NIFSKOPE question: Exploadable Objects..

[Necroflange]

iv recently made some meshes of a large propane tank and want to drop them in FO3 and make them explode like when you shoot the cars and trucks.

I made five "exploded parts" in blender, for when after the explosion happens, the pieces go flying, and use the "BSDamageStage"node to have the smoke and fire effect on them, same as the cars and other exploadables.

I chose "motorcycle01hulk" to paste to, there's five collision pieces in the nif.

For the past week iv been trying to copy and paste my objects over the motor bike hulk with little success. my problem, ( i think) is that i cant get the collision nodes (the little lines with squares on them) to center on my objects.. the result in game being: when the tank blows up, and the havok pieces go flying, their pivot points aren't centered, so they spin "lop-sided" through the air. spinning around an invisible center on the side of the object. and when it comes to a stop on the ground the center is under the ground and the object "bobs" on its end like a bobber in the water, with the smoke and fire under the ground.

 

 

( in this shot i only copy and pasted one of my objects, but as you can see the circled "node" is not centered on the object which i believe leads to the weird havok in game. And too, there's a little "X" next to the little square that im sure is not supposed to be there. i get this problem when ever i copy and paste something then move it.)

 

iv tried creating convex shapes in nifskope, and iv tried copy and pasting my convex collisions i made in blender, both with the same result.

so i tried to copy and paste the" BSDamageStages" to my custom meshes with little success again.

can some one tell me what im doing wrong?.. or tell me how to do this?.. or how to center the pivot points on the objects?.. or maybe point me in the right direction of a tutorial with the basic fundamental concept?..

I feel im right on the verge of figuring it out but i just cant get it. im not real hip to nifskope. i know very little, so any answer please break it down for a noob to wrap his head around. i really enjoy blendering and textureing and i would like to start using nifskope, im just now starting to understand what a powerful tool it can be.

thanx in advance for any help or info.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Necroflange

[prensa]

Necroflange - Hello!

I've not done much with the motorcycle01hulk, apart from have a look at it in relation to how the model works with damage stages.

The strange behaviour in game is probably due to the collision shape not being right for the new object.

"Copy Branch" & "Paste Branch" your new part into the MotorcycleFront Ninode.

Left click the new pasted in part, in the Block details where you see "Name" click on the Txt & locate:

MotorcycleFront:0

Select it & click OK so that the new part is called MotorcycleFront:0 to match the original part we're replacing.

Right click the original MotorcycleFront:0 NiTriStrip & Remove Branch.

You now have the new part in the model but with the incorrect collision shape.

Save the .nif.

Go to that saved .nif & open it so that you now have two instances of Nofskope open with the altered model.

In one instance of Nifskope right click on the newly added part & select - Havok - Create Convex Shape.

Up will pop a box with a "roundoff" number in it set by default to .250.

The higher this number the less performance hit you'll get from the collision mesh but the trade off will be a less precise shape.

The default figure often works so try it as is first.

Click OK & see if the new Convex Shape created looks right.

If the shape is way off or not even created then try again with a lower figure.

Once you've got the shape fitting, right click on the new Convex Shape & select - Block - Copy.

Now go back to the other Nifskope with your mesh in & right click on the old Convex Shape & select - Block - Paste Over.

The new Convex Shape should now have replaced the old & be form fitting to your new part.

Left click on the new collision to open it's Block details & check that it's material setting is what you want it to be. Material setting defaults to HAV_MAT_STONE when you create a new one.

The material setting dictates how the object reacts to contact in game, stone, organic, glass, etc..

The motorcycle was originally using HAV_MAT_ORGANIC_STAIRS which is really the sounds for a heavy metal object like car or motorcycle parts But you can set to whatever material suits.

The Collision that you're altering is actually attached to the MotorcycleFront Ninode rather than the MotorcycleFront:0 NiTriStrip which means if you want top move that part with it's collision you need to move the MotorcycleFront Ninode rather than just the MotorcycleFront:0 NiTriStrip.

You can move the MotorcycleFront Ninode to adjust the position of the part if you need to, the collision will move with the NiTriStrip perfectly.

"And too, there's a little "X" next to the little square that im sure is not supposed to be there"

The tiny multi coloured x is the center orientation of the collision, it should generally be within the center of the collision mesh that it belongs to.

