The Root

[csgators]

We have gone off topic in a few recent threads in the debate forum with a few post about why we are running up a massive debt and embroiling ourselves in foreign conflicts. So let's hear it. The federal government is isn't run by the "right" people? The federal government is to big/small? We are run by corporations/bankers/aliens/unions/special interests/military? We are overrun by illegals/fascists/communists/liberals/conservatives/progressives/greedy people? Is it simply lust for power and wealth by politicians? Let's hear it, nothing is off topic if it is about "What is wrong with the USA". Edited April 5, 2011 by csgators

[grannywils]

Wow, what a thread. This will be really interesting. First of all, let me say this. I will be coming back to post something more concrete probably tomorrow. But just for the record, I, and I believe you and most of us who will post, are patriotic Americans (or if not Americans, then concerned non-Americans). The simple fact that we may have issues with our government (whether from the right or left) or find some situations troubling does not automatically mean we are "unAmerican" or "anti-government", or "commie, pinko, veggies", etc., etc. So hopefully those of us who do post here will try to do so keeping that in mind; as will (I hope) those reading what is posted.

 

And I apologize, csgators for jumping in and sounding like I am trying to direct your thread. I don't mean to do that, I've just had so many of my threads locked, I'm hoping yours won't be. It's a good one.

[csgators]

And I apologize, csgators for jumping in and sounding like I am trying to direct your thread. I don't mean to do that, I've just had so many of my threads locked, I'm hoping yours won't be. It's a good one.

 

Actually I thank you very much for this post. It sets the tone I was going for. I don't want a fight, I want to hear the vast array of theories out there. I'm not saying people shouldn't reply to a posted theory but I do hope it stays civil and constructive. I always try assume that people posting have the best intentions despite someone may be posting the antithesis of what I believe. Thank you for this opening sentiment and I always enjoy your posts grannywils.

Edited April 5, 2011 by csgators

[Keanumoreira]

Wow, what a thread. This will be really interesting. First of all, let me say this. I will be coming back to post something more concrete probably tomorrow. But just for the record, I, and I believe you and most of us who will post, are patriotic Americans (or if not Americans, then concerned non-Americans). The simple fact that we may have issues with our government (whether from the right or left) or find some situations troubling does not automatically mean we are "unAmerican" or "anti-government", or "commie, pinko, veggies", etc., etc. So hopefully those of us who do post here will try to do so keeping that in mind; as will (I hope) those reading what is posted.

 

And I apologize, csgators for jumping in and sounding like I am trying to direct your thread. I don't mean to do that, I've just had so many of my threads locked, I'm hoping yours won't be. It's a good one.

 

I agree, and she has a very good point.

 

The simple matter of it is that every country has their own problems, there is no perfect utopian society. America is still fairly young, being like what, 200 years old, and as vast as we already are? Of course we have problems, but the answer is fairly simple. All we need is a little reform and time. If the goverment can layback just a bit on somethings, and give it time, then we will learn from our mistakes and hopefully improve. There isn't anything wrong with us, we simply just need to turn a new leaf.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Keanumoreira

[marharth]

But just for the record, I, and I believe you and most of us who will post, are patriotic Americans (or if not Americans, then concerned non-Americans). The simple fact that we may have issues with our government (whether from the right or left) or find some situations troubling does not automatically mean we are "unAmerican" or "anti-government", or "commie, pinko, veggies", etc., etc. So hopefully those of us who do post here will try to do so keeping that in mind; as will (I hope) those reading what is posted.

This.

 

Almost everyone thinks I hate America, I don't. I certainly hate how it is going now though.

 

That being said, the root of 80 percent of Americans problems is the corporations.

 

Why isn't pot legal? It would be a major competition to the drugs tobacco and alcohol.

 

Why are we in a bunch of wars? Military contractors make a ton of money off wars.

 

Why don't we have a good healthcare system? A good government system, or even good regulations would make companies loose money.

 

Why don't we have gun control? The NRA is a huge lobbying force in Washington. Even if you think that gun control should be limited at a certain point, or that we shouldn't have it at all, the only reason politicians haven't passed a stronger bill is because of the money guns make.

 

Why do we still have gas run cars and depend on oil for everything? Oil companies.

