The Root

[myrmaad]

"the natural laws of economics". pish posh.

 

I have a unicorn I'll sell you cheap.

[RZ1029]

Now, I'm homeschooled and have arguments aplenty against public school, but I find the point moot because it is an unnecessary governmental service which is, once again, paid for by tax dollars.

I have a younger brother and sister who were homeschooled. Now, to precursor this: their reasons were medical-related which may have affected this in part, but though they are very intelligent, they lack many of the social skills that have honestly made me far more successful all around. From dating to school to work, being able to communicate and interact with others is extremely important. Especially if you don't like them.

 

We do need a public school system, some people can learn on there own just fine though.

Agreed.

 

I personally think the drop out age should be drastically lowered. I think eighteen is too high (16 is still too high, if its 16 if your state).

Agreed. I'd say perhaps 14, or whenever they enter highschool. Though, I also think the education system as a whole should be more accelerated than it currently is, so my idea would be they have had basic algebra before they were able to drop out.

 

Kids and teenagers hate school, and they hate school for a reason. Forcing them to go won't help much at all.

Some hate it, I loved my time in elementary, middle and high school. Like anyone, I had the occasional frustration, but I just shouldered through it and went onward, a little thicker skinned and hopefully a little better for it.

 

A lot of kids make it worse for other people who want to learn in school, and some people want to learn in school but are not willing to do a lot of the pointless stuff the school system makes you do.

A lot of kids make it worse for the teachers, which hurts the other kids who do want to learn. And I agree, I think that school needs a little re-writing into a more practical modus operandi. Especially in the English department. I'd say work more on doing reports and such, which you'll often have to do if you get into management of any sort in corporations instead of spending a month on something like Beowulf. (Which I happened to like very much, for the record.)

 

I do not think it should be switched over to private only, seeing as that would only benefit the schools and the people who can afford them.

Agreed.

We need to just reform the education system drastically.

One thing for sure is lowering the drop out age, I know that may seem bad but it is much easier for some people to just study and take a GED.

Lowering the drop out age would help in the long run I think, it would save tax money for one.

Also the school years are really repetitive, a lot of things are just retaught.

A lot of this could be fixed by making school year-round too. We could accelerate the learning as we don't spend three months every year re-teaching what they forgot over the summer. And since only those interested in learning would be in school at this point, we'd still end up saving in the end, I'd bet, in addition to having a lot of early graduations unless the graduation requirements were raised as well.

 

Also there is a lot of pointless writing and work you need to do in school.

What sense does it make to do 2 pages of the same kind of math? You clearly already know how to do the math if your solving the problems.

Practice. You'll do it in the real world too. Sometimes it's also called data entry, a necessary evil in many corporations and even in smaller companies with the advent of the technological era.

 

The system needs to be more leaned towards teaching, and less leaned towards "Write down a bunch of stuff, you'll be tested on it later so don't forget it."

Not to mention the teachers kind of suck, no offense to any good teachers but there are quite a few bad ones out there.

At least half of my teachers were mean as hell, and the only teaching they did was throw down a book and tell you to read it and write.

A lot of teachers are mean because they kids are rude and disrespectful. I always seemed to get lucky and draw the good teachers in school, so I can't speak much on that topic to be honest. But the two teachers I had that I remember as being 'mean', one was just an absolute *&$*# and the other was the best teacher I ever had, though I never realized it at the time. The first, now that I looked back, had a pretty good reason to be mean. None of us ever respected her, myself included. I always questioned why we had to do things that I thought were pointless, et cetera. As for the literally 'by the book' teachers, unfortunately there are far too many of those around, even some of the better ones are pretty by-the-book.

 

And I see your unicorn myrmaad and I'll raise you two pegasi.

Edited April 9, 2011 by RZ1029

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Free education is one of the hallmarks of advanced society. And it's one of the reasons, in my opinion, why Europe is pulling away from the US, because not only are the first 12 years free, but college level *is* too (and now I say *is* because I'm using Italy as an example: yes it does cost something in taxes, and books cost, too, BUT it is something that any working person could afford and the tax cost is proportionally based on the amount of money you make, and the whole package is a fraction of what it would cost in the US). An educated populace is a strong populace.

 

Lowering the drop-out age, I think, would be disastrous for the same reasons that having to pay 10+ thousand dollars a year minimum for college is disastrous. You let people drop out early and they will, especially the stupid ones. And since when do stupid kids know what's best for them? or "adults" for that matter? Poor, societally-undernourished kids will drop out by the tens of thousands, and many wouldn't spend the time getting a GED. What would be the point? They can't afford college and they're already out, they'll "make their own way". How? Obviously something illegal, or along the lines of, "Do you want fries with that?"