"or how to center the pivot points on the objects?"

I don't think the Pivot point going to cause trouble in this case, it's very important in animated meshes or meshes that come under external animation (.kf's ) control.

Right clicking the NiTriStrip & selecting - Transform - Apply will center the pivot to the object, basically it locks the adjustments to position & scale set in the Transform data.

Not always desirable, only use if you're not getting the right results.

 

"i really enjoy blendering and textureing and i would like to start using nifskope, im just now starting to understand what a powerful tool it can be."

 

Yes Nifskope is a very excellent tool, capable of doing quite a lot of things. I think it's often overlooked just what it can do.

 

I actually learned to use Nifskope first then Blender, Blender defeated me for a long time. :)

 

Before Blender I was able to make quite a few models with only Nifskope (altering existing shapes to build new things).

I was able to make progressively more complex things with Nifskope.

The most complex model I ever built with just Nifskope was Jack Harper's rifle from the film Oblivion.

 

Looking inside vanilla models & seeing how they work & do what they do is a great way to learn.

 

Now I finally got my head around Blender I use it for model construction but knowledge of Nifskope is still needed for getting Blender exports into the game.

Hope this helps!

Prensa

[Necroflange]

HI Prensa..

 

thanx for the response..!!

 

and to tell you the truth i was hoping you were going to be the one to respond... :laugh:

 

I'v seen you post in several threads giving detailed information on different nifskope problems. reading some of those threads has really helped me out on this current project. for instance: i didn't know you could make collision meshes in nifskope.. and from now on i think im going to continue to make my collision meshes that way. i think this way is easier than doing it in blender, and you can set all the havok settings right there. although im not sure why you say in your tutorials to open two instances of nifskope and copy and past the collision objects?..

 

unfortunately, i wish i had posted earlier before your lengthy response, that i had figured out my problem.

 

"The tiny multi coloured x is the center orientation of the collision, it should generally be within the center of the collision mesh that it belongs to."

 

^^ that was my issue. the center or the pivot point was off in my objects. thus causing them to spin all "lop-sided" through the air when launched after the exsplosion.

 

The way i fixed it was: First i started pasteing to a new nif the "carhulk01", the objects in that particular nif seamed to be more centered from the start. after carefully copy and pasting and deleting some blocks i didn't need.. i got the idea to import the nif i was altering back in to Blender and re-center the objects that way. by doing...

 

Objects > Transform > Center New

 

it centered everything back up again properly, and i dropped them back in to the game and everything worked perfectly.. ( well.. aside form some experiments and tweeking). it took some time to adjust the Inertia.. Mass.. Havok material.. Layer and Layer copy.. but i ended up with a result im happy with. i just copy and pasted the inertia info from the "carhul0" nif and tweeked it a little as the size of my pieces dictated. Evey once in a while one of the pieces will do something weird like get stuck in the sky or something.. but its always the same piece and it doesn't do it to often...but im happy with it.. for now anyway.

 

I didn't have much luck in the past copy and pasting the "BSDamgeStage". but some how this morning when i tried it, i copied the whole branch (I think) and pasted it to the ninode of the object i wanted the fire effect on.. and BOOM it worked..!! i was super happy and proud of my success.

 

Now im thinking it doesn't really matter what nif i paste to, as long as im careful what im pasting over and careful not to delete something and foul the Nif up. In fact, next i think im gonna try to attach nodes straight on to my meshes i export out of Blender and see if I can make it happen that way without copy and pasting any thing but the "BSDamageStage".

 

so now all i have to do is build some more meshes. id like to get at least 3-4 different tanks and upload them as a modder's resource for the community.. shouldn't take to long.. iv got past the learning curve part.. for now anyway..

 

heres a pic i CAN post though.. this is my propane tank iv been blowing up all day..lol

 

once again sorry about not posting sooner.. but thanx for the detailed info.. im sure it will come in handy eventually. and i wish i could post some screenshots i have but iv never been able to figure out how to paste images in the response posts.. only the initial topic.

 

thaxn again..

 

NF

 

 

**EDIT

Im working on my second tank now and found that the bounding box (the blue, green and red box that is supposed to fit tightly around the object) is too big. i had this problem before with an other mesh but was able to fix it when i found that there were pieces of other objects i had unknowingly selected in Blender. That doesn't seem to be the case this time around and im at a loss as to how to shrink it down.. is it possible to scale down the bounding box in nifskope?. the static collision i have around the tank fits nice and tight but once i get it in to the geck as a static piece the bounding box is double the size it should be. i don't see anything in nifskkope except for my collision. this happens to me periodically and id like to find a long term fix for it. got any ideas?

 

thanx again..

 

N

 

***EDIT2

 

i opened up the tank nif in nifskope and under the "bhkRigidBody" tab i see "4 bhkMoppBvTreeShape

3 bhkPackedNiTriStripsShape

2 hkPackedNiTriStripsData"

 

iv not seen these "terms" before.. could have something to do with it? and how did these get

into my collison?

 

for shits and grins i tried to make a convex shape in nifskope. i used default settings (.250) and the collision appeared the same size as the bounding box in the geck..!!

 

***EDIT

 

ok i fixed it..im not sure how i did it.. i went into Blender and made a new collison. i think it was a combination between that and fiddleing with some settigs in the logics tab

Edited August 11, 2015 by Necroflange

[prensa]

Necroflange - Hello!

"I'v seen you post in several threads giving detailed information on different nifskope problems. reading some of those threads has really helped me out on this current project."

I'm really pleased they've been of use to you. :)

"unfortunately, i wish i had posted earlier before your lengthy response, that i had figured out my problem."

Just glad you sorted it out.

"I didn't have much luck in the past copy and pasting the "BSDamgeStage". but some how this morning when i tried it, i copied the whole branch (I think) and pasted it to the ninode of the object i wanted the fire effect on.. and BOOM it worked..!! i was super happy and proud of my success."

Sometimes when pasting bits between .nifs the String names can get changed, sometimes this can break the function of the block.

Always check the names of pasted Blocks & copy/paste over the old name if necessary.

" although im not sure why you say in your tutorials to open two instances of nifskope and copy and past the collision objects?.."

Force of habit, in some cases the newly created Convex Shape Collisions end up not connected how you'd like.
When you have an existing collision branch all ready set up & just want to replace the collision mesh shape with one that fits your new form it's safest to just Copy & Paste Over the mesh. That quarantees only the collision mesh is changed.

"heres a pic i CAN post though.. this is my propane tank iv been blowing up all day..lol"

Looks cool!

Good idea for some extra (explosive) set decoration. :)
Be neat around some of the existing campsites etc..

"i opened up the tank nif in nifskope and under the "bhkRigidBody" tab i see "4 bhkMoppBvTreeShape

3 bhkPackedNiTriStripsShape

2 hkPackedNiTriStripsData""

This is a more complex form of collision, basically a more accurately shaped to fit more complex objects when simple collision shapes won't do. It can only be created in a 3D program like Blender, unlike the simpler shapes like a BhkBoxShape or Convex Shapes.

" is it possible to scale down the bounding box in nifskope?."

If you mean a collision mesh then only if it's a simple shape like a BhkBoxShape, BhkSphereShape or BhkCapsuleShape.

All of those can be resized by adjusting their Dimensions found in their shape block for example a box collision will have a BhkBoxShape with "Dimensions" in it's Block Details. They will be X, Y & Z & will scale the box.

The "Minimum Size" is set to the lowest number of the three dimensions.

Convex Shapes can easily be remade as mentioned previously to fit new sized objects.

More complex collisions can't be scaled in Nifskope.

"the static collision i have around the tank fits nice and tight but once i get it in to the geck as a static piece the bounding box is double the size it should be. "

Sounds like GECK is seeing the model as bigger than it is, make sure that your new object has it's Radius updated if it's been resized in Nifskope.

In Nifskope left click the parts to open up their NiTriStrips, go down to the NiTriStripsDataBlock & left click it to bring up it's Block Details. Find "Radius", right click on the number there & select - Mesh - Update Center Radius.

If it was resized in Blender this will automatically have been taken care of.

If you've been altering sizes in Blender you may need to lock down the changes properly.
In Blender, right click a part of your model so it's highlighted.
Press A twice so everything is highlighted.
Press ctrl A select - Scale and Rotation to ObData.

Save your model.

Good luck with your Propane tank resource!

Prensa

[Necroflange]

hey Pernsa...

 

you are very knowledgeable and just packed full of great information..

