Who are the real terrorists?

[ginnyfizz]

True. No more problems. If Israel had free hands, they would nuke all Palestinians. No more Palestinians, problem solved.

Can you actually hear what you are saying? Try to turn it around and say, let´s give UN free hands to make a resolution on Israel, with no veto from US.

 

You do so much apologizing in the rest of that post, Balagor, but the quoted part is seriously unworthy of you. I have frequently heard Palestinians call for the total destruction of Israel, but not vice versa. I would be surprised if the Israelis did not have nukes, I'd be even more surprised if they used them. They have more sense. But they sure don't see the sense in passivity (and who can blame them, considering history...)and I'm glad they've got our back!

 

And a little more history...the UN actually already resolved to partition "Palestine" and revive the land of Israel...back in 1947. And it would be grotesque to suggest that every permanent member of the Security Council EXCEPT the US should have a veto on any Israel resolution. Way to make the US pack their bags and say "Get stuffed" to the UN...

 

@jim_uk - I could not have put it better!

[marharth]

Define what you think a "Traitor" is.

[SpellAndShield]

Are you American?

 

No. And I'm not speaking about the need to distrust a certain government, but about distrusting governments in general although I gave a specific example here (and it was not the USA and the US government, surely the US has a democratic political system for more than 20 years).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the US government is terrorist, or terrorists should not be fought where it is possible without harming civilians. However, I am of the opinion that the US policy concerning the Middle-East and the 'War on Terrorism' is short sighted and creates tensions in the long run that will be more detrimental to US interests and to the attitude towards the USA in the future than a strong message to Israel to conclude a peace agreement with the Palestinians, even at the cost of giving up certain territories.

 

By my definition, a terrorist is a person who launches indiscriminate attacks in order to sow the seeds of fear and achieve their objectives. Terrorism in itself is NOT justifiable... but limiting the treatment to the symptoms without addressing the root causes is an exercise in futility.

 

Ah, South African then I take it.

[RZ1029]

Define what you think a "Traitor" is.

One who betrays his or her own.

 

 

be·tray

   /bɪˈtreɪ/ Show Spelled[bih-trey] Show IPA

–verb (used with object)

1. to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.

2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.

3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

4. to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.

5. to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.

6. to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.

7. to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.

8. to seduce and desert.

 

 

In this particular instance, the italicized is more the definition I use.

 

EDIT:

Also, @ginnyfizz's post above:

And it's fairly well-known that the US supplies the majority of the troops for UN actions, pull those troops and there goes what little ability the UN had to enforce anything.

Edited January 26, 2011 by RZ1029

[marharth]

Define what you think a "Traitor" is.

One who betrays his or her own.

 

 

be·tray

   /bɪˈtreɪ/ Show Spelled[bih-trey] Show IPA

–verb (used with object)

1. to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.

2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.

3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

4. to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.

5. to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.

6. to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.

7. to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.

8. to seduce and desert.

 

 

In this particular instance, the italicized is more the definition I use.

 

EDIT:

Also, @ginnyfizz's post above:

And it's fairly well-known that the US supplies the majority of the troops for UN actions, pull those troops and there goes what little ability the UN had to enforce anything.

 

1. In no way do I agree with the people we are fighting.

2. I was born on a piece of land, I am not obligated to love it.

3. Same as 2.

4. I haven't betrayed a secret.

5. Nope.

6. I without question have concern.

7. Not trying to do that.

8. Nope.

 

By definition, I am not a traitor.

[ginnyfizz]

Also, @ginnyfizz's post above:

And it's fairly well-known that the US supplies the majority of the troops for UN actions, pull those troops and there goes what little ability the UN had to enforce anything. [/color]

 

Exactly, the UN would be hamstrung.

 

Marharth, you may well say that you were born on a piece of land but are not obligated (? obliged...)to love it. What sort of country would you love then? Are you really going to say that you would prefer to live in the sort of society that many of these people we are fighting would like to see?

