Which Faction is Best?

[FlankerDFR]

Interesting thread. Your defense, or advocacy if you will, of the Legion is essentially; "If you ignore all bad stuff, they're not that bad". So, what's a little crucifixion, slavery, brutality, sexism, and misogyny amongst citizens and slaves, eh? It's safe (unless you're a slave, female, or you don't march in lock step with their rigid socio/political dogma) and the traders like it.

 

Not a very good balance sheet in my book; then there's the lovely social exchanges between most legion and outsiders. "Stand aside profligate, or you'll feel the wrath of the Legion". Who wouldn't love interacting with a cultural attitude like that? It sure would be great to be a member of newly annexed Legion territory, when their mechanism for keeping things safe for traders; views you as a lessor form of life; assuming you haven't already been enslaved; rendering you an even lessor, lessor form of life. Yea, sure.........the in game presentation of the Legion is pretty much one dimensional...........and would have been better balanced by showing their lighter fluffier side; like sexually dominating their slaves; whether the slave is in the mood or not. OK.................that was a bad example! But, they do have a lighter fluffier side that's not well presented. Or..................not.

 

In the end, it's true neither the NCR, or Legion are perfect; if they were real. Both have significant societal drawbacks, and some saving graces. What I look for, mostly in real life, but likely valid in a game world too............is what system, despite it's imperfections, provides the most freedom, liberty, and opportunity for social advancement for the maximum number of it's members. It's not the Legion, Vlad the Impaler, Stahlinist USSR, or NAZI Germany.

 

Remember though, if you ignore all the bad stuff..............they're not that bad. :whistling:

[Nadimos]

the followers.

 

mr. house is of course amazing and i admire him in his own way, but yeah.

 

and the ncr? although they have power and protect poeple from the legion and i admire that, high up they seem way to familar with what we have in parts today, with all the diffrent forms of corruption goin on, aswell as the inflation and all, aka just print more money and throw it out the helicopter.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Nadimos

[Nohbodey]

I really like some of the posts that have been made for and against the Legion, so I'll weigh in on one of the better ones here:

 

First of all I have to bring up your point of the NCR being corrupt. It has usually been the more corrupt parties that have come out on top as it is inevitably one of the only ways to move yourself forward. Its just that the NCR does it more secretly. Also, the NCR being corrupt doesn't really matter as the Legion is just as corrupt, if not even more corrupt, than the NCR. Half of their nation is built upon lies of tribes joining them to fight with them, and being converted to slaves when the Legion no longer needs them, as evidenced by the Great Kahn quest. And I don't really get how the game makes the NCR out to be too good. It seemed like 90% of the people outside of the NCR were constantly insulting the NCR and wanting them to leave, it's just that they chose the NCR over the Legion.

 

I agree on the final point, but I can't see how the Legion is more or as corrupt. As far as I'm concerned, saying that something is corrupt isn't just a blanket term for "bad," but rather saying that a whole lot of outside powers have undue influence over it. For the NCR, you've got the Brahmin Barons, the trade Caravans, and the inefficient Senate. You don't really have the equivalent to that in the Legion. Caesar's orders are followed without question and enacted as soon as they're able to be enacted, without a trace of outside influence or dissent within the entire body. That's the strength of a dictatorship. The weakness of the dictatorship would be the fact that, eventually, Caesar is likely to become senile or have human error catch up to him, resulting in him making bad decisions. When this does happen, with everyone too afraid of his authority to tell him that he's wrong, and nobody to counteract or remove him, the Legion will suffer a great deal of damage.

 

Legion also seems to be very arrogant, and suffers some hubris, which has been the downfall of many civilizations due to them getting to confident. I don't think it would be their downfall at the time of Fallout NV, because they seem to be patient and taking their time enough with the NCR, but later down the line they would get to brutal, and end up poking at a group that they shouldn't have without analyzing them first.

 

First, every single faction vying for control of New Vegas and its surrounding territory suffers from a whole load of hubris. Mr. House is practically the definition of hubris, the NCR thinks it can take everything over without consequence and doesn't consider the long-term effects, and the Legion dogmatically follows a leader who is considered the son of a God and believe that the nuclear war happened so he could take over (I say the Legion, because I think Caesar as an educated person doesn't actually believe any of this). Second, we don't have any reason to think that there's a group that could even threaten the Legion other than the NCR or Mr. House. To just assume that there must be one, and then say that the Legion attacking them will be their downfall is a big stretch.