 

 

If you've been altering sizes in Blender you may need to lock down the changes properly.
In Blender, right click a part of your model so it's highlighted.
Press A twice so everything is highlighted.
Press ctrl A select - Scale and Rotation to ObData.

 

i think this was what the problem was .. it was doing other weird things are far as the size of my objects.. i did the "Press ctrl A select - Scale and Rotation to ObData." and i think that is what fixed the problem...

 

This is a more complex form of collision, basically a more accurately shaped to fit more complex objects when simple collision shapes won't do. It can only be created in a 3D program like Blender, unlike the simpler shapes like a BhkBoxShape or Convex Shapes.

 

 

 

which fortifies my resolve to just build my objects in blender and do my collision in nifskope.. unless they are just immovable static..

 

i hate to pound you with questions but..

 

but i put my second tank in the game tonight and its doing something very wierd :

 

say i have four of the tanks set up in game.. when i go to shoot the the first one, the explosion happens, but none of the pieces react to the havock they just hang there as i arranged them in blender as though they are static.. although they are not static, i can run threw them as though there is no collision at all.. when i shoot the 2nd one.. the explosion happens and the pieces go flying just as they are supposed to and work great this goes the same for the rest of the tanks..

 

its all the same item..how can it have no collision one moment and have collision and havok the next?..

 

i tried tweeking the inertia settings but that didn't seem to do much..

then i thought it may be a glitch.. so i deleted the item in the geck > saved > and rebooted the geck and tried it again... with no luck.

 

is there maybe a setting someplace i have over looked?..

 

i guess my next step is just to just re-do the collisions.. cause there's no reason that I can see its should be doing this..

 

any thoughts?..

 

thanx..!!!!

 

NF

Edited August 12, 2015 by Necroflange

[prensa]

Necroflange - Hello!

"you are very knowledgeable and just packed full of great information.."

Thank-you kindly, though there's still plenty I don't know. :)

"i hate to pound you with questions but.."

No problem, happy to help if I can.

"its all the same item..how can it have no collision one moment and have collision and havok the next?.."

That is strange, they are all the exact same model?

You've not got the one with non moving pieces stuck within another objects collision have you?

 

Easy to place things in GECK within the collision of another object by accident.

"although they are not static, i can run threw them as though there is no collision at all.."

I did notice when answering your previous question & looking at the vanilla Motorcycle hulk model that it's using a kind Collision Layer I've never seen before. So it could be something to do with that.

"is there maybe a setting someplace i have over looked?.."

Collision type is controlled within the bhkRigidBody of the collision mesh.

It's set where it says "Layer" & again where it says "Layer Copy".

These are normally OL_STATIC for static items & OL_CLUTTER for moveable items.

OL_ANIM_STATIC is seen on animated collisions & I've occasionally seen OL_PROPS used on clutter items but never the settings on the motorcycle01hulk.nif.

Both the main part of the bike hulk & it's fragments have unusual settings.


I did notice in game that the bike hulk fragment can be picked up with the grab (z) key & moved but can be walked through.

It's possible the unusual setting is so the fragments are low impact as far as performance goes, since they are only intended for minimal interaction.

If you like you can post a link to the model & I can take a peak at it. Or you can pm me the link if you're worried about the model being downloaded before release.

 

I can't promise anything since, as I say, I've not seen this type of collision before.

Prensa

[Necroflange]

whats up Prensa?..

 

im sorry it took me so long to respond..

 

so i ended up fixing the problem in the above post...

 

 

is there maybe a setting someplace i have over looked?..

 

on the BKRidigdBody branch there are some settings called: Motion System..and Quality Type..

 

 

 

before when i was having the problem these were set to: MO_SYS_FIXED and MO_QUAL_FIXED..(resectivly). I switched them to MO_SYS_BOX and MO_QUAL_DEBRIS and they worked like a charm..

 

I experimented with the Deactivator Type and Solver Deactivation but didn't like how they made the havok act.. they were to light and "airy" as i recall, and one of them actually made the pieces just hang in the air.. so i changed them to what ever the carhulk01 settings are and they work perfectly..(aside for some minor tweeking).

 

things are moving along great though.. just been plugging away at making meshes and textures..should be able to get some stuff out soon for a play test..

 

thanx for all your help..!!

 

NF