 

No, no, forcing kids to stay in school is overall a very good thing. Hell's bells, forcing their butts into college would be a good thing. High School gives you almost no skills that are useful in the world, aside from social interaction.

 

Letting the little buggers scamp out of the only hope they have of getting educated will only further demotivate the already demotivated.

 

 

 

[grannywils]

RZ1029, you do not mention your age on your profile page. We have already determined that Marharth is 19. I have always advocated for the youth's right to have a say in how they can best be educated. Up to a point. This is because I remember being in high school as a relatively bright student and being bored to tears. I hated history, and as a result paid minimal attention. Of course now I love the subject and absorb everything I can like a sponge. And I do wish that it had been taught differently or that I could have had a say in how it was done.

 

My point is that yes, young people need to be engaged in what they learn and how they learn it. However, I cannot agree that they are ready to make all of the decisions. When you say that the drop out age should be lowered (in one case I believe you said to as low as 14). in my opinion you are way off the mark. A 14 year old mind is just not ready to make that decision. It is not fully developed, it needs more time. It is capable of taking in magnitudes of knowledge and information. And, more importantly, just what will that inexperienced 14 or 15 or 16 year old be doing with his/her time when he drops out?

 

And Myrmaad, I'll take the unicorn. Love them. Have a beauty in my Oblivion game!

 

Sorry, my post went up same time as Wizard's

 

Ok, and now that I have read it, I see that in is own wonderful inimitable fashion he has said it all so much more articulately than I. But, "yeah, what he said!!!"

 

[WizardOfAtlantis]

To touch back upon the evils of corporations, I urge you all to Go To the Website of the folks who made "The Corporation", an incredibly well-made documentary on the history of the corporation itself, its origins, evolution, and present state. I found it very entertaining, illuminating, and thoroughly well-done.

Under their "The Film" tab, you can watch their shareware version of their documentary, 2 and a half hours of eye-opening fact for how these Entities really work today. You can also hop over to YouTube and find it there in a few guises. It has 23 parts, so you'll know if you got the right one. Regardless, going to the website's a sure thing as they'll link you there. Plus, they sell (for the very hard-core interested) a special dvd release that has something like six to eight hours of extra material! http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/unsure.gif

[Aurielius]

"the natural laws of economics". pish posh.

 

I have a unicorn I'll sell you cheap.

 

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2791/6129.gif

Since we are using the natural laws of economics I will not be able to buy the unicorn from you but will have to use barter instead. So will you take one slightly stuck fairy for your unicorn?

Edited April 9, 2011 by Aurielius

[RZ1029]

RZ1029, you do not mention your age on your profile page.

Intentional. I'm vague like that because I don't want my opinions or comments or anything as such colored by my age. I live and work in an environment where age can make or break you, no matter your knowledge or skill.

 

We have already determined that Marharth is 19. I have always advocated for the youth's right to have a say in how they can best be educated. Up to a point. This is because I remember being in high school as a relatively bright student and being bored to tears. I hated history, and as a result paid minimal attention. Of course now I love the subject and absorb everything I can like a sponge. And I do wish that it had been taught differently or that I could have had a say in how it was done.

 

My point is that yes, young people need to be engaged in what they learn and how they learn it. However, I cannot agree that they are ready to make all of the decisions. When you say that the drop out age should be lowered (in one case I believe you said to as low as 14). in my opinion you are way off the mark. A 14 year old mind is just not ready to make that decision. It is not fully developed, it needs more time. It is capable of taking in magnitudes of knowledge and information. And, more importantly, just what will that inexperienced 14 or 15 or 16 year old be doing with his/her time when he drops out?

You know, you make a good point. I guess I'm thinking along the lines of the 'slightly above to well above average student' that I was considered in high-school. For the average student, I think you're right now that I think about it. They're probably not capable of making that decision, and I'm not entirely sure I was either.

[juderodney]

To touch back upon the evils of corporations, I urge you all to Go To the Website of the folks who made "The Corporation", an incredibly well-made documentary on the history of the corporation itself, its origins, evolution, and present state. I found it very entertaining, illuminating, and thoroughly well-done.

Under their "The Film" tab, you can watch their shareware version of their documentary, 2 and a half hours of eye-opening fact for how these Entities really work today. You can also hop over to YouTube and find it there in a few guises. It has 23 parts, so you'll know if you got the right one. Regardless, going to the website's a sure thing as they'll link you there. Plus, they sell (for the very hard-core interested) a special dvd release that has something like six to eight hours of extra material! http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/unsure.gif

 

Oh, you mean that documentary by Annie Leonard that's supposed to be about a court case which they hardly even talk about? Already saw it.

