Race

[ginnyfizz]

I have certainly been a victim of anti-redheadism myself (my hair is a lot redder than the personal pic on my profile suggests, and I have also been known to wear specs when not wearing my contacts. When I was a kid, I used to get beaten up quite regularly on both counts. The fact is that picking on individuals because they do not conform to perceived norms is, sadly, normal animal behaviour, and we humans have not evolved out of it yet. The vast majority of us thinking adults will rise up and condemn it, and do not want to see people suffer on grounds of race (or any other reasons).

[grannywils]

"I do not think it is helpful to throw around the terms moronic and bigoted, no-one here has advocated race hate or the supremacy of one race over another. The valid point being made by many of us is that the anti-discrimination industry is not only a gravy train for some, but is in danger of creating unfairness of its own and maybe a backlash too."

 

Ginny, you and I are friends, but I must address the above paragraph from an earlier post of yours. Although, perhaps the use of the terms may be offensive, unfortunately bigotry is alive and well throughout the world, and there are very few of us who do not know it. You have used the term "anti-discrimination industry", and I am fairly certain why. However, I shall play Devil's Advocate and take the other side of that coin. I have lived among many who have not been fortunate enough to have taken advantage of that "industry". They struggle along either in abject poverty with no benefits, or they work very hard at menial jobs, having received the poorest quality education available in the richest country in the world; this being based on the fact that they happen to live in areas where "those people" do not receive the same quality teachers and schools materials as some others. In addition I have worked in human resources departments in corporations and been specifically instructed "not" to hire blacks. Granted, this was a long time ago and was phrased in such a way as to let me make the interpretation for myself. I might also add, that I chose to ignore this directive. P.S. I did not last long in Human Resources.

 

Yes, there are many who take advantage of the system. I will not deny it. But they have grown up learning that is the way to "get over". This does not make it right. Does not justify it. Just explains it. More importantly, there are many more people out there who are being discriminated against because of those few who do take advantage. Hard working, good people who want nothing more than to be treated with decency and the respect that they deserve. And those who cry out that there is no racism or discrimination out there are simply turning a blind eye because either it is easier or it is too painful to watch.

 

I have not even addressed religious discrimination; but I think you probably get where I am coming from (sorry for the poor grammar). It is everywhere, and we all know it. You, yourself have suffered from it. Sometimes it is a bit more subtle.

 

I'm done for now.

 

 

 

 

 

[ginnyfizz]

I never said that bigotry did not exist, I said that it was not helpful to accuse people posting in this thread of bigotry, when what they had actually done is argue that the guilt trip/reparations/you will apologise/anti-discrimination scenario is doing more harm than good.

 

Just in case you had forgotten, I actually DO work with poor and underprivileged people, most of them white because that is the demographic in my area, and despite the fact that in this area the people's flag is most definitely deepest red, you would be wrong in thinking that they are left wing AND politically correct. In fact many of my customers, especially the males, are among the most openly racist and bigoted people I ever meet. And do you know why? THAT is the reaction against the anti-discrimination bandwagon - rightly or wrongly, they feel that they are going to be last in the queue for jobs. Their racism is also directed at East European migrant workers, not just against Asian and African-Caribbean people. Most disturbingly, the seriously nasty British National Party finds them a very fertile recruiting ground.

 

THAT is why I say that bashing people about the head with the sins of their fathers and being strident on the subject of race and discrimination can be positively dangerous, causing a violent reaction. And I believe, along with many experts from the race relations profession in my country, that constantly telling certain groups that they are victims, lowers their own and everyone else's expectations of them and perpetuates the cycle. Many of the highest academic and professional achievers in my country are from minority ethnic groups. Do not let us discourage anyone from aiming to be the best that they can be.

[crimsonedge11]

I think suggesting to a particular race or group that they are under privileged and need a "leg up" is racism because it is suggesting to that group that they are incapable and inferior. Even if the intentions seem good on the outside, its still racism. Which in turn motivates one group to blame another for their problems, because they are told throughout their lives that all of their hardships and problems are someone's elses fault. And instead of motivating themselves to do better, and try harder, they use other people as a cop out excuse for their own misfortunes.

 

If we are ever to move past racial problems, this must be addressed seriously. There is some discrimination going on, but I don't think its happening on a very large scale, and it will be impossible to be rid of it entirely. But what we can do is do the best we can to eliminate it, and it needs to be addressed on ALL fronts. Even if its not politically correct.

Edited March 12, 2011 by crimsonedge11

[grannywils]

Ginny and crimsonedge, thanks for your above posts. May I please just make one thing perfectly clear, just in case I didn't in my first post. Then I will go, so others may post. In no way am I suggesting "legs up" or giving preferential treatment to one group over another. What I am talking about is treating all peoples with common courtesy, decency and respect. Yes, sometimes people are needy enough to require help. And yes, those people come from all different backgrounds. That is not what I was discussing. I was discussing racism, and how it manifests itself. I was merely pointing out that it still exists, and in my opinion, it is insidious and we need to speak out against it if in fact we see it in action. At least that is what I feel I need to do. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[crimsonedge11]

Ginny and crimsonedge, thanks for your above posts. May I please just make one thing perfectly clear, just in case I didn't in my first post. Then I will go, so others may post. In no way am I suggesting "legs up" or giving preferential treatment to one group over another. What I am talking about is treating all peoples with common courtesy, decency and respect. Yes, sometimes people are needy enough to require help. And yes, those people come from all different backgrounds. That is not what I was discussing. I was discussing racism, and how it manifests itself. I was merely pointing out that it still exists, and in my opinion, it is insidious and we need to speak out against it if in fact we see it in action. At least that is what I feel I need to do. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

I am not saying you, but some people have tunnel vision when it comes to racism, and only see part of it and don't see the bigger picture. There is plenty of racism to go around, and it can come from people of all walks, races, religions, and political views, whether they realize it or not. And racism can also manifest in different forms, some being worse than others, but still racism nontheless.