 

 

I could keep going, but you get the basic point.

Edited April 5, 2011 by marharth

[csgators]

The simple matter of it is that every country has their own problems, there is no perfect utopian society. America is still fairly young, being like what, 200 years old, and as vast as we already are? Of course we have problems, but the answer is fairly simple. All we need is a little reform and time. If the goverment can layback just a bit on somethings, and give it time, then we will learn from our mistakes and hopefully improve. There isn't anything wrong with us, we simply just need to turn a new leaf.

 

You make some good points, I mean looking around I agree that everyone has their flaws but as we are bigger maybe ours stand out more? We have always been a country of change with each new group that emigrates here maybe we just haven't found our balance. A nice grounded opening theory.

 

Almost everyone thinks I hate America, I don't. I certainly hate how it is going now though.

 

I have read a lot of your posts and I don't think you hate America. In fact I love that you are here posting because I disagree with you so much and yet agree on much more than you might think.

 

That being said, the root of 80 percent of Americans problems is the corporations.

 

Now this is great example because you are right and wrong at the same time in my opinion. It is the fact that our federal system has consolidated all the power in one place that is the problem. A one stop shop for corruption if you will. The companies have purchased our politicians and at this point every new power the government grabs it grants to the corporations. It is for this reason that the Federal government should be pared down to minimum size.

 

Why isn't pot legal? It would be a major competition to the drugs tobacco and alcohol.

 

I agree it was also competition for cotton way back when. This has lead to mass disinformation about the plant to the point the general public agreed with the ban. This is starting to change but we shall see. I support full legalization for the record.

 

Why are we in a bunch of wars? Military contractors make a ton of money off wars.

 

Certainly part of it. But I think it goes much deeper.

 

Why don't we have a good healthcare system? A good government system, or even good regulations would make companies loose money.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "make" them loose money but we should absolutely allow them to lose money unlike TARP and GM.

 

Why don't we have gun control? The NRA is a huge lobbying force in Washington. Even if you think that gun control should be limited at a certain point, or that we shouldn't have it at all, the only reason politicians haven't passed a stronger bill is because of the money guns make.

 

2nd Amendment and as unpopular/ridiculous as it may sound to some this is for the citizens own protection from their government as stated clearly in the Constitution and the Federalist Papers. Agree to disagree on this one I guess.

 

Why do we still have gas run cars and depend on oil for everything? Oil companies.

 

Still on the fence on this one but if what you say is true I would point the root cause to the businesses buying protection from the government.

 

 

I could keep going, but you get the basic point.

 

I Imagine I have given you enough to keep going already but please feel free to point out more and reply to my respones, I hope I did not come off as argumentative, I am hear for intelligent debate not a flame war (not that I think that will happen based on the posts from you I have read.)

[marharth]

The simple matter of it is that every country has their own problems, there is no perfect utopian society. America is still fairly young, being like what, 200 years old, and as vast as we already are? Of course we have problems, but the answer is fairly simple. All we need is a little reform and time. If the goverment can layback just a bit on somethings, and give it time, then we will learn from our mistakes and hopefully improve. There isn't anything wrong with us, we simply just need to turn a new leaf.

 

You make some good points, I mean looking around I agree that everyone has their flaws but as we are bigger maybe ours stand out more? We have always been a country of change with each new group that emigrates here maybe we just haven't found our balance. A nice grounded opening theory.

 

Almost everyone thinks I hate America, I don't. I certainly hate how it is going now though.

 

I have read a lot of your posts and I don't think you hate America. In fact I love that you are here posting because I disagree with you so much and yet agree on much more than you might think.

 

That being said, the root of 80 percent of Americans problems is the corporations.

 

Now this is great example because you are right and wrong at the same time in my opinion. It is the fact that our federal system has consolidated all the power in one place that is the problem. A one stop shop for corruption if you will. The companies have purchased our politicians and at this point every new power the government grabs it grants to the corporations. It is for this reason that the Federal government should be pared down to minimum size.

 

Why isn't pot legal? It would be a major competition to the drugs tobacco and alcohol.

 

I agree it was also competition for cotton way back when. This has lead to mass disinformation about the plant to the point the general public agreed with the ban. This is starting to change but we shall see. I support full legalization for the record.

 

Why are we in a bunch of wars? Military contractors make a ton of money off wars.

 

Certainly part of it. But I think it goes much deeper.

 

Why don't we have a good healthcare system? A good government system, or even good regulations would make companies loose money.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "make" them loose money but we should absolutely allow them to lose money unlike TARP and GM.

 

Why don't we have gun control? The NRA is a huge lobbying force in Washington. Even if you think that gun control should be limited at a certain point, or that we shouldn't have it at all, the only reason politicians haven't passed a stronger bill is because of the money guns make.

 

2nd Amendment and as unpopular/ridiculous as it may sound to some this is for the citizens own protection from their government as stated clearly in the Constitution and the Federalist Papers. Agree to disagree on this one I guess.

 

Why do we still have gas run cars and depend on oil for everything? Oil companies.

 

Still on the fence on this one but if what you say is true I would point the root cause to the businesses buying protection from the government.

 

 

I could keep going, but you get the basic point.

 

I Imagine I have given you enough to keep going already but please feel free to point out more and reply to my respones, I hope I did not come off as argumentative, I am hear for intelligent debate not a flame war (not that I think that will happen based on the posts from you I have read.)

 

Its hard to say whats wrong with the federal system.

 

I only used the NRA as a example, I disagree with strong gun control. The NRA does however pay congress to keep gun control away.

 

 

I don't think a bunch of local governments would help anymore then a strong federal government.

 

A federal government with power checks is harder to corrupt then a bunch of local systems.

 

Sure the local systems may be less corrupt in data, but certain local systems may be badly corrupt.

 

I don't know if that made any sense since I am kinda multitasking right now, but what I am trying to say is that I don't think the federal government is the root.

 

I think the federal system is messed up due to the money and nothing more. I think the system would be fine without people paying them off.

 

The federal government is only part of the corruption since the corporations are paying them.

 

So I think then root is not the fed, but the root is the money they get from banks and companies.

 

Ill make a list of reform actions below to better show my views

 

1. Pass a bill to make campaigns fair, this would be done by giving a equal amount of money to each person running and would be paid for by taxes. Private donations would not be legal. This bill should also make it illegal to work for large corporations in a high paying position for a certain period after getting out of office.

 

By doing this it would greatly help so people could get into office based on values, and not based on the money they get.

 

2. Get rid of all tax loopholes.

 

3. Get rid of the federal reserve. Hopefully this would be done in the same bill tax loopholes are fixed in.

 

4. Ban all government funding to multinational corporations. If you want help from the USA, then you can move to the USA.

 

5. Set up a tax funded healthcare system like in Canada.

 

6. Get rid of the FCC, merge the FBI, CIA, and TSA into one group. Make strict laws in the FDA so that it would be impossible to work for the FDA if you ever worked in drug companies.

 

The FCC is a waste of money, it is pretty much just for censorship. The wireless safety checks can be done by the FDA. It might be a good idea to just change the FDA to the Product Safety Administration.

 

By merging the FBI and CIA it will be much better for in country investigations and out of country investigations. The merging of these groups should also save tax money.

 

7. The USA military is too separate from the government at this point, there should be more laws regulating military actions.

 

8. Media companies should not be allowed to intentionally lie to their audience. This is one of the things people will disagree with a lot due to the 1st amendment, but if the media lies to people and changes their views the people will be tricked into doing and saying what the media wants.

 

 

I agree that the government is corrupt, but I don't think they are the root of corruption. I think the root is the corporations.

[csgators]

agree that the government is corrupt, but I don't think they are the root of corruption. I think the root is the corporations.

 

Maybe this is the root of our differences. When you say corporations are the root of corruption don't you really mean people? Corporations are just groups of people. This is what I don't get, people are by nature greedy and untrustworthy so why would we want to consolidate power in one place. It only attracts the most corrupt people to it like a magnet. They are disregarding the constitution everyday and no one cares. The voters just ask for more goodies from the corrupt politicians to hire people with guns to rob other people to get the money to pay for the goodies. We are all 'debt slaves' as harbinger posted a while back. Adding more power to the government is only going to make it worse.

