The Root

[grannywils]

Wizard, I read your post several times, and found it interesting, confusing, sort of irritating in some ways, and yet right on target in others. Since you are one of my very favorite posters here, I really want to be sure I was grasping your full meaning.

 

Your second paragraph was perfect, I thought. Unfortunately true and needed to be said.

 

Although I understand and to some extent can agree with your second paragraph, I still hold onto the belief that their may be hope for even the lowliest among us, and maybe simply listening to them could be a start. But, there is no need on their part for the ranting and raving that we sometimes hear, when they have made no effort to improve a given situation, I agree.

 

I vehemently disagree that "voting doesn't count". You practically said so in your next sentence. Since half the population doesn't bother, how do we know. Maybe if they took the time to "bother", it would count. Maybe if they just took the time to care enough about how this country is governed. And spent even that much effort (it is called thinking) in the whole process, maybe, just maybe we could work our way into some better governance at least. As for the rest of that paragraph, yes doing is important. But let us look at what the "average American" is doing. Most of us are living on low to modest incomes. Some with families to support. Many with multiple jobs, children in school, etc. I've been there and know the time that all of that takes. In my opinion, that is all part of the business of "doing". It is what keeps the Country running. There are many of those people and others among us who do have the time to involve themselves in other activites which can more benefit society as a whole. Many do. Many more don't. I agree that we would be a much better society and human race if more did. However, the operative word there was "human". We are all human. None of us is perfect. We continue to struggle to improve ourselves, and these discussions convey ideas and the means by which we can suggest to one another what it is that is necessary for us to get a handle on what is wrong with our society and what needs to be done. Everyone has a place at the table; even those with whom we disagree.

 

I cannot agree that opinions by themselves are nothingness. We have to start with a thought process, and with the expression of same. Then we follow with the deeds and those deeds become substantive. Without starting off with the thought and the expression of same we all live in insular little vacuums.

 

Anyway, that is my response to your excellent post.

 

 

[csgators]

I think people should help other people and help out there country, they should not be forced to do so.

 

marharth, I am assuming that you support a federal income tax and likely support even higher rates. The vast majority of that money is simply given to other people and is essentially charity. Why do you think it's right for people to be forced into charity through taxes but not through service?

 

 

This thread has been great but fortunately I have been pretty busy the last few days so I have really only had the time to read the posts.

[Dicecaster]

As for civic duty and its bearing on decision making, I am personally of two minds. There's an idea I would introduce (probably in another thread) but this is part of the here-and-now of it.

 

There certainly is a part of me that doesn't like forcing people to do anything because true knowledge comes from within. However, that is tempered by the inarguable fact that a great many people, especially in the West, are do-nothings for their entire lives and give back little to nothing, and I mean to include not only to their government in this but also to their neighborhood, community and/or society in general. The human race, even.

 

This is especially painful when this do-nothing thinks he or she has some "right" to criticize a situation that he or she hasn't helped to better (and usually doesn't have any plans to in the future, either). And don't anyone bring up Free Speech, because what I'm talking about goes beyond that caveat. There are things that go beyond even the pen-on-paper glory that is the Bill of Rights, things in today's world that are too often ephemeral (at best), like honor, human/personal dignity, etc. People can say whatever they want, sure, but it doesn't mean that what they say has any real weight or change the fact that they might very well have been better off keeping their traps shut in the first place (but more on that later).

 

A LOT of people want to criticize the US for what it's become, but how many are actually and actively doing anything about it? Voting doesn't count, either, imo, in and of itself. That takes nothing *and yet it is still more than what half of the US population is willing to give*. If you've put in your time or done your deeds, then talk away, I say. If not, then your lack of doing had better be accompanied by one helluva grand idea (because *real thinking* is doing) or else I can't honestly say that what you say is worth too much.

 

*I do recognize the ordering of consensus in the modern world, for our societal structure gives this consensus the possibility of throwing its weight around* Hence, the utility of talking on this forum, for example, or electronic political group-gathering to show politicians amassed consensus. However, opinions by themselves are nothingness. I think they should be accompanied by something...deeds, the grand merit of the idea itself, something, to give them weight, substance, because in and of themselves they are worthless and it doesn't matter if you're free to speak them. Not having real substance to what they say, most people would be better off keeping their mouths closed.

 

As the All-Father (Odin) instructed in the "The Sayings of Hár":

 

"For the unwise man who comes among men,

it is best that be he silent.

None know

that he knows nothing,

unless he should speak too much.

The man does not know it,

he who knows nothing,

whether he speaks too much."

In America, people have the freedom to be do-nothings, and to voice opinions without even a suggested course of action (or with, whatever). This simple lazy-bum attitude does not mean they are subject to forced civic duty. The bulk of your argument for civic duty is red herring material. Furthermore, one must come to agreement about what ought to be done to fix a situation before actually doing it, which is what threads like these (for example) are trying to ascertain.

 

As an addition to my original post: there are many, many government programs that many, many taxpayers do not want to pay for. Some are unnecessary (some would say Medicare falls into this category, as an example) while others are vital to any country (most [but not all] would say that a defensive military is necessary). We must go through, very carefully and logically, which services are completely indispensable, and discard the rest, so that we are left with a government that allows as much freedom as possible while still defending us from other nations and from each other.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Dicecaster

[csgators]

Csgators, I must thank you so much for this thread. I am just lovin' it. Aside from providing some extremely interesting debate, I am hearing some delightful conversation and getting some wonderful insight into many of my fellow Nexus posters. Can't say that all of it pleases me, but all of it deserves to be here, and I am happy to read everyone's posts. Thanks again. Great idea. :thumbsup:

 

Thanks, it is very cool thread so far thanks in no small part to yourself. I had worried by the time I had time to post on it again it would be locked. :biggrin:

 

I would also like to point out that Wizard made some great points about the banking industry on the last page but really only scratched the surface. Of course that's all you can really do in this format because it takes books to get into all of it. I just ask people to remember the simple rule of 'follow the money" when searching for answers and what better place to start looking than looking at who creates our money and how.

[Dicecaster]

Actually, wait a minute. I myself am not sure what service or civic duty or whatever you want to call it are exactly. Would the regular posters please post what exactly what their definitions for these ideas are so we can all be on the same page? I've been talking about forced military service (drafting) and/or a sort of forced "community service" sort of thing (my personal ambiguity is what prompted me to write this in the first place).

[Aurielius]

Actually, wait a minute. I myself am not sure what service or civic duty or whatever you want to call it are exactly. Would the regular posters please post what exactly what their definitions for these ideas are so we can all be on the same page? I've been talking about forced military service (drafting) and/or a sort of forced "community service" sort of thing (my personal ambiguity is what prompted me to write this in the first place).

 

I am definitely not referring to a reconstitution of the draft for military service, would rather have ten volunteers at my side than one hundred draftees. But for those that do not join the Military a compulsory term of civic civilian national service , one or two years worth.

[grannywils]

Csgators, I must thank you so much for this thread. I am just lovin' it. Aside from providing some extremely interesting debate, I am hearing some delightful conversation and getting some wonderful insight into many of my fellow Nexus posters. Can't say that all of it pleases me, but all of it deserves to be here, and I am happy to read everyone's posts. Thanks again. Great idea. :thumbsup:

 

Thanks, it is very cool thread so far thanks in no small part to yourself. I had worried by the time I had time to post on it again it would be locked. :biggrin:

 

I would also like to point out that Wizard made some great points about the banking industry on the last page but really only scratched the surface. Of course that's all you can really do in this format because it takes books to get into all of it. I just ask people to remember the simple rule of 'follow the money" when searching for answers and what better place to start looking than looking at who creates our money and how.

 

 

Csgaters, quick response, as I have to get off my computer for awhile. I must agree, Wizard makes some great points almost everywhere he posts, so no surprise there. I always try to catch his posts.... And, once again, great thread!

 

[WizardOfAtlantis]

I apologize right off for the length of this one!

Although I understand and to some extent can agree with your second paragraph, I still hold onto the belief that their may be hope for even the lowliest among us, and maybe simply listening to them could be a start.

So do I. There is always hope, for everybody, as long as people somewhere are willing to pitch in and lend a helping hand. We're all on the same cosmic ship, even if we each have our own helm.

I vehemently disagree that "voting doesn't count". You practically said so in your next sentence. Since half the population doesn't bother, how do we know. Maybe if they took the time to "bother", it would count. Maybe if they just took the time to care enough about how this country is governed. And spent even that much effort (it is called thinking) in the whole process, maybe, just maybe we could work our way into some better governance at least. As for the rest of that paragraph, yes doing is important. But let us look at what the "average American" is doing. Most of us are living on low to modest incomes. Some with families to support. Many with multiple jobs, children in school, etc. I've been there and know the time that all of that takes. In my opinion, that is all part of the business of "doing". It is what keeps the Country running. There are many of those people and others among us who do have the time to involve themselves in other activites which can more benefit society as a whole. Many do. Many more don't. I agree that we would be a much better society and human race if more did. However, the operative word there was "human". We are all human. None of us is perfect. We continue to struggle to improve ourselves, and these discussions convey ideas and the means by which we can suggest to one another what it is that is necessary for us to get a handle on what is wrong with our society and what needs to be done. Everyone has a place at the table; even those with whom we disagree.

What I was getting at with the "voting doesn't count" is that I'm not sure it is enough in and of itself to really consider yourself a working piece of the mechanism. The paradox, which I do realize, is that if you vote, you literally are a piece of the mechanism. And an effective (in theory if not always in practice) part of the Republic. As for the rest of what you said, I completely agree. I would rank raising a good family very high on the list of what's important in life, and it does feed back into the systems that made you yourself. Beyond that, the balance between pragmatic and idealistic is difficult, at best.