 

But my main problem with the Legion is that they shun technology and knowledge. Yes, using minimal technology would create a healthier, potentially more peaceful society, but that would only work in a world with no technology, not the fallout universe. There's too much pre-war technology, and new technology being developed at the time of fallout that someone will get, or has already got their hands on. And for the Legion to be considered any real threat to other empires, they need to throw away the bulls*** shun everything that is unknown theory, and start advancing themselves. This is clearly evident when Caesar asks you to destroy everything that is underneath the Weather building that is in the back of the fort, instead of at least finding out what exists beneath it. This ignorant way of thinking is very similar to how we were in the early middle ages, not the Roman times interestingly, and during those times famine and poverty occured.

 

Caesar's attitude toward technology is something I've discussed before on other boards, but I've got to say that I don't think it is what you think it is. Clearly, the Legion uses a whole lot of technology in their day-to-day existence: They built their Fort out of scrap metal using technology, they mass produce standardized weapons and armor using technology, they even print currency in the form of coins they had to have designed and pressed themselves. Caesar just wants to put limits on how far technology is ever allowed to progress, and if you think about this world's history (that of nuclear weapons wiping out most of the intelligent life on the planet), that may not be such a bad thing.

 

The reason for destroying everything in the Securitron vault is because he's afraid of what Mr. House has planned for whatever's down there. He isn't stupid: Caesar knows that House has a plan and that what's in the Vault has something to do with it. Instead of taking the risk that whatever he finds will have utility to House, Caesar decides that it should be destroyed. If you want to talk about a stupid decision in this part: Why didn't Caesar take any efforts to make sure that you'd done what he told you to do? Why not send a Centurion down with you, or take the chip once you left in order to take a look for yourself? This was a huge oversight that's very out of character for him.

 

To be honest, it would be really hard to tell which side would win as there are too many factors, but like another person said, dictatorships historically haven't worked well. They work great if the leader is smart and knows what he's doing, but down the line, there will ALWAYS be someone who will be incompetent at running the empire, unless they convert to another form of government.

 

This is definitely the case. However, I'm wary of arguments from history in this sense, because in those historical times there have always been certain factors present that don't exist in Fallout. As much as I'd like to agree with this, perhaps the nuclear war really did wipe the slate clean, causing chaos, and now a dictatorship is the only way to restore order.

 

Besides, realistically when you pit the NCR's way of fighting against the Legion, the NCR would win. Sorry, but guns always win against brute force. Sure, the Legion uses guns too, but they focus mostly on hand to hand and melee combat, which would be good for guerrilla tactics, but not charging in head on.

 

Their method is to go in waves: First the Recruit Legionaries, then the Prime Legionaries and Decani, then the Centurions and more experienced officers. Typically, only the Recruit Legionaries actually carry crude Machetes, and when the Centurions use melee weapons, they use Chainsaws and Thermic Lances along with heavy armor to still make them a threat. The reason that you see everyone training with melee weapons all the time, although they may actually use revolvers or other guns, is because the Legion wants a soldier ready to fight at all times, even without their guns. It also makes them considerably stronger training with melee weapons.

[Greymane]

I figure I might as well throw my two cents in here.

 

NCR

I have mixed feelings about the NCR, though I do think they're ultimately my preferred faction. One thing demonstrated through out the game is that though the upper echelons of power in the NCR tend to be corrupt and even incompetent, the regular citizens and soldiers of the NCR are basically good folks who believe in what they're doing. It's actually a little bit too slanted on that point I think. We never see individual NCR soldiers committing war crimes or even just blatantly distasteful acts, even though such things happen in ever war. Nor do we get too much in the way of jingoism or propaganda spewing, which you'd really expect to see a least a little of. Even so, on the whole it gives a strong impression of what the NCR is like. That despite it's corrupt leadership, there is still a great propensity for good within the NCR even if it's just on the individual level. Individuals in the NCR will even go against the mandates of their leaders, if their conciseness tells them it's the right thing to do. They have the freedom to do so, assumed if not by law. This is both a great strength and a great weakness for them, as it leaves them somewhat less unified and disciplined than you would see under other factions, yet also saves them from the sort of insane adherence to dogma that makes so many other factions in the Wasteland just seem like a collection of crazy people.

 

I do think that even with success at Hoover Dam, events in the Mojave are going to kick of what will be a swift burn out in their expansionist agenda. The great losses and massive cost of the war will pile heavily on the NCR. It's leaders will almost assuredly attempt to keep pushing onwards, which will only hurt them more. If they butt up against another rising power in the Wasteland like the Legion, they're more or less doomed to be forced back. They didn't really have the ability to even beat the Legion as it stood, they most certainly won't be able to take on a faction who are more comparable to them in terms of technology and equipment. The NCR is going to have to learn to consolidate it's holdings and it's a lesson it will unfortunately have to learn the hard way.

 

The Legion

In very sharp contrast to the NCR, the Legion seems to really have almost no room for individual good to take place, not even much place for initiative. Their actions are guided purely by their leadership. If the Caesar ordered them to build bridges, repair roads, and pet puppies, they would. If he told them to rape, pillage, and murderer, they'd to that too (which is pretty much what he tells them). The funny thing is that I can see their system working in the wasteland, if they were just somewhat less cartoonishly evil. A somewhat more benevolent dictatorship would have made for a much better opposition than this giant bag of mustache twirling goons we received. Ruthless by necessity, but not, as we seem to get, for the fun of it. It would have been wonderful to see the Legion building roads and bridges and leading relief efforts to desperate towns the over stretched NCR had all but abandoned. Instead we see nothing but rampant slaughter, needless duplicity, and a monstrous lack of basic human dignity.

 

My real issue with the Legion though is that it's going to end up eating itself. Once Caesar dies, and he will either through sickness or assassination, if the Legion is lucky a single charismatic successor will rise and hold them together for a while longer. If not, multiple warlords will spring up all vying for power and what was once a mighty empire will dissolve back into a fractured collection of rude tribesmen poking each other with sticks. Even if they're lucky enough to, the fact is that no one in the Legion is being taught the sort of values that can hold their empire together for long. In all likelihood, any leader who follows after Caesar will be every bit as ruthless as he was, but lack all understanding of why he was so ruthless. They will see the power of their position, not it's responsibility. Other factions are clearly rising powers and with the Legion's approach to dealing with other peoples, they're going to end up making enemies out of everyone. They're not Rome or the Mongols or any of your other tribes of world conquerors who rose from tribal roots. They have no visible edge over anyone else. Their tactics are ruthless, yet crude and ineffective against determined or clever opposition. Their equipment is plentiful, but primitive. Their only advantage at the moment is numbers, which they will lose the moment any event (most likely Caesar's death) fractures them.

 

Mr. House

House is a figure I have the most thoughts on. My main problem with Mr. House is his fixation on an independent New Vegas. The fact is that there isn't really any need for an independent New Vegas. Beyond House just wanting it, it serves no purpose and betters nothing about the Wasteland. At best an independent New Vegas would have the unenviable position as forming a buffer zone between the NCR and the Legion, yet as both nations are considerably more expansionary than New Vegas under Mr. House seems geared to be, it is only a matter of time before they simply spill around him or, in the event that something happens to give one a clear advantage in resources over the other, merely over his boarders. Not even considering the possibility of the spectacular like the NCR and the Legion being so disgruntled by Mr. House's actions at the Dam that they're willing to set aside differences long enough to work against him together.

 

An independent Vegas doesn't even better Mr. House's position, since he is still utterly reliant on NCR tourism and NCR money for his economy. His independence is purely semantic and the only thing his plan results in is having the NCR embittered by his actions at Hoover Dam. He virtually is a part of the NCR, whether he likes it or not, and will only become more so if the NCR's attempt to circulate currency in place of caps starts to take hold. Even considering that, his entire plan is predicated on the notion that NCR money will keep flowing into New Vegas after he assaults it's army and declares his independence. Mr. House seems to have failed to understand a very important thing. The NCR might occupy the same ground and might have been founded on the same principles as the United States, but it is not the United States. As appealing as the glitz and the glamor of Las Vegas might be, when push comes to shove the real reason so many people went there is because it was one of the extremely few places in the United States where you could gamble legally. This does not hold in the NCR. His actions at Hoover dam, which includes the murder of General Oliver (almost certain to be seen as a war hero back in California no matter how much of an incompetent twit he really was) and the numerous NCR soldiers, is absolutely going to have a negative impact with how the common NCR citizen views New Vegas. His plan is akin to Imperial Japan expecting Americans to vacation in Osaka in droves after Pearl Harbor. It's not going to happen. His main source of income is going to vanish. Where does he expect the resources for his space program to come from? It's not going to come from the Legion and it's certainly not going to come from the Wastelanders in the Mojave area, most of whom are barely scraping by selling salvage and gecko skins. More over, the NCR probably has the capability to build a rival casino-city, which it may well do if for no other reason than to keep it's citizens from going to New Vegas.

 

Despite a clearly shifting diorama of life in the Wasteland, Mr. House has dogmatically stuck to this dream. He has adapted his strategy, but not his master plan. His dreams of launching a space program probably could have already been initiated if he had chosen to work with the NCR instead of scheming against them. There is the further point that his bold vision for the future also seems utterly untenable with the resources he has on hand. New Vegas has virtually no industrial capability, not counting a single foundry occupied by insane robots and a soda bottling plant (also occupied by insane robots). There is no educational among the population not brought by outsiders. In fact, most of the population are, by his own design, gangsters and thugs.

 

Of course, this is all assuming these plans would have ever gotten off the ground to begin with. His fondness for snow globes more or less summarizes the problem with an independent New Vegas. It's ruled by a man whose one and only humanly pleasure is the sight of a tiny, unchanging world captured in a bubble. That, to me, seems like what New Vegas would become under Mr. House, if not what it already is; his attempt to merely recreate an over-idealized vision of what old Las Vegas was like and then to keep it that way forever.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Greymane

[Nohbodey]

I figure I might as well throw my two cents in here...

 

If you don't mind, I'll throw it back, though without making long quotations:

 

A couple of words on individual NCR soldiers committing crimes: Contreras, what happened to Mean Son-of-a-*censored*, Bitter Springs, and just a couple more examples of this.

 

On the point of individual good: I think you could easily say the same thing about any army. Especially with the Legion, both armies sincerely believe to be fighting for a greater good and to bring about peace and prosperity. NCR's leaders are quite inefficient, and actually don't allow much room for helping anyone except themselves, which you can see all around the wasteland with the strategy General Oliver has been undertaking. In this regard, they're no different from the Legion, just because of the simple fact that a military is usually run like a dictatorship. If someone of a higher rank tells you to do something, you listen to them, just like the NCR soldiers who slaughtered the Khans' sick and elderly at Bitter Springs.

 

About the Legion: I think you've got a few misconceptions here. To say that they're "mustache twirling" is just silly and wrong at even the most cursory examination of what Caesar actually says. His plan is essentially this: Take the NCR and combine with it, removing the flaws in each system in the process. The means he uses to achieve that are pretty terrible, but I'm actually convinced that his is one of the only systems that can possibly work in the Wasteland. I also think it's erroneous to say that Caesar's death will mean the end of the Legion. Since Caesar isn't an idiot, he's set up a clear succession of people who believe in and understand his ideals to rule in his place once he's gone. There isn't potential for anything like a "warlord" to take hold, since the Legion's strategy for eliminating tribes goes something like this: Kill the men, enslave the women, take the young and re-educate them. Within one generation, this obliterates tribal identities and makes only one tribe: the Legion. Keep in mind that they also believe their leader to be chosen by the Roman god Mars, and all of his policies to be divine mandate. There isn't much room for dissent in such a system, and it's been extremely effective in doing that so far, at least.

 

I also think that they do, in fact, have a significant advantage over anyone else that's currently in the wasteland. They've got a very extensive and effective spy network run by Vulpes Inculta that has actually gotten a hell of a lot done in the Mojave since they arrived: Camp Searchlight destroyed, Nipton razed to the ground, planning with the Omertas to overrun the Strip, planting a bomb in the NCR's monorail, having quite a lot of insight into NCR troop movements through spies, and a few other things if I'm not mistaken. They've also got soldiers who are effective not only in their number, but also their dedication and sheer physical abilities. They prefer to kill themselves rather than be captured, and they never flee (though oddly, they run from the player). The officers are also top-notch in both combat and direction judging by all the fights they've been in.

 

About Mr. House: Yeah, the whole "accord between Legion and NCR" thing... not going to happen. I think Mr. House's goals aren't very well laid out, and you're right to question whether or not they'd actually bring good results to him. Remember, though, that he's unbelievably good at calculations and projections for the future. If he plans to have a space program and advance the cause of humanity by becoming the nearly eternal dictator of New Vegas, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that he's probably worked most of it out already. It's certainly idealistic, and he shows just how full of himself he is when he makes claims like those that he does, but he's shown to be able to admit when he can't win.

 

Keep in mind, as well, that the entire purpose of wanting to keep President Kimball alive is so that he can be the one to take the fall for the disaster for the NCR that was its Mojave effort. That's the thing about a democracy, they'd just boot Kimball right out the door, possibly charging him for his gross incompetence, and then elect a new leader. Eventually, the NCR probably would end up opening trade back with the Mojave. Remember that the only reason they entered the wasteland in the first place was to improve their sinking, stagnating economy. Building a Vegas-like city is probably beyond them as it is, and would probably be the least of their concerns. I think you're seriously overestimating them in both morals and in capabilities here, since not only were they the ones who began scheming against House in order to annex Vegas, but the loss of the very Hoover Dam that provides them massive amounts of power and that they've dumped so many troopers into defending would serve as a severe crippling blow for their economy.

[Greymane]

If you don't mind, I'll throw it back, though without making long quotations:

 

Heh, ditto.

 

About NCR Crimes: Of the examples you listed of NCR soldiers, only Conteras necessarily conveys what I was trying to imply. Mean Son-of-Botch was tortured years ago by soldiers in the Hub. It wasn't anyone on the Mojave area and, more importantly, we never saw it happening nor the individuals involved. Bitter-Springs was an accident, to believe Boon or anyone else involved. It was an inexcusable event, but there was never the impression that the soldiers involves were gunning down civilians because they wanted to. Contreras kind of works, as he was selfishly abusing his authority for personal gain, though his crimes also weren't of the most shocking sort. My thoughts were more along the lines of modern day incidents like Guantanamo Bay. Even a soldier taking it upon himself to 'returning the favor' to Legionaries for torturing other troopers would have been something, but instead the worst we really see happening is a corrupt supply officer, another who is willing to allow a third party to smack a prisoner of war around, and a third who wants fellow troopers to collect ears off dead enemies. None of this is exactly 'horrors of war.'

 

On the point of individual good: I concede that point. I will only alter my previous statement to say that the NCR troopers in general, though far from universally, seem more inclined towards acts of individual good than the Legion. It may just be that we don't see enough of the Legion to tell, but the fact remains that we see NCR soldiers taking the initiative to try and help others from time to time (the relief effort in Freeside, the struggle to keep refugees safe in Bitter-Springs, the troopers at Searchlight maintaining their post to warn travelers away, ect...), where as when someone in the Legion takes initiative it's always to cause harm in some way. We never encounter the Explorer risking himself to escort people who want to join the Legion across hostile land, the Priestess whose taken up responsibility of caring for an orphaned child of a Dissolute an attempting to raise them in what she sees as the proper way, ect... We don't even get something obvious, like Carl in Red Rock arranging to have clean water sent to the Great Khans.

 

About the Legion: Caesar is not a mustache twirling, the Legion is. As Marcus points out, the Legion is following Caesar, not not his ideals. There is no particular indication that any of them even know what his ideals are. They're fighting for the glory of Caesar, not to unify the Wastelands. They're also doing something heinous in almost every event you encounter them in, hence coming off as nothing but a collection of Latin-spewing thugs. As for a "clear line of people" set up to succeed Caesar, there is no indication of that. Boone will make mention that Caesar was grooming an heir, but that's it. We don't see this heir nor how the Legion responds to him nor even how well he has taken to the lessons given to him. The idea that someone being intelligent meaning they've covered every contingency or possess great judgment of character is faulty. The game alone demonstrates that in the relationship between Mr. House and Benny, if not Mr. House and the Courier as well. What tends to happen to groups united behind a singular charismatic visionary is that once that person is dead, the group falls apart. This is, by all indication, what the Legion is. They are not united in an ideology, but out of fear and loyalty to one man. It takes extraordinary circumstances to hold such groups together. Mind you, I don't think the Legion would fall apart overnight without Caesar at the helm. As you say, it's system is set up in such a way that 'The Legion' is the only group identity most of them have left and the strength of it's army alone will keep it secure from outside threats until and unless that strength exhausts itself. The Legion is an organization that promotes on merit and Caesar earned his place with blood, while an heir may well be handed reigns of power and expected to earn them afterward. If the heir proves something less than Caesar was, it is not difficult to see loyalties shifting towards the more capable commanders who may surround him.

 

Also, I concede the point on their espionage and dedication being rather huge advantages. I hadn't given that enough consideration and you are right in those giving them an edge over many groups. If they were able to plant an agent into the NCR years before the two organizations ever came into conflict, they are clearly skilled in that area.

 

About Mr. House: Hence the whole "not counting the possibility of the spectacular" part, on a Legion/NCR accord. Anything is possible, but somethings have the odds stacked astronomically against them.

 

The problem with Mr. House and his calculations is what I tried to get at previously. House is extremely good with numbers and extremely bad with people. Amazing as they are, his calculations never seem to consider the human factor. Whatever plans he has worked out, the fact doesn't change that he's going to need to get the resources to accomplish them from somewhere other than New Vegas and the NCR, at the moment, is the only place they seem likely to come from. There is a great limit to just what Kimball could be blamed for. No one is going to blame him for Mr. House showing up on the eve of victory, killing their soldiers and commanding officer, and declaring independence. Or rather, they might blame him for putting them in a position to have that happen, but that doesn't mean they won't blame Mr. House too. The NCR had won at Hoover Dam in this ending and House had made absolutely no attempts at diplomacy following the New Vegas Treaty. There was no airing of grievances, no attempt to come to an agreement. Whether or not an agreement could have even been made with the current NCR leadership is going to be seen as irrelevant when he made no attempt to do so. Kimball will most certainly be thrown from office via the will of the people, but those same people would not be particularly inclined to go give their money to New Vegas anymore, no matter how neon the place was, after Mr. House committed an act such as that.

 

That lack of the human factor is what I see as the major flaw in Mr. House's plans. Not just on an individual level, but universal. I think he has an extremely fair estimation of his own abilities. The man is a genius who, with support, could jump start human technological progress. His problem is that he is completely out of touch with other people. He was even before he became a giant robobrain and after several decades is almost certainly more so. He doesn't understand them. They don't work the way he wants them to. If everyone obeyed the numbers, followed his calculations, I'm sure his plains would come to fruition just as he charted them out.

 

Also, I may have painted an inaccurate picture of my opinion of the NCR on the moral front. I'm well aware that they are an overwhelmingly corrupt government lead by incompetents. I'm well aware that they're just 'people,' not moral exemplars, but I prefer them because unlike most of the rest of the factions in the Wasteland, they are mostly presented as just people and not crazy people. As for their capabilities, I probably am overestimating them on that front.

[frank lee]

1st, what a great discussion, a round of applause to all contributors. Sorry I missed it but been busy.

 

I'm voting for the NCR, not because they are the best but the least bad. While I read the Wiki stuff and I congratulate the writers, it's fiction and though good fun, not particularly convincing. Like Pob, I perceive the Legion as existentially flawed. Its based on fiction, lies and a skewed idea of a historical society that wasn't that wonderful if you were a slave, a woman or German for instance.

 

The NCR on the other hand is also deeply flawed but the flaws are less crippling in the long run. The NCR permits dissent, We could have this discussion in NCR territory or be crucified for it in the Legion's. This is why the followers exist in NCR and not in the east, no? And that brings us to the NCR's real saving grace, it's a dynamic system. The most miserable excuse for a democracy has more going for it than a totalitarian state. Democracies can be won over or subverted from within and dictatorships usually just fall.

 

As there are so many fans of ancient Rome here let me make an analogy. Suppose the NCR was like the early Roman empire, corrupt and callous of its subjects, now imagine the Followers as early era Christians. So it took 300 years until the first Christian emperor but hey, job done and the Holy Roman Church was the nearest thing to a plus in the dark ages.

