Race

[ginnyfizz]

Oh Ginnyfizz I don't know if you recall but during the nineties the NME equated Welsh pride with fascism, ironic isn't it that the most neglected people of the UK get clobbered as soon as they get uppity and raise their heads above the parapet :biggrin:

 

No I didn't recall that, I find it extremely silly for such an equation to be made, though sadly not surprising. I do take your point entirely about this guilt tripping about the sins of the fathers, so to speak. It cannot go on forever. Draw a line and deal with the here and now. And yes, the whole discrimination gravy train can be a nice little earner for some.

[myrmaad]

The Persians stole from the Lydians, the Greeks stole from the Persians, the Romans stole from the Greeks, the Germanic and asian barbarians stole from the Romans. Wherever we look there are cultural artifacts which could only exist through those thefts. Should modern Greeks feel guilty for the desecration of the Achamaenid empire and the wholesale looting of incredible amounts of gold, silver etc? Where does guilt end, should the modern Greek state or the modern British state feel obliged to expiate the sins of people who are either long dead or in old age. People should be responsible for their own actions and take blame for what they do. If I had voted tory this time or New Labour last time then I would have some real responsibility for my government's actions.

 

 

This is my point and we should acknowledge it. No one here has advocated reparations, as if that could solve anything. But we should man up and acknowledge who were the winners and losers and what that means and stop pretending like we all made it on our own with no help, and definitely stop living in denial as if it makes no difference. That is unacceptable. and insulting.

[ginnyfizz]

I don't think anyone has advocated pretending anything either. Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. But this constant ramming of guilt down the throats of those who had nothing to do with the original offences does absolutely nothing to promote harmony between different cultures and, indeed, tends to polarize extremism. For example, I certainly know of no-one in my country who believes that trafficking in human beings is right, save the odious minority who are actually involved in illegally profiting from it in the present day. Illegally, note. Britain repented of her part in the slave trade and played a leading role in abolition. And yet such agitation was there during the celebration of the 200th anniversary of abolition, that it was seriously suggested that the cities of Liverpool and Bristol should apologise for their part in the trade. To what purpose? What exactly would that achieve, two hundred years down the line, apart from rousing the extremists on both sides?

[RZ1029]

I couldn't find the exact quote, but Sir Alec Guiness is reported to have said this (or something very similar to it) not long before his death:

 

Apparently, in this day, I must apologise for being male, white, and British.

 

I think that sums up the race issue very nicely.

 

Full quote, just because I think it deserves it, and is very relevant:

 

"We live in an age of apologies. Apologies, false or true, are expected from the descendants of empire builders, slave owners, persecutors of heretics and from men who, in our eyes, just got it all wrong. So, with the age of 85 coming up shortly, I want to make an apology. It appears I must apologize for being male, white and European."

- Alec Guinness (AKA The Original Obi-Wan Kenobi)

 

Yeah... I'm a Star Wars guy.

 

That being said, my opinion...

 

Well, someone's already mentioned the Morgan Freeman video, which I personally like. While I certainly don't look to Mr. Freeman as the end-all be-all for how someone should live, he makes sense sometimes.

 

On to the whole issue of reparations, 'guilt' and whatnot of all this nonsense. There's this one man in particular that I work with, who is black, and has a chip on his shoulder that apparently as a white man I owe him because my ancestors (who, by the way, didn't come to the US until the very end of the 1880s, from Germany) mistreated his ancestors by imprisoning them and making them slaves.

 

Now, there's another man I work with, also black, thinks he's an absolute moron. As he says 'What's in the past is past and we'd better not forget it, or we'll end up there again, but for the love of Pete, shut up.' The last bit I changed to censor some profanity and to remove references to his choice in religion. I'm a pretty simple guy, and this makes some great sense to me. I'm all for teaching about all histories, all religions, and making everyone aware and capable of understanding others.

 

So yeah... uhm... I was going somewhere with this, but I missed that train of thought when I noticed House was on.

*insert 5 minute time-lapse*

Remembered where I was going with that.

 

So, as it stands, I see a few ways we can fix this.

1) We just start shooting complainers.

-While this is the easiest method, and sometimes not a bad idea, it's kind of unethical to go around shooting people for being stupid. It's not a crime... yet.

2) Start teaching the whole story, and both sides of it, and teach people to make their own opinions.

-Most of the issues now stem from long-held prejudices that their great-great-grandpappy told his son, who told his son, who told his son, who told his daughter, who told her son to hate these people because you're better than them. At least, in the US, it does. I can't speak for other countries and such. I don't really know how to further expand on this point, I think it's kind of self-explanatory.

3) *Note: This one is not to be taken seriously. Relax.* We can just go back to slavery, human trafficking, segregation, Nazi-ism, et cetera, et cetera and then their opinion really doesn't matter and we'll be alright.

-Solves the problem pretty easily, though I think we'll hear some complaints from the lesser-halves, but that's irrelevant.