 

I cannot agree that opinions by themselves are nothingness. We have to start with a thought process, and with the expression of same. Then we follow with the deeds and those deeds become substantive. Without starting off with the thought and the expression of same we all live in insular little vacuums.

As I have come to experience it, in the vast multiverse, thought certainly is one of the beginnings of manifestation. However, without any power put into it, it will blow away on the aetherial winds and go back into the nothingness from which it arose. Only concrete action of some sort can materialize the thought-form into a more concrete level of reality. It is an important step, thinking...often overrated in the modern world, but many don't even get to that level...howver, without fuel and continuation, it won't go anywhere by itself. How many great novels go unwritten? Beautiful sculptures unsculpted? Who knows? They don't exist because they were never made to exist.

 

 

In America, people have the freedom to be do-nothings, and to voice opinions without even a suggested course of action (or with, whatever). This simple lazy-bum attitude does not mean they are subject to forced civic duty. The bulk of your argument for civic duty is red herring material. Furthermore, one must come to agreement about what ought to be done to fix a situation before actually doing it, which is what threads like these (for example) are trying to ascertain.

You're right. People do have that freedom, and I think the world's a better place for it. Certainly more enjoyable. If everyone were fighting and hunting and gathering for a living (or under a truly oppressive regime), we wouldn't be accomplishing nearly as much as a species.

 

Like I said, I'm of two minds. One slightly leans towards it, but neither is fully for enforced civic duty. I wasn't really arguing for it. I was only speaking of some things that annoy me. There are meritable arguments that could be made for it, I think, quite easily. However, in the grandest sense, like I said, true wisdom comes from within. "What does that mean?" you might ask. Maybe you already know.http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/tongue.gif But for those who don't, some of what it means, I think, is this:

 

You cannot force someone to do the right thing. If you force them, it is no longer the right thing, even if they're then doing it. Justice arises from within, from being in-tune with the moment in which one is living. The right responses must arise from personal will, can only arise from personal will. All else is an imposition, and therefore false because by definition it is a layer between one's self and reality. Wisdom, truth, come from union, not division.

 

However, we live in the "real world", and some level of pragmatism must come into play because those "grand levels" are at times as reachable as the clouds. So how does that help? It helps because if people can't be truly made to do the right thing, we see that they have to be motivated to do it themselves. So what's motivating about being a citizen these days? What do we value and where are the rewards? Why would we want to become part of something we disagree with? Where are the real leaders in the world?

 

The answer is that there's very little motivating people to do the right thing. Making lots of money isn't enough, and for most everyone, that's a lie of a dream, anyway. People need examples of correct behavior so that they can become more fulfilled, greater. Where are they? Politicians are for the most part corrupt liars. The bigger they are, the worse they are. Banks devour lives. Corporations have all the privileges of a human being and yet none of the responsibility. Sports figures make ridiculous amounts of money for hitting a ball with a stick, whereas a research scientist might be well off if he/she's a genius, teachers the same if they get into a wealthy school district, and a working, single mother...! Let's not even go there. She's only taking care of the future, after all.

 

Society's emphasis is placed on manipulation and distraction. It's obvious, and it's working quite well, for the most part. Things are going to plan. If anyone is to change that, those mechanisms have to be replaced, preferably without bloodshed. Banks, corporations, politicians that aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. That is the Unholy Triad. Most of the real problems arise from them.

 

People can change it, peacefully. But they will have to be motivated to do the right thing, and they'll have to have a lot of support, because the Unholy Triad won't go down without some sort of a fight.

*should probably stop now before I fill the whole page*

[Dicecaster]

@WizardOfAtlantis

I'm sorry, I incorrectly emphasized what you were saying, and took it the wrong way. Forgive me.

 

Now, what you said in the last paragraph of your post is excellent, and I agree completely, but we need something to go on. We need a plan to get large amounts of people motivated (Google Ads doesn't count). And, while that might work well for the restoration of Old&Good America, you can't keep corruption out by inspiration alone. Political power is a drug; the very nature of government invites corruption. * Therefore, we would need to come up with a system sharper and more rigid than the one we have currently. IF we can manage to figure out the two, and find the resources necessary to substantiate them, we will have succeeded.

[marharth]

Actually, wait a minute. I myself am not sure what service or civic duty or whatever you want to call it are exactly. Would the regular posters please post what exactly what their definitions for these ideas are so we can all be on the same page? I've been talking about forced military service (drafting) and/or a sort of forced "community service" sort of thing (my personal ambiguity is what prompted me to write this in the first place).

 

I am definitely not referring to a reconstitution of the draft for military service, would rather have ten volunteers at my side than one hundred draftees. But for those that do not join the Military a compulsory term of civic civilian national service , one or two years worth.

How will this civic service help?

 

Why do you think that its OK to violate freedoms for the good of the country?

 

That would be unconstitutional and would completely violate freedom.

 

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

 

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

 

Nor involuntary servitude, therefore working for your country without your approval would violate the 13 amendment.