You don't get to be king of the world by trusting people..

[kibblesticks]

 

I always get a giggle out of people who don't filter context when playing an RPG such as this. The wasteland is not our land, it is not our society, and it cares not for our liberal thoughts and ideals. It is a rough place, full of rough people, not to mention chock full of giant frikkin' scorpions that think people are tasty, and people die all the time for little or no reason. So how, exactly, do you expect the over-educated morals of today's western civilization to have any relevance on the life in the wasteland?

 

 

Which, in the end, is what allows Caesar to be fooled by you; he forgets who The Courier is as well.

 

I like the argument but I didn't really take it out of context. Let's look at Caesar's first dialouge options:

 

1:

So I finally get to meet the courier who's accomplished so much in so little time. That is why I summoned you here, right?

OR:

 

2.

You're the courier who's caused so much trouble for my Legion, and yet you dare come before me.

 

Both of these options show that Caesar is well aware of the Courier's capacity for getting stuff done. He's impressed and has allowed the courier an audience with himself despite the courier (potentially) having killed a bunch of legion soldiers and helped out the NCR.

 

You're correct in the fact that Caesar is a savage and brutal man used to getting his own way. However you'd assume he has survived a fair amount of assassination and trickery in his time, otherwise he'd have been dead years ago. Following this assumption it must also be said that he knows how distrustful people can be.

 

Up to a point you're right about his personality but remember he wasn't always a leader. He got were he is today by out-manouvering all his opponents, he was forged in blood and war and wields deception with the best of them.

 

Does it then make sense that he would A: allow the courier to have the chip back instead of sending some of his centuruions into the bunker, and B: Not think there was the slightest possiblity he'd been tricked.

 

 

Then again, as Drakeelvin says

Me, I don't try to make too much sense of the NV ecoonomy or technology tree, nor the strategy and tactics of how either side is implementing the war. I mean, the original Romans used thousands of ships to conquer Britain but the current bunch seem to have about 1 raft in total to ferry stuff across the Colorado. LOL.

Probably the best way of looking at it. :turned:

[Seviche]

Does it then make sense that he would A: allow the courier to have the chip back instead of sending some of his centuruions into the bunker, and B: Not think there was the slightest possiblity he'd been tricked.

 

Then again, as Drakeelvin says

Me, I don't try to make too much sense of the NV ecoonomy or technology tree, nor the strategy and tactics of how either side is implementing the war. I mean, the original Romans used thousands of ships to conquer Britain but the current bunch seem to have about 1 raft in total to ferry stuff across the Colorado. LOL.

Probably the best way of looking at it. :turned:

Well, I did say he was educated by the standards of the game, but I never said he was cunning. He trusts you because who'd be stupid enough to cross Caesar?

 

Of course, Drakeelvin is probably right, but where's the fun in that?

[kibblesticks]

 

Well, I did say he was educated by the standards of the game, but I never said he was cunning. He trusts you because who'd be stupid enough to cross Caesar?

 

 

If he's not cunning then how has he lasted this long? Being mean doth not a leader make. To defend his blatent disregard of the courier's potential alterior motives is to assume that every person in the east is a complete moron with no ambitions of leadership. Possibly this is the case but I doubt it =]

[Seviche]

If he's not cunning then how has he lasted this long? Being mean doth not a leader make. To defend his blatent disregard of the courier's potential alterior motives is to assume that every person in the east is a complete moron with no ambitions of leadership. Possibly this is the case but I doubt it =]

Caesar isn't mean, Caesar is fair; if you do what he desires, and you do it decently enough, you are rewarded. Fail him, and bad things happen. He's not mean and he's a decent enough leader. You seem to be operating under the assumption that Caesar can't make a mistake, or that if he does, it's some sort of pattern. We all make bad judgments; Caesar judges The Courier not on motive, but on accomplishments, and thus makes his mistake in *trusting* The Courier. Caesar believes that those who get sh*t done would think alike and thus be willing to work together and follow a parallel path, especially when *guided* by someone as powerful as Caesar. Caesar wishes to make The Courier his tool and fails or succeeds only by whim of the player.

 

You could also make your argument about Mr. House, as his actions (re; trust in The Courier) mirror those of Caesar. Mr. House only trusts The Courier because the Courier is successful, and because of this, invites The Courier along for a grand adventure... as his hands (tool) in the wasteland.

 

Of course, your argument only applies if one assumes that The Courier goes against Caesar (or Mr. House). If The Courier joins the Legion, then Caesar's attitude is vindicated and he has read The Courier perfectly. The same applies for Mr. House.

 

Let's do this a different way; how would you have written Caesar so that he would have let The Courier into the bunker? What situation would you put The Courier into if he decides to activate the robots and not destroy them? How would you have Caesar handle it and still allow the player the continue the game? I have a few ideas myself, but I'm curious to see what you'll come up with.

[kibblesticks]

Let's do this a different way; how would you have written Caesar so that he would have let The Courier into the bunker? What situation would you put The Courier into if he decides to activate the robots and not destroy them? How would you have Caesar handle it and still allow the player the continue the game? I have a few ideas myself, but I'm curious to see what you'll come up with.

 

 

Hmm...

 

I think the only way I could see him as this all powerful leader he is portrayed as, is if he did check to ensure the courier had completed the task (the task itself being a test of loyalty). Having done that, the courier would be invited to his tent as usual but when there, would be ambushed by Caesar's men. Simple, realistic and makes betraying a mighty warlord in his own encampment actually have repurcussions.

[Seviche]

Hmm...

 

I think the only way I could see him as this all powerful leader he is portrayed as, is if he did check to ensure the courier had completed the task (the task itself being a test of loyalty). Having done that, the courier would be invited to his tent as usual but when there, would be ambushed by Caesar's men. Simple, realistic and makes betraying a mighty warlord in his own encampment actually have repurcussions.

Sure, but then you have the problem of how to let the player complete the quest for Mr. House or The Yes Man after activating the robots. If Caesar does check and isn't pleased with the results, does the character then have to shoot his way out? If that's the case, then the robot activation quest should be a very high-level quest as shooting your way out of the camp is difficult, depending on the level. It also makes it difficult to play Legion against NCR as the Legion is going to want the player's ass after a a shootout of such magnitude. I think it would change the dynamic of how the factions work.

 

So maybe the idea of Caesar speaking with The Courier personally is the problem. Why is the Emperor stooping and asking favors of individuals? That might be the real issue.

[Rossum]

Let's do this a different way; how would you have written Caesar so that he would have let The Courier into the bunker? What situation would you put The Courier into if he decides to activate the robots and not destroy them? How would you have Caesar handle it and still allow the player the continue the game? I have a few ideas myself, but I'm curious to see what you'll come up with.

 

An idea:

 

Caesar notices a radiation leak coming from the bunker laying beneath his fort (could be how he notices the bunkers existence in the first place) and has his men search for someone with the expertise to fix the problem. Caesar doesn't want to move his whole camp if he can't help it but he can't have some mysterious pre-war thing polluting everything. House arranges for the Courier to be the one to 'fix' the problem (it might even look like House is trying to win favor with Caesar in case the Legion beats the NCR). The Courier goes into the Bunker with two legion personell in radiation suits, they fight the renegade robots inside, and the Courier has several options: Shut and seal the Reactor, Repair the Reactor, or Overload the Reactor. Shutting down or repairing the reactor will stop the radiation leak and win Ceasars favor a little. Shutting down or overloading the reactors eliminates the power source for the Securitrons and ticks off House (but later he can re-route power from the Dam to compensate for this). Overloading it will also render the fort uninhabitable and really mess up Caesars plans, it gains faovr for the NCR but the Courier will have to flee the bunker before it blows and then get in a huge shootout with the legion personell outside and be hunted down by assassins for the rest of the game.

 

However, fixing the leak is just the reason for getting you into the bunker, you can then try to install the upgrade covertly under the eyes of the two legion guys with you. Also, you can repair a radiation scrubbing system that would clear out the radiation in the bunker itself (which would let Caesar inspect the bunker, discover all the robots down there, and have his own men destroy it... I suppose both fixing the reactor and installing the OS would result in the securitrons fighting the Legion sent down there and causing trouble early... otherwise the Legion just blows up the robots).

 

House would find it ideal if you repair the reactor and install the OS but leave the bunker radioactive so the Legion can't inspect it early.

 

Caesar would find it ideal if you clear out the radiation in the bunker, shut down the reactor, and leave the securitrons alone so his men can blow them up at their leisure.

 

The NCR would find it ideal if you overload the reactor and just blow the Legions fort sky high while eliminating Houses cache of Securitrons... but this would be extremely dangerous for you to pull it off and escape.

 

Yes Man wants what you want (seriously) but thinks it would be cool if you repair the reactor, install the OS, maybe clear out the radiation so you get some breathing room, and then walk out of the bunker with your own private army of Securitrons to start chewing up the Legion right then and there. Well, I suppose you could have them wait until the battle for Hoover Dam that everyones got scheduled on their calendars before unleashing a robot army. It's what you want that's important.

 

 

 

The point is that Caesar brings in the Courier to clear out the radiation (or at least shut down or fix the reactor so it doesn't get worse) and he plans to use his own men to demolish the bunker when that is done with. If the radiation is cleared his men might inspect it and use explosives on the securitrons inside or if its still dirty he could have the entrance covered in concrete (which the Securitrons could dig out of with mining equipment or whatever when the time comes). The Couriers job is basically to do the job enough to not tick of Caesar, do the upgrade under the watchful eye of the guys with him (and preferably not get them killed by robots unless he expects Yes Man to give him the robot support to stride back out), and then talk with Caesar when its all done while Ceasar has his men seal up or destroy the bunker themselves.

[kibblesticks]

I like it =]