And that's why I vote for the NCR because while they are not exactly nurturing the Followers of the Apocalypse they are permitting them to grow and the followers are the only people I've met in FoNV that has a feasible long term outlook that doesn't end in serfdom or its idiot brother slavery.

 

Finally here's a test for fans of the Roman empire. Try to calculate which possession is worth more,

 

(1) A slave,

(2) A Woman,

(3) A German,

 

Now calculate again as if you were a female German slave . . .

Edited February 2, 2011 by frank lee

[burcet]

i think NCR is the best faction to side with,but my choice would be the legion if you could play the game after finishing the main quest..the problem is that the NCR has too many places under its control,and you will be shot on sight if you are their enemy...also i dont like the brutal measures of the legion,and it seems like they are easy prey considering that they over-rely on melee weapons..also,it looks like the NCR quests and side missions outnumber the legion quests&side missions 5 to 1..mccarran..forlorn hope...all that stuff...plus boone will quit following you if you work for the caesar

[silve21s]

i think NCR is the best faction to side with,but my choice would be the legion if you could play the game after finishing the main quest..the problem is that the NCR has too many places under its control,and you will be shot on sight if you are their enemy...

During my Mr. House/Yesman playthroughs, the NCR wasn't hositle to me. I don't remember if they were hostile during my legion playthrough.

 

also i dont like the brutal measures of the legion,

You not liking their methoods don't make them any less effective.

 

and it seems like they are easy prey considering that they over-rely on melee weapons.

On an open field battleground, it is a weakness sure, But in a closed envrioment like inside Hooever Dam, the Legion has the advantage.

 

 

also,it looks like the NCR quests and side missions outnumber the legion quests&side missions 5 to 1..mccarran..forlorn hope...all that stuff

The numbers are pretty even as far as i can tell.

 

plus boone will quit following you if you work for the caesar

If Boone is following he won't give you that chance

 

 

 

With all that aside, I support the Mr. House above all, I also like the idea of the Chairmen taking over New Vegas.

Edited February 4, 2011 by silve21s

[Nohbodey]

And back again, sorry it took so long...

 

NCR Crimes: I'm not sure most of this really matters. What I'm saying is that, when you've got people who don't follow a dogmatic authority they believe to be divine, you'll get a few that go against the ideals of the group for personal gain. Contreras is a good example of that, though I admit that it isn't as bad as what's done by Legionaries. I don't know why Mahsofabish doesn't count because we didn't see it, by the way. If you're looking for torturing of Legionaries, what about Lieutenant Boyd and the Centurion she captured? The NCR has rules against torturing POWs of any stripe, but she's only interested in those inasmuch as she'll get punished if she doesn't directly obey them. She doesn't care about the spirit of it, which is why she's willing to use you to brutally beat the guy. They seem to be just as prone to doing bad things as the Legionaries are, it's just that there's a de jure wall between them and doing that, which has to be circumvented through loopholes. Morally, this doesn't make them much better. It's not that I even necessarily blame them. War is a bad situation for anyone to find themselves in, and the frustration of their current situation would be extreme for anyone. Just think of it: They fall victim to Legion raiding parties left and right, the Frumentarii continuously engage guerrilla operations that throw their morale into the toilet, and they've got a horribly incompetent general who won't let them commit to any kind of attack.

 

I'd also like to raise the additional point, which may be a technicality but that I feel is important: The actions of Legionaries, however bad, aren't technically crimes. The NCR soldiers behold to an authority they've been taught is good, but disobey it for personal gain or satisfaction. The Legion soldiers perfectly obey the authority they've been taught is good and only work toward that good. I think that your later statements about NCR helping occasionally and the Legion hurting can be addressed simply by the fact that the NCR is holding (or trying to hold) territory, and thus has a reason to establish good will with the people, but the Legion are trying to loosen the grip of the NCR by instilling fear and disorder among the NCR, mostly with the spy and guerrilla tactics I mentioned. So, of course those on the offensive are doing harmful actions and those on the defensive are doing non-harmful actions.

 

Individual good: I think the point made by the Bitter Springs incident simply tells us that the average, rank-and-file NCR soldier is on no better footing morally than the average, rank-and-file Legionary. It tells us this because, when ordered, NCR soldiers are willing to slaughter entirely helpless noncombatants, just as Legionaries are. Granted, there's a distinction to be made because this isn't the NCR's overall strategy, and I'm perfectly willing to accept that it was an accident and the result of incompetence and miscommunication, but as far as the individual goes this is all I need to say the first statement.

