCR, Legion or Mr House, I would go with Mr House simply because he's out to make New Vegas great not conquer the world and enforce his will on it.

Edited January 11, 2011 by pob255

[LtRhapthorn]

The Boomers. Although they may be a little.....weary of outside help, once you get in, you begin to realise that they have a stable society, with goals, power, food, land, and lots and lots of guns. The Artillery Shells, combined with Missle Launchers and other explosive weapons can put any fraction on their toes.

[mdingman]

@pob255 while what u said about dissent is usually true, the legion is pushing down dissenters in a manner which makes it so they lose all identity and are completely assimilated into legion culture.

As far as the dictatorship thing goes, what you said is also usually true. However, one visit to fallout wiki shows that Caesar has already assured that the Legion's ideals and beliefs will never die, and he already has a line of succesion full of hand-picked, devout believers in him. In other words, the Legion isn't going to lose it's identity or have poor leadership anytime soon. There are also no internal factions that would fight within the legion. But, that's a great idea for the next fallout.(Legion wins @ the dam and invades california, but @ the brink of final victory the legion is thrown into civil war, leaving the player to choose between the 2 factions or help ncr make a comeback, but that's just a suggestion) more to the point, the entire legion is actually very politically stable.

As far as how the securitrons go, it actually takes 2 and sometimes 3 shots from the same gun i used to kill NCR rangers(veterans) and Legion Centurions and Praetorians. And there are no "elite" securitrons, there are only normal securitrons. Also, there is no "Securitron Factory" the vault was only a storage facility, so House or Benny can't build more. And anyways, they don't have the numbers to hold more than the strip and maybe freeside and westside from an assualt by either legion or NCR for more than a few days. They simply don't have the numbers or the firepower, even in their upgraded state. They couldn't hold off the BoS b/c of their power armor or the boomers cause they would just blow up the strip. And mr. house himself is incrediblly vulnerable. All it takes is someone with a couple of stealthboys to get into the lucky 38 and kill house. you can't repair securitrons except with scavenged parts, which would mean that sfter a while of prolonged fighting you would have to rip apart some dead securitrons to repair others, which still decreases their numbers and overall effectiveness.

 

@LtRhapthorn The boomers are more viable than many factions, but to rule the wasteland they need to have numbers, logistics, and offensive firepower, the boomers have none of those. Although the boomers can withstand a prolonged attack on defense, what happened in WWI will happen there as well, numbers will win the battle, and NCR and Legion have those numbers. Also, they're running out of ammo for their howitzers, as the girl you give missiles to tells you. They can be a threat for a while, but eventually they're gonna be starved out or overrun.

[LtRhapthorn]

I can understand the logic behind your arguement, mdingman, however, the Boomers have a great strategic position, enough to offer a peace treaty with the NCR, or enough time to recruit/train, if a fight with the Legion was on the scales. I think massive cannons aimed at your main base and power supply, along with a Bomber capable of droping a vast array of explosives onto everything you love are great arguement points when forging a treaty :)

[mdingman]

Sure, they can hold out a while, and they certainly can negotiate a treaty, but this isn't just about military might. it's about which faction would be the best in all respects. also, who will the boomers recruit/train? where will they get more ammo? they are completely closed off from society and have no supply line. and anyways, without the player's help they would've never gotten that bomber. However, as you said a treaty would probably be in place and they would eventually be absorbed into the dominating faction. otherwise, the boomers would eventually be starved out, either with food, water, or ammo. Also, their power may run out seeing as how their solar arrays were already falling apart. Edited January 11, 2011 by mdingman

[Nihilisaurus]

either with food, water, or ammo.

They farm their own food, they have water sources in nellis, they've a stockpile of 200tyears worth of missile launcher ammo. TBH I wouldn't be too surprised if they outlasted the NCR... The Boomers are powerful, They have massive amounts of firepower, and a sustainable source of food,water and power. All they really need is knowledge of explosive manufacture and they're set.

 

The problem with the Legion is it'll only last for as long as Caesar does, sure it looks brilliant now with a stability, an army and safety. But this leaves no room for improvement. The legion is deliberately luddite, foregoing advanced tech. For a man who's read Hegel he sure hasn't read any Nietzsche! Danger on the streets, all that:

“-we believe that severity, violence, danger in the streets and in the heart, secrecy, stoicism, tempter’s art and devilery of every kind - that everything wicked, terrible, tyrannical, predatory and serpentine in man, serves as well for the elevation of the species as its opposites:- …and in any case we find ourselves here, both with our speech and our silence at the other extreme of all modern ideology and gregarious desirability…grateful even to distress and the vicissitudes of illness, because they always free us from some rule, and its ‘prejudice,’ grateful to the God, devil, sheep and worm in us; inquisitive to a fault, investigators to the point of cruelty…owing to an excess of ‘free will’.”

 

By removing the struggle, all Caesar has done is stall progress and make further conflict inevitable. There has to be conflict for there to be a way forward, be it a conflict with an enemy, a situation or an idea. By removing the conflict he's stopped the solution to the post-apocalyptic world, not found it. He almost fits Nietsche's ascending person, so closely that he might be a mockery of it, formed out of spite. He's read Philosophy, he has exerted his will, but the final hurdle got to him: morality. He sees things as 'wrong' instead of 'not the way I want'. Technology is 'wrong', the NCR is 'wrong'. He has points but they're all "reasons sought after the fact" to justify what are actually his opinions, and nothing more.

 

The Legion stops innovation, and for that it will crumble and fall like so many zealots before it.

 

Next week on Philosophy & Fallout: The NCR, democracy or dictatorship?

Edited January 11, 2011 by Lt Albrecht

[mdingman]

also, does any1 kno how 2 change ur profile name? i thot this name wud just b my login name.