[Kendo 2]

Being in the oil and natural gas business, I can dispell one myth foisted in this thread as FACT.

 

The Iran Plateau has substandard oil. The oil trapped in the tar sand of the Monterey Formation (under the Los Angeles Basin) is better quality. Their sorry sour crude can be heated in an expensive, laborious process and can be turned into a lower-grade oil, which in turn can be used to make petro products.

 

The Green River region of Colorado, Utah and Wyoming hold the equivalent of approximately 1.5 trillion to 1.8 trillion barrels of oil. That makes the oil reserves under the Iran Plateau literally a drop in the bucket.

 

So much for the wicked American Capitalist pigs lusting after Middle Eastern oil. Let the fundamentalists have the oil and the whole region. The only reason oil was ever pulled from the ground in the first place was the British needing the stuff prior to WW2.

[Aurielius]

I was born on a piece of land, I am not obligated to love it.

By definition, I am not a traitor.

 

I agree that you are not a traitor, ungrateful yes, living under the protection of honorable men and women who risk their lives so that you can exercise your right of free speech, safe and secure through no effort of your own. Fortunately the country does not require your services or abilities such as they are, you might want to look up the definition of 'civatas' something that must have eluded you during your education.

 

To the other posters:

This is individual is certainly not representative of the moral fiber of the country I assure you. The right to dissent and to vehemently disagree with policies of the government is an American tradition of which I throughly agree, but to take pride in a lack of patriotism is something that I can only pity.

[Balagor]

@ WizardOfAtlantis

I get your point :dry:

 

 

Somebody punches me, I'm gonna drop them on their back. Preventative measure so as to prevent a second attack which could prove fatal. I like my method better, it keeps me safe. My government is there to protect me, myself, and my countrymen. If the threat is domestic, they deal with it. If it is foreign, they eliminate it. I have no problem with that.

 

Fair? No. But life's not fair either, and in cases like that, you've just created a free-fire zone. The innocent ones flee and the rest are left to fight. Casualties of war will happen, but I've already expressed my opinion on that.

 

Again, read my history lessons and learn a little bit, it might surprise you.

 

 

History books are different from Europe and US I think. Not an insult, but an observation. You should try instead go to out and see the world. Try to learn some different cultures. I have a friend in israel for instance. I have been there on several occasions. I was even close to be a target for bomb in Tel-Aviv in 1994. I don´t need to read history books, since I am old enough to have seen it all with my own eyes.

I quoted your statements, wich I find rather hostile; not to me or this forum, but to the entire world. With such an attitude terrorism can only escalate. If you are a typical American citizen, I can only say; God have mercy on our souls. I am off this thread.

[ginnyfizz]

Indeed, Aurelius, I too find it pretty depressing that someone can have such a low opinion of their own country whilst still taking advantage of all that it has to offer. In Britain we have had some prize asses in Government (Tony, you know who you are...)but when push comes to shove I will defend my island, whatever the cost may be, as the great man said.

 

The point about oil is debatable - I certainly don't call it as a case of the Americans lusting after Middle Eastern oil as such, it's more complicated than that. It's not just Iranian oil, but most of the Middle Eastern supply, that the Iranians could disrupt by stunting in the Straits - if they were not being glared at from both sides. Now whereas the USA might not need Middle Eastern oil, it has allies that are heavily dependent on it. There is also the ironic fact that Iran actually has to IMPORT a lot of petrol/gasoline as it doesn't have the capacity as yet to refine enough for its needs. Thus it is more a case that the USA is helping keep the economies of allies afloat, and avoid the risk of a knock on effect on themselves, whilst implying a threat to Iran if they do not behave. And keeping an eye on what they are doing about the nuclear capacity that they (ie the Iranians) would love to acquire.

 

I can certainly live with that. I can also understand why the USA can get pissed at the way so many Europeans like to hurl anti-USA rhetoric and laud the real terrorists as if they are heroes.