 

I also saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/user/howtheworldworks?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/21/tJEeKez1Jlw

[Dicecaster]

Here is the point I am trying to make: No matter how well the public school system is doing, even if there are no educational alternatives, it is not necessary to protect our freedom, and therefore should not be continued by the government, rendering everything else moot. I know that makes me look like a worthless j******s, but it is the case.

 

I will, however, reply individually to most of the other arguments here (beginning after my last post), for argument's sake.

 

@marharth

1. You might not trust businesses with it, but that's one man's opinion; there are plenty of perfectly trustworthy schools out there that educate children better than public school does. If you wouldn't trust businesses with education, does that mean you wouldn't send your kids to college? Plus, there's still homeschooling.

2. HELLO, the government can do whatever they want to schools, provided they get enough people to agree. With private schools, you might be putting yourself at the mercy of an entire school board, but with public school you're putting yourself at the mercy of the entire country.

 

@myrmaad

Yes, the natural laws of economics. If nobody wants to buy corn, nobody's going to produce corn, but if everyone wants peas, you're going to find a lot of peas when you go to the produce section.

 

@RZ1029

1. First off, you don't need an entire classroom to be properly socialized. I got almost all of my social skills from my mom and dad, and I'm communicating clearly with you, am I not? And if socializing just within the home is really a problem, there are tons of things parents can do to "properly socialize their children".

Plus, socialization in public schools varies; half the time you're gonna be stuck with 29 other kids who know as much about socialization as you do (why do you think teenagers are known for doing stupid stuff?).

2. Right.

3. Yes, if it's okay with their parents, kids should have freedom to drop out whenever it is necessary for them.

4. I don't think this is a problem with just public school. If you don't want to learn, you will learn little. However, kids who are homeschooled or are sent to private school are probably encouraged more by their parents, just because they've already taken an extra step in their kids education (and therefore care at least somewhat).

5. Sure.

6. Read what I said about it in my last post.

7. If the only kids left are the ones interested in learning, then they won't have to be retaught because they will remember everything that was taught to them, so that point's moot. You're right that they would graduate faster, however, so that might be a good idea (but I'm not sure). Honest question: Why would that save money?

8. Yes.

9. Yes, if there were very little hostility in public schools, it might be a lot better, but it is a near-impossible task to eliminate that hostility. In theory, it's great, but in practicality, it's just not feasible.

10. See "@myrmaad".

 

@WizardOfAtlantis

1. That is not for the government to decide. It is not the government's job to provide us with access to education, it is the government's job to keep us free. I believe education is almost as necessary as food, water, and shelter. Should the government provide us with these things? We do not pay the govt. to provide for us, we pay them to protect our freedoms! Just as I would not want to be forced to pay for someone else's food, I do not want to be forced to pay for someone else's education.

2. See "@RZ1029, #3".

3. I know it's rude to use all caps, but IT IS NOT FOR ANYONE TO DECIDE THAT ANYONE ELSE NEEDS EDUCATION, UNDERSTAND?!

4. See #3.

 

@grannywils

See all of @WizardOfAtlantis.

 

@WizardOfAtlantis

See the beginning of this post.

 

@Aurielius

See @myrmaad.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Dicecaster

[RZ1029]

2. HELLO, the government can do whatever they want to schools, provided they get enough people to agree. With private schools, you might be putting yourself at the mercy of an entire school board, but with public school you're putting yourself at the mercy of the entire country.

 

@RZ1029

1. First off, you don't need an entire classroom to be properly socialized. I got almost all of my social skills from my mom and dad, and I'm communicating clearly with you, am I not? And if socializing just within the home is really a problem, there are tons of things parents can do to "properly socialize their children".

Plus, socialization in public schools varies; half the time you're gonna be stuck with 29 other kids who know as much about socialization as you do (why do you think teenagers are known for doing stupid stuff?).

 

3. I know it's rude to use all caps, but IT IS NOT FOR ANYONE TO DECIDE THAT ANYONE ELSE NEEDS EDUCATION, UNDERSTAND?!

 

Just thought those there were curious statements all in the same post. The first argues a point somewhat brashly, though not entirely out of line. The second, you say you can communicate clearly, fair enough, I'll accept that, you've been fairly concise and pointed with your statements so far. And then the third line, it seems to contradict your second point, yelling is far from clear communication. Perhaps you don't communicate as clearly as you think. Just food for thought, not a personal attack in any way.