Edited April 5, 2011 by csgators

[Aurielius]

Maharth Quote Excerpt

 

"Get rid of the FCC, merge the FBI, CIA, and TSA into one group. Make strict laws in the FDA so that it would be impossible to work for the FDA if you ever worked in drug companies. "

 

One one hand you want to enforce an imposed fairness doctrine and then you want to abolish the agency that would be tasked with the job. There is a minor thing you seem to willing to abrogate....Freedom of Speech.

 

Next you want want to merge external and internal intelligence agencies, they are separate for a reason.....protection of your civil liberties. What your are proposing is a nascent form of the Secret Police. Why you included the TSA is beyond me, the talents of intelligence and counterintelligence have very little in common with security of transportation in terms of personnel.

Just out of curiosity why did you leave the NSA out of your new Mega Security Administration, or for that matter the State Police? Decentralized axises of power is what keeps us free, the founding fathers knew that.

 

The restriction that you would like to place on the FDA hiring makes no sense, it might make slightly more sense if there was restriction for transiting from the FDA to a drug company but certainly not the reverse. which by the way there is such a limit already in existence.

 

What I am discerning throughout your post, not just the excerpt that I cherry picked ( which I had to because it was a target rich environment)... is a fondness for Big Government, which should come as no surprise is the antithesis of what conservatives like myself believe in. Big Government is the problem not the solution. The creation of massive new bureaucracies is always the mantra of the left to solve problems instead of making existing agencies lean and mean.

 

On th positive side I would propose eliminating Congressional earmarks in their entirety, mandatory civilian national service (with the sole exception permissible being Military Service) and the institution of a Flat Tax rate.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Aurielius

[marharth]

Maharth Quote Excerpt

 

"Get rid of the FCC, merge the FBI, CIA, and TSA into one group. Make strict laws in the FDA so that it would be impossible to work for the FDA if you ever worked in drug companies. "

 

One one hand you want to enforce an imposed fairness doctrine and then you want to abolish the agency that would be tasked with the job. There is a minor thing you seem to willing to abrogate....Freedom of Speech.

 

Next you want want to merge external and internal intelligence agencies, they are separate for a reason.....protection of your civil liberties. What your are proposing is a nascent form of the Secret Police. Why you included the TSA is beyond me, the talents of intelligence and counterintelligence have very little in common with security of transportation in terms of personnel.

Just out of curiosity why did you leave the NSA out of your new Mega Security Administration, or for that matter the State Police? Decentralized axises of power is what keeps us free, the founding fathers knew that.

 

The restriction that you would like to place on the FDA hiring makes no sense, it might make slightly more sense if there was restriction for transiting from the FDA to a drug company but certainly not the reverse. which by the way there is such a limit already in existence.

 

What I am discerning throughout your post, not just the excerpt that I cherry picked ( which I had to because it was a target rich environment)... is a fondness for Big Government, which should come as no surprise is the antithesis of what conservatives like myself believe in. Big Government is the problem not the solution. The creation of massive new bureaucracies is always the mantra of the left to solve problems instead of making existing agencies lean and mean.

 

On th positive side I would propose eliminating Congressional earmarks in their entirety, mandatory civilian national service (with the sole exception permissible being Military Service) and the institution of a Flat Tax rate.

Flat Tax...?

 

I have a hard time believing anyone can agree with a flat tax, but I would be open to debate about that after we got rid of tax loopholes.

 

Merging the CIA and FBI does not equal secret police.

 

I forgot the NSA, I knew I was leaving something about...

 

The NSA would be merged.

 

The security agency I am proposing would still have to follow every single law they follow now separated. This would make for easier communications.

 

At the FDA, that is so people in drug companies would not go in and then go back to their job. I suppose that could work the way you said as well.

 

I agree with getting rid of Earmarks. I should of added that to my post if I didn't...

 

I strongly disagree with mandatory civilian service. That is a huge freedom issue.

 

 

The thing is that my government system I suggested would be smaller not bigger.

 

They agencies would be merged, and I would add a single new agency. In terms of tax dollars it would probably cost less like that.

 

 

Maybe I shouldn't of said what I said about the flat tax or civilian service, I would like to know what your civilian service would be, and what your proposed flat tax rate would be.