[myrmaad]

Before you bother with the speck in my eye, be sure to dig the log out of your own. I think I'm the one seeing the bigger picture, so we definitely see things differently.

 

And yes it would be nice if everyone was treated with courtesy and fairness. I'm not talking about a "leg up", I'm talking about acknowledging they were winning the race for resources when they were pillaged by another group who co-opted race as a way to systematically subjugate a whole large group of people. And then turn around a few years later and say, how come you're not up here with us, and the Calvinist "you're poor because you deserve it, you didn't work hard enough" instead of the realistic, you're poor because my grandfather stole your assets, (and of course that's why I'm rich). And oh yeah, it may not have been your grandfather but your grandfather was in his club and benefited from the theft.

 

That's the big picture.

[crimsonedge11]

Before you bother with the speck in my eye, be sure to dig the log out of your own. I think I'm the one seeing the bigger picture, so we definitely see things differently.

 

And yes it would be nice if everyone was treated with courtesy and fairness. I'm not talking about a "leg up", I'm talking about acknowledging they were winning the race for resources when they were pillaged by another group who co-opted race as a way to systematically subjugate a whole large group of people. And then turn around a few years later and say, how come you're not up here with us, and the Calvinist "you're poor because you deserve it, you didn't work hard enough" instead of the realistic, you're poor because my grandfather stole your assets, (and of course that's why I'm rich). And oh yeah, it may not have been your grandfather but your grandfather was in his club and benefited from the theft.

 

That's the big picture.

 

Then it will never end as long as people continue to dwell on the past rather than the future. And for the record, I have many Irish ancestors who came to this country as "indentured servants", not the same as all out slavery, because they had some choice in the matter, but it was still an unjust practice. And I don't feel entitled in any way to the assets of the people who took advantage of my ancestors through this practice. Its all water under the bridge, and there is no changing the past. Some of my ancestors came into this country with not a lot more than your average slave came into this country with. And they made it work. And the Irish at one time were treated very poorly in the US, viewed with much prejudice and in some cases seen even lower than Blacks.

 

I also have some Cherokee Indian ancestors, who were treated even worse than Blacks, and actually did have wealth taken away (land), but I am not making any excuses for my shortcomings and blaming circumstances that happened 100+ years ago, its all water under the bridge.

 

You are just looking to throw blame around for past dealings that cannot be changed. I guess you are also one of these people who thinks one person should hand their wealth over to another because of something that happened 150 years ago. The fact is the slaves never had any wealth to be taken away to begin with, but that was not why slavery was wrong. It is wrong for one person to have ownership over another under any circumstances.

Edited March 14, 2011 by crimsonedge11

[myrmaad]

I'm exactly half Irish, dig it? And I am also part native american, so don't tell me how to feel, thanks.

 

"slaves never had any wealth to be taken away to begin with" <-------This is the most blatantly ignorant statement I've ever heard, seriously.

 

First of all Africa was so full of riches like gold, diamonds, a vast wealth of resources that was divided and characterized as "Cake". That's wealth that was stolen from slaves, and then on top of that their work/labor was stolen was from them. And that labor created a southern stock market and is the backbone of a huge amount of early US wealth, and was the reason for our civil war.

 

LOL what did I expect.

[crimsonedge11]

I'm exactly half Irish, dig it? And I am also part native american, so don't tell me how to feel, thanks.

 

"slaves never had any wealth to be taken away to begin with" <-------This is the most blatantly ignorant statement I've ever heard, seriously.

 

 

LOL what did I expect.

 

I never told you how to feel, I said I hold no personal grudges or feel no entitlements for occurrences 100+ years ago that happened to a great great grandfather, if I did, then it would be the epitome of ignorance.

 

 

 

Actually my statement is true, they came into this country with nothing but the shirts on their backs if they even had any clothes, they didn't bring diamonds, gold, etc with them. And in many cases the elders of the tribes they were in often sold them into slavery, so all the blame doesn't fall into one group. And we could go on and on and on about resources "stolen" from people during colonial times during conquests, and even conquests all throughout human history, where the same has been done by pretty much every civilization of any power that ever existed. Maybe Egypt should pay the Africans back for all the gold, diamonds, and labor they stole. How far exactly would you like to go back? 150 years? 500 years? 5000 years?

 

First of all Africa was so full of riches like gold, diamonds, a vast wealth of resources that was divided and characterized as "Cake". That's wealth that was stolen from slaves, and then on top of that their work/labor was stolen was from them. And that labor created a southern stock market and is the backbone of a huge amount of early US wealth, and was the reason for our civil war.

 

You say that Africa "was" full of resources? There are plenty of resources in Africa, gold, silver, diamond, oil, various types of gems not found anywhere else on Earth. Its just that the corrupt leaders and dictators control it all and the people benefit none from it. You aren't very well informed. Ask any geologist about how resource rich Africa is, and if there are any self proclaimed geologists here, better be willing to prove it.

Edited March 14, 2011 by crimsonedge11