"Proper" khajit and argonian bodyshapes/animations

[Semtex]

lidarian - you're right, of course, but the problem is not a skeleton itself - skeleton can be adjusted, either directly or through "dummy bones"

The problem is motion animation, which would have to be recreated - to movement corresponded to the new skeleton lineup, otherwise the movement will unusual, strange - or funny... And it's hard work.

Normal animation (green) has three major joints - hip, knee and instep.The main movement is based on the hip and knee, instep ranges little.

The leg according to your proposal (red) has four major joints. Animation for the leg then required to movement was based on at least three joints.

 

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9920/noha.jpg

 

Another problem is that - when the femur towards the front, the hull must be tilted forward too, because the balance - the focus must be above the sole, above point where the foot touches the ground. Otherwise its look strange.

This causes a problem with animation of the upper body - or must be adjusted skeleton for upper body, especially arms and neck and head.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Semtex

[lidarian]

i see what you mean....hmmm well this is a bit of a mind teaser on how it should work..btw is there a program that anyonne would suggest for modding, i'd like to try it out

[razorpony]

Lidarian,

 

The most common tools for modeling are Blender 3d and Nifskope. Blender is more 'in depth' but Nifskope is fairly simple to use and powerful in its own right. It's often simpler to use nifskope for simple texture path editing, while Blender can be used to create meshes to begin with. To create textures, you'll want something like GIMP. It's comparible to photoshop. All 3 of these programs are free to use which makes it a very low-cost hobby.

 

Razorpony

 

P.S. Off-topic: With an upcoming 3-day weekend (Memorial Day in the States) I hope to be doing some modding since I will be home quite a bit. Look for an update Monday or so.

 

Edit: I also just noticed the pic Semtex posted and I have to make a correction. There are already 4 bones in the vanilla leg: toe, foot, calf, thigh. They would just need to be moved around and scaled a bit. Everything he said about needing new animations is still true though. I'm not an animation guy so I went with simple meshes that work with the vanilla skeleton.

Edited May 25, 2011 by razorpony

[lidarian]

than you razorpony this will help a lot, also anyone know a mod, or a way to fix the horrid neck line that everyone experiences its rather anoyying and its bugging the crap outta me http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo135/WartBoy95/Oblivion2010-01-0614-17-36-74. its soo anoyying and many people have it, ive seen in razorponys screenshots he also has it anyone know a mod to fix this

[Semtex]

"Neck line" is old and unsolved problem.

I think the solution would not be too difficult. But it requires modification of the body a head mesh, and this is a highly sensitive matter.

Upper Body mesh in the neck region pulls up and create a real neck attached to the torso. Is it possible to follow the head model. From the head mesh will be neck removed (by cut or by "vertex normalization").

Body mesh will be coupled to head mesh like it's in Morrowind.

I am to prove them, it's a functional solution, but the final solution is needed master craftsman who can do the proper modeling and proper vertex weight. And they also needed a new, modified texture ...

Edited May 25, 2011 by Semtex

[MarkInMKUK]

The one really awkward problem with the head/neck line, from what I have read, is that the rendering engine actually doesn't use the same render settings for the head as the rest of the body parts. Even if you have a single colour, featureless texture overlayed, there is a slight mismatch to the renders. And when you add any more complex information to the texture such as colouring, shading, lumps and bumps or even (if really brave) shininess, then the disparity becomes more obvious.

 

Having said that, the high-res textures for the HGEC body make quite an improvement, and adding the Neck Seam Concealer mod (which adds a thin necklace just at the critical area) the effect can become considerably less noticeable.

 

Of course, if some clever person can prove that summary wrong, I (and hundreds of other fans) will give kudos galore to said clever person :)

Edited May 25, 2011 by MarkInMKUK

[Semtex]

Quick Test:

The neck is cut out from the head and stuck to the upper body. The neck has the same material and texture as the upper body.

Construction in Nifscope

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7632/neckproblem03.jpg

 

http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/7836/neckproblem02.jpg

Construction in the game

color neck and body agree, the vertex weight is corrupt and appeared a cleft between parts (result quick a dirty work) :whistling:

 

If it was correctly and accurately the vertex weight done, better solution is decrease the size of head (or only neck) - about 0.5% is enought (or similary increase the size of neck part of the upper body)

The head must have a neck at almost normal size, because many parts of clothing and armor has not a separate neck and uses neck attached to the head

Edited May 25, 2011 by Semtex

[Kiitan]

The one really awkward problem with the head/neck line, from what I have read, is that the rendering engine actually doesn't use the same render settings for the head as the rest of the body parts. Even if you have a single colour, featureless texture overlayed, there is a slight mismatch to the renders.

It tends to be mismatched because the NiMaterialProperty in the head is different to that of the body. It's named differently as well as having different properties, so the mismatch becomes even more apparent. Same goes for the ears, which are actually named "iron boots" if you can believe that. Renaming the NiMaterialProperty to "skin" and ensuring the head has the same settings as the body (or as close to it as possible) makes the seam far less noticeable.

[DrakeTheDragon]

In danger of derailing the thread yet further, but the next thing to fix then would by the EGT files. Those files contain the coloration information (in form of several different textures to blend into) for skin tint, lipstick, eye shadows, beard and the like. Can you imagine not even those match up at the neck border?! Plus something which could as well be an issue of the respective body mod only, but I noticed the neckline in the body texture layout of Robert's is round, a curve, while the head texture layout clearly ends with a straight line. How's that gonna match up ever?

 

I'm surprised you can use keyworded material name "skin" for heads also, but if it really doesn't break anything, as it does for everything else not one of the 5 body parts, then it's a really great find. The keyword in the name for the head meshes then will make it an actual 6th body part. Now I'm curious how many else there are which will work with material "skin" without causing issues due to the engine not knowing which skin texture setting of the race to use.

From what I found out the actual settings for material "skin" will be lost as soon as the game engine takes over. It's a controlled material and every setting in the NIF gets overridden ingame, so that'll be a perfect match for all body parts able to use it.

 

For the idea of seperating the neck from the head mesh, doesn't it cause trouble that the whole head mesh was morph controlled and only the neck part now isn't anymore? How does it work out in morphed situations so far? No gaps or clipping?

And most important of all, is the seam that much less noticeable where it is then than at the neck line? Technically speaking, by doing the cut at some place else you should only have "moved" the issue to some place else as well. But of course there are places where it'll be far less noticeable than at the neck line, that's why I'm interested in it.

Edited May 25, 2011 by DrakeTheDragon

[lidarian]

wow i think its my fault the topic got so outta hand :sweat: