Which Faction is Best?

[mdingman]

@ lt. albrecht (sorry if i spelled it wrong) the boomers, according to their quartermaster and their leader, are running low on supplies in general, especially in ammo, of which they have only a few years. (im thinking 5 years but im not sure). even if they know explosive manufacture, they're goin to have to mass produce ordinance to keep up with their needs, and they simply don't have the manpower do do anything except hid behind their howitzers. As for the B-29(i think its a b-52) it's only a matter of time b4 som problem arises and they can't use it anymore. As for the stability of the legion, reference post #6. Long story short, the legion is very stable. As for their disdain of tech, tech was what got the world nuked in the first place. Tech is what makes people soft! Caesar doesn't want a soft society. True, in it's current state, the Legion requires a conflict to be it's focus. However, with Caesar or one of his successors at the helm, (other than Lanius, who's more of a brute, they're all fiercly loyal and very bright people), the legion can probably easily demobilize and form a less military oriented society, just like the original Roman Empire did during the Pax Romana. I agree that Caesar is too black and white, but sometimes it takes someone like that to lead civilization back into the light.

[mdingman]

also, i don't think that the legion is perfect, i really don't, they're just a lot better than the rest of the factions out there

[pob255]

fallout wiki shows that Caesar has already assured that the Legion's ideals and beliefs will never die, and he already has a line of succesion full of hand-picked, devout believers in him.

No he hasn't he's done the very opposite, they are taking children away and teaching them them the new ways removing them from other ideas, all well and good.

However we already know that Legate Graham is not as good a general as him, yet he is Ceasrers successor and that while the majority of the Legion a re believers in him as the son of mars, there is a hand picked core who know the truth and it is that hand picked core who know the truth who will seek power for them selves and tare the Legion apart from within.

Also there's the big issue of conquering, again looking at the roman empire, it was at it's strongest when it was conquering and expanding, it's the war mentality and standing together against the enemy that keeps it together and focused, once the NCR is conquered he's planning to setup new vegas as a new rome, but changing a people who are devoted to war and conquest into a fixed nation without enemies to fight is a far harder task.

Every nation in history that relies on a single ruler who holds undisputed power has suffered bloody internal conflict as those near the top fight and assassinate each other to gain that absolute power.

 

The only way to go with a dictatorship is to go the Mr House root and make the dictator as close to immortal as possible so that absolute power remains fixed with one person, granted the moment that person is somehow killed the whole systems colapses, still mr house has lasted over 250years and is in no danger of dieing from natural causes any time soon.

 

Also very odd about the way Ceaser forgoes technology, that was a big key to the roman empires success and not just in military terms, many of the tribes allied them selves with rome and accepted becoming part of the empire for the non-military befits it brought.

 

This is not to say I think there's anything against the legion vs the other factions, the main thing I've got against them is that they are destroying more than creating, the NCR is really not any better as it's conquering in less violent means rather than building as well.

Which is why I'd rate Mr house over both as he's not out to make an empire and his long term goal is get man off earth and colonise other planets.

 

Actually the best faction is probably Marcus and the super mutants and the Bright Brotherhood (I've always liked ghouls) although they are a little too religious zelot

Edited January 11, 2011 by pob255

[marharth]

I am the only one who voted for followers? Seriously?

 

The followers are the only faction that's solely for peace and helping, and doesn't go around killing and capturing.

 

The followers should be bigger in the fallout universe, I know that the wastelands may f*** with you but seriously... I am sure more people would want to join a peaceful organization.

[mdingman]

@pob255 you obviously didn't read falloutwiki. Do that before you talk about the political stability of the Legion. Also, Legate Graham is the burned man, in FoNV, the Legate is Lanius

Caesar IS basically immortal in that the Legions ideals and culture will always be preserved and everyone in his line of succession will follow him and his ideals until death. This isn't your standard absolute monarchy. This one will actually work until somebody corrupts the system, which, if you read about the Legion in Fallout Wiki, isn't going to happen for a very, very long time. and who says the legion is going to stop at destroying the NCR? they might go east and take down the brotherhood or the commonwealth. Anyways, if they DO decide to halt their conquests for whatever reason, Caesar has a plan for a civilian Legion. The problem is most people only see the Legion through FoNV, where it is all military. they DO have a civilian side, evidenced by fallout wiki and the fact that their money is worth 800% more than NCR money. They HAVE cities, they control Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona. Do you honestly think that after they conquered those places they just left!? Anyways, Mr. house is far from immortal. I cannot tell you how easy it was to kill him. The terminals in the Lucky 38 werent even locked!!! someone with a couple of stealthboys can sneak right in, past the securitrons, and kill Mr. House. They don't even have 2 hav a weapon! Mr. House only seeks to capitalize on the people spending their money on the strip, unlike the Legion, who, after conquering an area and subjugating the people(although somewhat brutally), have the safest, fairest, and most healthy society of all of the factions. Just talk to the trader in the fort!!! However, it should be known that i don't agree with how they treat women, but that can be easily fixed.

 

@marharth the fact that the followers are solely for peace and helping alone should disqualify them for being the best faction! i don't know why i even put them in the poll! how could they possibly control ANYTHING AT ALL!!!! how could they stand against any attack!? i'll bet if those random thugs in freeside attacked the Mormon Fort, they would slaughter everyone inside!!!!!!!! The followers have NO CHANCE of surviving ANY attack in ANY capacity whatsoever!!! how is pacifism going to protect people in a place where people get killed just for BEING THERE!!!!!!! The followers are way too weak to do anything!!!!!!!

[mdingman]

also @ pob255 the bright brotherhood are a bunch of gullible dumba**es that follow a random ghoul that glows!!! how can they do anything!? they have no weapons, very few supplies(i kno because i took all of their stuff after they left) and they have no society!! they aren't even cult level people!!! when i said "intelligent answers only" this is what i was trying to avoid!!!!\

As far as the supermutants go, i killed everyone (except the mutant you help) in black mountain without breaking a sweat. And, as we found out from fallout 1(correct me if i'm wrong i think it was fallout 1 but maybe 2), the super mutants couldn't even defend their creator!!! how could they create a working, safe, just society when all the "old" supermutants that can think are already having civil strife between the nightkin and "dum dums", and the "new" supermutants in the Capitol Wasteland aren't even sentient!!!(with the exception of Fawkes and Uncle Leo). The supermutants shouldn't even be remotely considered as a viabe option.

[mdingman]

And the Legion DOES build, as i said, before u bash, look it up on Fallout Wiki Edited January 11, 2011 by mdingman

[mdingman]

Could you guys actually vote on the poll? that's kinda the point of it b/c mor than 4 people have commented on this forum Edited January 11, 2011 by mdingman

[pob255]

I have been reading fallout wiki

By seizing New Vegas Caesar felt that he would finally be able to elevate his Legion into a legitimate nation by giving it its own "Rome" - transforming them from a nomadic army into a true empire; a militaristic, patriarchal, imperialist, autocratic, culturally homogeneous empire whose ruler holds undisputed power

 

Yes I got the legate mixed up sorry, however the various speech and barter tests show that Lanius is not pre-paired for anything other than outright conquest by war

One Speech route will convince him that the vast territory of the NCR is its weakness and that the Legion will not be able to claim and hold it without highly weakening their presence at the East. Another Speech route will convince him that factions within Legion want him removed from power and he should take care of that matter first. The Barter route will convince him that the West is not self-sufficient and too dependant on the NCR and its supply caravans, so it would be difficult to maintain.

And remember that Caeser is dieing from a brain cancer.

 

On the subject of the devotion of the legion and the longevity of Caesar's ideals

Aside from military defeat, Caesar's greatest fear is being exposed as a fraud. Most members of the Legion, excluding some of the most trusted ones, are oblivious to the fact that the Legion's culture is based on books about ancient Rome - they believe that all of the customs enforced by Caesar were dictated to him by Mars himself. Those who claim otherwise are viewed as ultimate blasphemers.

So yes the rank and file believe Caesar is a near god and are very loyal and most of his trusted few are very loyal to him, very solid in the short term but a major issue in the long term because he is the focus not the ideas, they follow the ideas because he tells them too.

The legion is based on the strongest having power, not just physically but also mentally strongest (eg Legate Graham losing because he was lured into a trap and failed as a commander so punished) and the strongest will fight each other for power.

Another good example here from Lanius

Legate Lanius is very dedicated to the worship of Mars, the Roman god of war. His life is war and he lives only for battle.

If the player sides with the Legion and allows Caesar to die of his brain tumor, Lanius will become the new Caesar. He is far more brutal than Caesar, and handles several things differently than Caesar would if victorious. For example, he would have Arcade Gannon crucified rather than keeping him on-hand as a doctor, slaughter the people of the Strip upon arrival at the gates of Vegas, have Chief Hanlon crucified with the other NCR Rangers rather than granting him a swift death out of respect, exterminate the Followers of the Apocalypse rather than giving them safe passage out of the Mojave Wasteland, and pursue the Enclave remnants rather than recognizing it as a lost cause.

Caesar believes in conquering, defeating the NCR (which he sees as his Cathage) and then forming a empire by Pax Romana, but this isn't the way of Lanius.

 

Again if look at the history of rome we find that Pax Romana wasn't actually that successful, it did provent many bloody civial wars from taring the empire apart but it did not stop cival war and infighting esp at the top.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Romana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_emperors

 

On the other factions I mentioned, you've asked "Which Faction is Best?" not which is strongest or which is easiest for the player to wipe out.

 

If you want to ask "Which faction is most powerful?" then the answer is simple, which ever faction the player helps.

Edited January 12, 2011 by pob255

[mdingman]

Very true thank you for actually looking that stuff up. It's good to know that there's someone else who does their research out there. I should have put the question of this topic more clearly. Let's assume that the player assists the faction of his or her choice. then the question is, after they conquer the wasteland, which one would be the best all-around. And, if you support a minor faction, explain why that faction would do better and explain how they would do it. From now on if these debates go off from this, i will reference this post.

 

Now, Caesar's Legion isn't exactly nomadic. They control Denver, as is evidenced by Antony, they control Phoenix, evidenced by Aurelius of Phoenix, their capitol before they take the strip is Flagstaff, and, as evidenced by the trader in the fort, they control most of Colorado, Arizona, and New Mexico as well. Most of their population, however, is nomadic as most of their population is Legionaries.

 

If the player helps Caesar, he will be cured of his brain tumor, either by the Auto-Doc from the vault filled with ghouls (can't remember the name, 30-something, but you find the All-American there), or by the player buying a surgery kit and, with a high enough medical skill, performing the task themselves.

 

Now, it would not be that ground-shaking if the members of the Legion discovered that their society was based on ancient Rome because of the fact that the Romans claimed they were the sons of Mars, and you'd think that the people would want to emulate them. Possibly another reason that Caesar is keeping them in the dark is because he doesn't think that they are ready. Let's face it, while most of the higher-ups are extraordinarily bright(obviously excepting Lanius), and groomed by Caesar himself to be in his line of succession, the bulk of the Legion are people trained from birth to be warriors, so they aren't exactly intellectuals. However, I think we can all agree that it's very likely that after Caesar finishes of the NCR and either absorbs or destroys the remaining factions, he will establish the "New Rome", and move to a less military-oriented society where there will probably be more normal people, and they will be educated. Thus, they can handle the truth that the Legion is based off of the Roman Empire, and they probably will be able to accept that for the brilliance that it is. Let's face it, the Roman Empire was probably the most successful civilization in the history of mankind. They used napalm in warfare(It's called "Greek Fire" and it wasn't exactly napalm but it was very similar), and they have the answers to issues that we have today.(Probably the best way i've heard to handle illegal immigration, just look up the Roman Auxilia). Back to the point, Caesar's whole goal in this is to eliminate the NCR so he will be able to make the legion into a settled people more like the Romans. He's probably going to get rid of Lanius after he takes out the NCR because let's face it, Lanius is nothing but a stupid, knuckle-dragging, brute. Caesar would be an idiot to leave him there because of the threat he is to the Legion's ideals, and we all know that Caesar's not an idiot.

 

If you read the FalloutWiki article on the legion, i'm sure you read about Caesar's Priestesses. They alone will keep the ideals of the legion alive. And who knows? probably caesar has a son. He would be grooming him to be an heir and Lanius, and after he's gone, Lucius, are just temporary successors.

 

Also, i'm not saying that the Pax Romana was successful. I was just using it as a reference. However, it was successful until the Emperor Commodus, who was basically your typical college party guy.

 

The reason i like the Legion so much is because they emulate the Roman Empire, which i've always admired and I think that's pretty awesome. I also like them for the following reasons: They ban chems, and everyone who's not in denial knows that those do terrible things in real life, they don't just change your stats. they also don't use a lot of technology, which has a lot of benefits as in the wasteland there isn't too much technology and you're screwed if you depend on it (Mr. House and Benny). Also, They do what is neccessary in war. In my original post i paraphrased Sun Tzu, and how we should be prepared to do what is necessary. The destruction of Searchlight and the massacre of Nipton, not to mention the brutal treatment of prisoners and the enslavement of the conquered, are all needed to make things work. Whether they demoralize the enemy and make them lose their will to fight(which worked as evidenced by the NCR troops @ forlorn hope, and the quest: "Cold, Cold, Heart"), or the subjugation and assimilation of the conquered. I see too much of not doing what is necessary in war today. The Iraq and Afghanistan war are being run by politicians, not generals, as they should be. And, as everything run by politicians is, the war is ineffective and costing us tons of money. The problem is the international community getting mad because our airstrikes are killing civilians, and the politicians don't like bad press, so they put severe restrictions on our military. What are we supposed to do when the terrorists are using civilians as human shields and hiding in civilian homes!? And now people want to get out of there. It's like they forgot 9/11. sorry, a little bit of venting there. The Legion, as i see them, are the best hope for a stable wasteland. They have the numbers, the willpower, the firepower, the logistics, the training, the loyalty, and the leadership. Every other faction is lacking one or more of those.

 

I just want to point out as a side note that it was disgustingly easy to rid NCR of one of those essential elements. Killing Kimball was way too easy. I tried all of the ways, like sniping him from the tower, putting a bomb on the vertibird, reprogramming the antiaircraft gun, etc. i even put landmines on the steps and pickpocketed a grenade into his pants. My personal favorite was what I call the overkill method. I hid in the crowd, waited until he was about 2 feet away, and then pulled out an ANTI-MATERIAL rifle and blew his head off from point-blank range. Sniping someone with a .50 cal rifle from 2 feet away. Overkill. Awesome.