 

About the bit about the Legion: I'm not necessarily sure that follows. In my view, the idea of being "mustache-twirling" would mean that everybody in the Legion was clearly evil, evil just because and not for hope of long-term good, and doing extremely heinous acts for nothing but the sheer sake of it. This isn't the case. The ideology it's based on (and this is my answer to essentially every point you've made here), is one of "Long-term stability at any cost." As far as succession: Caesar would need to make sure that he had an heir to succeed him and carry on his ideals. The "clear line" I mentioned is the simple structure now that would maintain the immediate stability. It goes: Caesar - Lanius - Lucius - Vulpes. On a more long-term scale, Caesar has created a framework that makes it certain that every new leader will be followed, because they're considered to be a lineage set down by Mars. You can also ensure that this new leader will be hand-picked and indoctrinated by the previous Caesar as very intelligent and competent.

 

Freak accidents may occur, and a ruler will occur that is so incompetent that he must be removed from power, but I don't think that this is much of a problem: So long as there is one Legion that needs one ruler, someone will fill that position. That kind of stability means that the Legion will never turn into the series of petty, bickering tribes that once made up the land that it has conquered.

 

About the spies: As far as I'm concerned, the issue of who is more competent militarily goes directly to the Legion without much possibility of question. The only thing that is anomalous as far as this goes is the NCR's Veteran Rangers, who are more competent by far than anyone in that army, and could easily hold their own against their equivalent in the Legion: a Centurion or Praetorian. The problem with the Rangers is that there aren't enough of them to make a difference on a grand scale. As far as warfare goes, while the NCR may be able to hold California, the Legion has got much more capability to expand and a much better method for handling conquered territory.

 

About Mr. House: Hence the whole "not counting the possibility of the spectacular" part, on a Legion/NCR accord. Anything is possible, but somethings have the odds stacked astronomically against them.

 

About House: I agree on the point about the human factor. It's a good insight and I wish I'd have thought of it myself. However, he does have some knowledge of how people tend to act: He knows instinctively when the Omertas are up to something, he is able to predict human behavior decently well in general, and this second point follows from his ability to predict nuclear war. He definitely doesn't seem to understand the occasional unpredictability of humans, oversimplifying things a lot, but he makes the horribly comical mistake that every single faction makes: The Courier, or some equivalent, is the linchpin of his plans. It makes sense, of course, as the game wouldn't work unless you were essential to the final phase. Ok, well it might work, but it'd certainly be really anti-climactic to just have it told to you that somebody won the Battle of Hoover Dam while you were nowhere near it.

 

Briefly about considering the spectacular: I don't think it's very fair to expect him to. He is very calculating, but anything that's as unreasonable as an accord between two factions that quite clearly hate each other just isn't worth calculating. It's kind of like saying that he hasn't planned for a hostile faction of aliens coming down to destroy him. When something's that outside the realm of possibility, why consider it? In the situation you're talking about, it's more likely that House and NCR overcome their differences to get rid of Caesar. He's the one who's most dangerous to House and the one who can't be reasoned with, bought, or intimidated.

 

When it comes to NCR, I think House isn't being unfair at all when he decides that he needs to screw them before they screw him, which they clearly plan to do. Moore orders you to kill Mr. House during "For the Republic, Part 2". This shows the central idea of the NCR: greed. They want, they take. This is one of the only times where they've been unprepared for someone as intelligent as Mr. House who managed to turn their annexation plan against them, essentially making them slaves to him instead of the other way around. Morally, they're on the same footing here, maybe even with an edge for House because he's reacting to an offensive action taken against him, it's just that Mr. House is the winner when it comes to this kind of political chess game. When you consider the events following the incident at Hoover Dam in a scenario in which House wins, I think it is pretty reasonable to suggest that NCR public opinion would go the way he thinks it will. Kimball would be viewed as a miserable failure who got them into an occupation they shouldn't have been in holding ground they couldn't hold, all the while scheming against House. Granted, we don't know how it would go, but it seems far more logical that, since the NCR is dwindling and stagnating as far as the economy goes, they will eventually resume trade and good relations out of necessity.