*end sick joke*

[crimsonedge11]

When I hear certain people screaming discrimination, and racism, it mostly falls on deaf ears. Because I feel like that card is being played too liberally, and is being used when they have absolutely no other argument to use to support their case, and they label all opposing views "racist". I don't think the term should be thrown out so blatantly and liberally, because it waters down the meaning of it, and it will start to appear like you are beating a dead horse every time you shout it.

 

And I don't think any race needs a "leg up", because we are all equal right? Wouldn't that be discrimination to everyone else if we give a "leg up" to people based on race? Shouldn't it be about poverty in general? And not about Race?

 

And I refuse to feel guilty over something my ancestors did, and will give no apologies. Some would have us attach "guilt" based on race, just because something my great, great, great grandparents generation may have done, to another persons great, great, great grandparents generation, which is a form of discrimination that is overlooked. And anyone feeling entitled to something because of what their ancestors may have suffered, must be insane.

Edited March 12, 2011 by crimsonedge11

[CrayolaColours]

I agree, I'm for equal rights, not glorifying the minority. I see ethnic groups as sort of like dog breeds. They're all dogs, and they all have their differences, but they're all just as good as one another. Equal but different works for me. And I really wouldn't want it any other way. It keeps things interesting. What kind of world would it be if we all looked the same and had the same culture?

 

What is sad is, if you say "black people are good at sports" no one says anything, unless they want to agree. But if you say "white people are good inventors" Everyone gets pissed off. Not every black man is good at sports, or necessarily bad at inventing. Not every white man sucks at sports, or is good at all at inventing. I say inventing, because I figure, if ethnicities have separate strengths, that would probably be European territory.

These stereotypes could also be cultural. Different ethnic groups seem to be raised to do separate things, which is sad, really.

Really, the only way we're going to move forward as a species is if we look past race. We'd be like a super race, combining everyone's strengths.

 

I'm not saying I know any of this for a fact, it's more or less my observations. I think about this kind of thing a lot when I'm bored.

 

Oh and one more thing. I don't think that everyone should be treated equally. I had a brother with Cerebral Palsy. He deserved special treatment.

So, which race are you comparing cerebral palsy to? I'm sorry about your brother, but we aren't talking about physical or mental illnesses. Every race is capable of standing on their own two feet.

 

If you got offended by this post, I really am sorry, and it's open for discussion, but it does sort of prove my point.

[myrmaad]

I'd personally be really embarrassed if I was moronic (and bigoted) as some of you sound.

 

RZ I'm not a star wars fan -- and I don't care at all for Alec Guinness, who to me is just another actor, and actors are entertaining but not particularly bright in general. (I give you Charlie Sheen.) -- but at least I can relate to your last few paragraphs.

 

Crayola, "I hope you don't get offended", but if you are actually capable of a critical thought you will understand my point. I had momentarily left the topic of race aside to address the fallacy that "everyone should be treated equally" in a just system.

 

If two children are in a race, and one of the children trips the other, and goes on to win the race, is that justice? I guess it depends on who saw it.

 

I'm here to say I see it.

[ginnyfizz]

I do not think it is helpful to throw around the terms moronic and bigoted, no-one here has advocated race hate or the supremacy of one race over another. The valid point being made by many of us is that the anti-discrimination industry is not only a gravy train for some, but is in danger of creating unfairness of its own and maybe a backlash too.

 

It creates the manifestly ludicrous situation that we have in the UK where (bit of British sarcasm coming) since the English, as we all know from movies like Braveheart, are blood soaked Saxon tyrants (despite the fact that many of us have as strong a dollop of Celt as any Irish, Scots or Welsh person)and are going to have their noses rubbed in that at every opportunity. And worse, we are STILL paying for the fact. English students are the only ones who have to pay full tuition fees at University and where NHS prescription charges are made. For example, Scottish universities will not charge Scottish students or students from other EU countries...except England.

[BlackBaron2]

myr, I agree.

 

The thing is, the amount of pigment you have and your facial features shouldn't be an issue generally. If someone's being a toerag to you because of it, then yes, they are in the wrong--just as if they're being an idiot to you because you're a redhead, wear glasses, or are of extreme height. People are different, but nobody is a special snowflake. (Pun about paleness not intended.)

[myrmaad]

Ok Ginny, I do see your point, it's the same one I agreed with when RZ expressed a version of it with examples.

 

However this statement is so blatantly racist that's is almost laughable that someone make it a serious contention, "What is sad is, if you say "black people are good at sports" no one says anything,"

We just had this conversation here when some talking head from Fox interviewed our president, and made a comment about him being a basketball guy, as if, because he's black he's supposed to be good at all sports. That is a stereotype and it is racist. Nobody may say something out of politeness, but I assure you we are all cringing inside.

 

 

myr, I agree.

 

The thing is, the amount of pigment you have and your facial features shouldn't be an issue generally. If someone's being a toerag to you because of it, then yes, they are in the wrong--just as if they're being an idiot to you because you're a redhead, wear glasses, or are of extreme height. People are different, but nobody is a special snowflake. (Pun about paleness not intended.)

 

 

And if they didn't have color, some would hate you because you're wearing red shoes. :unsure: oh no, you did not wear them :laugh: