Dwarves anyone?

[sullyvanj93]

I'm thinking of adding a bit of diversity to my next mod's NPCs, and was thinking the other day how it's odd that dwarves just vanished from the american southwest. Did radiation stop being a factor? Did the NCR kill them off in some racial genocide? Are they not welcome in New Vegas due to Mr House's unmentioned biasedness?

 

None of these theories really did it for me. I think the main reason we don't have them anymore is the same reason there's only one body-type in New Vegas. It'd be too much work and not enough reward for the developers to make it so.

 

Well I think it'd add a lot to the game, bringing back that race. I was hoping someone with pretty good mesh skills might be willing to indulge the community by making a modders resource Dwarf body type. I mean anyone can simply make an NPC shorter, but to change the body type to match the ones found in previous games (or other creatures found in fantasy films, etc) is a bit more of a challenge.

 

I would peg the dwarves at a little less than 4 feet tall, but have a stockier build than most humans. I'm unsure if the geck's head and face system would match up correctly, or if they'd look a bit... pin-headed. But I'm sure we could play around and get something to work.

 

The resource could be a great tool for modders to use. Adding dwarves to the Crimson Caravan company would be extremely lore friendly, and open up a bunch of possibilities for new content.

 

Well if anyone has the ability and interest to tackle this request, please let me know. I think it'd be great to have these little guys back in the game. Or maybe my idea falls a bit short...

 

Sorry. I'm sorry.

Edited August 20, 2015 by sullyvanj93

[Moraelin]

You can't change the "width" of a race in the GECK, or not without providing a whole different mesh for it. The only thing you can do is scale it the same on all 3 directions.

 

The bigger problem is: clothing. Essentially they'd need special dwarf clothes that fit the broader body shape. You put a normal outfit on one of them, they become thin.

 

Far as I know, the game has no real support for using different meshes based on race, so you can't have an outfit that would look right on both a normal human and a dwarf.

 

So, yeah, it would be a pain in the rear.

[devinpatterson]

Yeah I like the idea of dwarfs. I wanted to do a high tec society (at least cyberpunk level) that had regressed to dark ages technology after a cataclysmic event. The hook was that it would be essentially a fantasy setting, but actually powered by real tech (nanotech, genetic manipulation etc.) that was now perceived as magic (at least by some of the inhabitants). It's a bit of Clark's "any significantly advanced technology" quote at it's heart. The astral plane is the matrix, wizards are actually technomancers, the arcane language is advanced mathematics, cosmetic genetics (cat eyes anyone?), elders/elves are the super rich (before the fall) with all the latest and greatest designer genes (including life prolonging, high intelligence etc), , A non lore-Sci-fi, gamma world, fantasy-ish mashup.

 

In this scenario dwarfs are descendants of colonists that were genetically engineered to thrive on a high gravity planet (superior skeletal/musculature/vascular systems for the increased load on the body, resulting in greater strength and lifespan on earth), with a genetic propensity for excellent spatial, technical & problem solving skills (colonizing a new world isn't easy). Fun story line to think about, on to fallout dwarfs (ie mutants).

 

When I learned the earlier fallout games had dwarves I really wanted to create them.

 

A few points;

 

A custom race can provide for alternate meshes. This is how some players create custom body types for just the player (say type 3) without changing all NPCs (ie a replacer) it's also how ghouls (civilized, not feral) do the same (with their decaying forms). I havn't personally done it, so my knowledge on the subject is weak.

 

You can scale the meshes in the X dimension without too much trouble (I'v done it on some custom meshes, see here for an example pic), to make them broader, if you don't get too carried away with it (too much and you'll see some serious distortions during animations). You do have a few caveats (for example the wrists need to line up exactly to their old spots), and then setScale to make them a bit shorter (this will also make all their items, like weapons a bit smaller too, but probably isn't very noticeable). You'd probably want to scale the hands/gloves as well, since I picture dwarfs having sort of hamfists. And the faces will need special attention to really complete the effect.

 

As Moraelin mentioned, you do have to redo the meshes for all outfits/armor (at least all the ones you think a dwarf could wear.....something like power armor could simply be prevented from being equipped by script). So that is a lot of work if your talking about a PC. If it's just for a NPC, you might only have to do one outfit. If I get a chance though I'll try to whip up one or two, I'll have to check out some of the custom race tutorials.

 

I'v always wondered about egms for the body. If we had a upperbody.tri to feed in for a program like conformulator, could it create a egm for a outfit, so that several body types would be supported by that one mesh? I'm 99.9% sure it wouldn't or the community would have already jumped on it. But maybe someone more skilled/knowledgeable in the area could explain to me why it's a dead end (adding to my meager mental data base).

[Moraelin]

Nope. Your race can have a different body, but once you put on an outfit for a different body mesh, you get the parts of the body mesh from that outfit. You put on a bikini made for the pornstar body, and your boobs just instantly grow.

 

You have to also bear in mind that most of the Beth and Obsidian outfits don't actually have a complete body under them, as you may already know from playing with outfits in Blender. E.g., the female version of Kimball's outfit only has the legs from the thighs down, and only the top of the feet. E.g., the merc charmer outfit only has a little bit of the chest and some pieces of the legs that were under the holes in the stockings. It's not even the complete legs.

 

Most of those outfits don't even fit very well over a complete body, even over the bog-standard Beth body. You try to actually put a complete body under them, and you might get boobs poking through the jacket, or a butt poking through the skirt.

 

Beth and Obsidian basically did a MUCH more approximate job of fitting outfits to the body than modders do. Precisely because the body under it will never be replaced.

 

What ghouls have is really just a different texture. Which is really all that those outfits copy for the visible parts in their mesh.

[devinpatterson]

Nope. Your race can have a different body, but once you put on an outfit for a different body mesh, you get the parts of the body mesh from that outfit. You put on a bikini made for the pornstar body, and your boobs just instantly grow.

Yep, already addressed that brother, my qoute;

 

A custom race can provide for alternate meshes. This is how some players create custom body types for just the player (say type 3) without changing all NPCs (ie a replacer) it's also how ghouls (civilized, not feral) do the same (with their decaying forms). I havn't personally done it, so my knowledge on the subject is weak.

&

 

As Moraelin mentioned, you do have to redo the meshes for all outfits/armor (at least all the ones you think a dwarf could wear.....something like power armor could simply be prevented from being equipped by script). So that is a lot of work if your talking about a PC. If it's just for a NPC, you might only have to do one outfit. If I get a chance though I'll try to whip up one or two, I'll have to check out some of the custom race tutorials.

You can select textures and meshes on a per custom race basis, skeletons cannot be altered (as Fallout2AM informed me). Look under race and you can see the selection boxes. This is for your "birthday suit" only, and I went through the outfits/armor's in my quote above, dont' know how you missed it :confused:

 

 

[devinpatterson]

We also have a getRace function (as well as NVSE functions for getRaceEyes, getRaceHairs etc) that can be used to swap out meshes if you need to. In this way it can be done automatically depending on the return value of getRace. But the biggie is making the meshes for each outfit/armor :(

[Moraelin]

You HAVE addressed it, but unless I'm reading it wrong, it's exactly what I'm saying is... not very useful here. As soon as you put an outfit on, the body mesh used will be what's in the outfit mesh, not what you declared in the race. And declaring that mesh is not how non-feral ghouls can wear normal outfits. Ghouls just use a normal body with a funky normal map.

 

And in the outfits themselves you have no race choice either. Well, not in FO3 and NV. You just just have male and female meshes, and that's it.

 

What modders do with adapting outfits to body type is providing clothes specifically for that body type. So you can have clothes for, say, the Alice body or the female bodybuilder body, and if you want it to be non-replacer, well, you just have to be very conscious about what you wear. You put an Alice merc outfit on a female bodybuilder body and *whoosh* her muscles disappear. You put the later on a skinny body, and *bam* she ain't skinny no mo'.

 

With NVSE, well, I ain't the expert there, but I haven't seen a function to swap meshes. I suppose you could check the equipped gear, remove the whole outfit, give the guy an equivalent dwarf outfit, and force an equip. Not sure how immersive would that message in the top left about removing items and adding items would be, though, but I guess it's better than nothing.

[devinpatterson]

You HAVE addressed it, but unless I'm reading it wrong, it's exactly what I'm saying is... not very useful here.

You need it as the base/nude model for a custom race. From teh Custom races tutorial

 

"I assume at one point in your gaming history you used a custom body like Robert's Male body, Breeze's Male Body, Type 3, Type V female body or BlackBlossom's excelelnt body replacer. The problem with body replacers is that once you use them all NPCs in the game will use that custom body - there goes your attempt at achieveing individuality. The only solution is - as you may have guess it - to sue a custom race with it's own body mesh and body textures."

 

It's one part of the equation if the OP is interested in a playable race, and it is necessary. If it's just for a NPC dwarf it could be s/he could be wearing only one armor/outfit and is unlikely to be nude (although one should do it anyway in case s/he is killed and his/her outfit taken leaving the dwarf nude), but then you don't have to worry about converting any other outfits/armor either.

 

And declaring that mesh is not how non-feral ghouls can wear normal outfits. Ghouls just use a normal body with a funky normal map.

I didn't say mesh, I was referring to the textures, it's part of the body type. My quote;

 

This is how some players create custom body types for just the player (say type 3) without changing all NPCs (ie a replacer) it's also how ghouls (civilized, not feral) do the same (with their decaying forms).

As I mentioned both textures and meshes are selectable from the race form.

 

As soon as you put an outfit on, the body mesh used will be what's in the outfit mesh, not what you declared in the race.

Nor have I disagreed, I stated the same;

 

As Moraelin mentioned, you do have to redo the meshes for all outfits/armor (at least all the ones you think a dwarf could wear.....something like power armor could simply be prevented from being equipped by script). So that is a lot of work if your talking about a PC. If it's just for a NPC, you might only have to do one outfit.

<shrug>

 

and I have stated the same in various other posts on the forum.

 

What modders do with adapting outfits to body type is providing clothes specifically for that body type.

Yep, that's why I stated;

 

you do have to redo the meshes for all outfits/armor

<shrug> no confusion over here, not sure why you think I'm disagreeing with you when I *explicitly* stated new meshes for each outfit/armor for the body type. I'm well aware of this, I'v done more than a few (mostly type 3). You can see a few of them right here in the forum.

 

With NVSE, well, I ain't the expert there, but I haven't seen a function to swap meshes. I suppose you could check the equipped gear, remove the whole outfit, give the guy an equivalent dwarf outfit, and force an equip. Not sure how immersive would that message in the top left about removing items and adding items would be, though, but I guess it's better than nothing.

Yeah there is setBipedModelPath, setBipedModelList etc. But I was talking about a more simplistic approach that simply swaps out the armor for the modified one based on teh return value of the getRace function.

 

You all right tonight brother? You seem kind of combative/angry and your responding to arguments I simply didn't make.

[Moraelin]

All I'm saying is that whatever mesh you put in the race form will be used only when you're naked :tongue:

 

Edit: And nah, I'm not Snow White. I'm not getting angry about dwarves. ;)

[devinpatterson]

All I'm saying is that whatever mesh you put in the race form will be used only when you're naked :tongue:

Yep, for sure (it's why I mentioned & agreed about making new outfits/armor for each vanilla outfit/armor), we are on the same page here. But it's an important part (the custom race) of the whole for a PC. It's important not just for the mesh while nude, but for the getRace function to work, and if there are other unique physical characteristics like eyes, hair etc. The use case for a NPC will probably require it too (unless s/he is essential and can never be stripped of his/her outfit/armor).

 

Edit: And nah, I'm not Snow White. I'm not getting angry about dwarves. :wink:

Cool, good to know.....it's not always easy to determine inflection etc from the written word.

 

So moving back to the OPs post; Sullyvanj93, were you thinking strictly NPCs or did you have a playable race in mind? If it's just a few scattered NPC dwarfs, here and there in the Mojave (and they aren't going to be something special like companions), then I think you could get away with just a few models. A playable race (even partially complete) would be a much more in depth undertaking....but I do have some ideas in that regard.