The Root

[Aurielius]

Actually, wait a minute. I myself am not sure what service or civic duty or whatever you want to call it are exactly. Would the regular posters please post what exactly what their definitions for these ideas are so we can all be on the same page? I've been talking about forced military service (drafting) and/or a sort of forced "community service" sort of thing (my personal ambiguity is what prompted me to write this in the first place).

 

I am definitely not referring to a reconstitution of the draft for military service, would rather have ten volunteers at my side than one hundred draftees. But for those that do not join the Military a compulsory term of civic civilian national service , one or two years worth.

How will this civic service help?

Why do you think that its OK to violate freedoms for the good of the country?

That would be unconstitutional and would completely violate freedom.

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

Nor involuntary servitude, therefore working for your country without your approval would violate the 13 amendment.

 

II the draft was legal so could this be, and not everyone shares your lack of commitment to the country. It seems that you feel you are entitled but not responsible.

[marharth]

Actually, wait a minute. I myself am not sure what service or civic duty or whatever you want to call it are exactly. Would the regular posters please post what exactly what their definitions for these ideas are so we can all be on the same page? I've been talking about forced military service (drafting) and/or a sort of forced "community service" sort of thing (my personal ambiguity is what prompted me to write this in the first place).

 

I am definitely not referring to a reconstitution of the draft for military service, would rather have ten volunteers at my side than one hundred draftees. But for those that do not join the Military a compulsory term of civic civilian national service , one or two years worth.

How will this civic service help?

Why do you think that its OK to violate freedoms for the good of the country?

That would be unconstitutional and would completely violate freedom.

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

Nor involuntary servitude, therefore working for your country without your approval would violate the 13 amendment.

 

II the draft was legal so could this be, and not everyone shares your lack of commitment to the country. It seems that you feel you are entitled but not responsible.

The draft was taken off for many reasons.

 

I do not have a lack of commitment to the country, I have done volunteer work for my church (when I went to church) back when I lived in North Carolina. I am planning on either joining the military or getting a job in law enforcement or a government agency. I am only 19 and still have my entire life ahead of me, you can't really judge my level of commitment just yet.

 

I don't want people being forced to do something that they do not want to do. I understand completely why you may want it since quite honestly a lot of people are lazy due to modern technology.

 

I do not lack a commitment, I just don't like things that take away freedom.

[csgators]

Actually, wait a minute. I myself am not sure what service or civic duty or whatever you want to call it are exactly. Would the regular posters please post what exactly what their definitions for these ideas are so we can all be on the same page? I've been talking about forced military service (drafting) and/or a sort of forced "community service" sort of thing (my personal ambiguity is what prompted me to write this in the first place).

 

I am definitely not referring to a reconstitution of the draft for military service, would rather have ten volunteers at my side than one hundred draftees. But for those that do not join the Military a compulsory term of civic civilian national service , one or two years worth.

How will this civic service help?

Why do you think that its OK to violate freedoms for the good of the country?

That would be unconstitutional and would completely violate freedom.

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

Nor involuntary servitude, therefore working for your country without your approval would violate the 13 amendment.

 

II the draft was legal so could this be, and not everyone shares your lack of commitment to the country. It seems that you feel you are entitled but not responsible.

The draft was taken off for many reasons.

 

I do not have a lack of commitment to the country, I have done volunteer work for my church (when I went to church) back when I lived in North Carolina. I am planning on either joining the military or getting a job in law enforcement or a government agency. I am only 19 and still have my entire life ahead of me, you can't really judge my level of commitment just yet.

 

I don't want people being forced to do something that they do not want to do. I understand completely why you may want it since quite honestly a lot of people are lazy due to modern technology.

 

I do not lack a commitment, I just don't like things that take away freedom.

 

Please explain how income tax is not enslavement of the worst kind. We punish the most those who work the hardest. About half of every hour I work goes to someone else. I am a SLAVE and so is every taxpayer as long as we are forced to forfeit the product of our labor to men with guns.

Edited April 8, 2011 by csgators

[Aurielius]

 

The draft was taken off for many reasons.

The draft was ended for political not legal reason, it is constitutional in every respect and had been in force for over fifty years. So invalid argument. Your references to the 13th amendment are totally extraneous in relation to the concept of a draft, nice try..no cigar. Any time you want to argue the Constitution you should do your homework.

 

I do not have a lack of commitment to the country, I have done volunteer work for my church (when I went to church) back when I lived in North Carolina.

One is judged by their actions since we cannot view your actions we are left with your many posts to make that judgment call. I quote from one of the numerous posts that you have made regarding the fact that you owed nothing to the country since "I didn't ask to be born here", sometimes being prolific has it's disadvantages.

 

I am planning on either joining the military or getting a job in law enforcement or a government agency. I am only 19 and still have my entire life ahead of me, you can't really judge my level of commitment just yet.

To this I can only say that I don't think that you have what it takes to make a go of a military tour, do yourself and the country a favor and rethink that option. In any of the services, the requirement is to put your life in your units hands and theirs in yours is essential. I mean this honestly, I would never trust my back to someone with your attitude in any of my prior commands and would never ask others to do so either. I doubt that I am singular in that command assessment.

 

I don't want people being forced to do something that they do not want to do. I understand completely why you may want it since quite honestly a lot of people are lazy due to modern technology.

That you feel service is something that is forced speaks volumes, there are thousands of young men and women who volunteer their services to the country. There were also many hundreds of thousands that were drafted to serve their country in peace and in war, a civilian national service would be something that would benefit the entire country and would have no detrimental effect on those that participated. More than likely it would give a commonalty of experience to a very self involved generation.

 

I do not lack a commitment, I just don't like things that take away freedom.

You seem to think that freedom is free, freedom has the highest price of all. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." ~Thomas Paine

I have responded to all your points and think that it is about overdue time to return this thread to how to fix the root causes of problems within the country, in other words this dialog is over.

[marharth]

 

The draft was taken off for many reasons.

The draft was ended for political not legal reason, it is constitutional in every respect and had been in force for over fifty years. So invalid argument. Your references to the 13th amendment are totally extraneous in relation to the concept of a draft, nice try..no cigar. Any time you want to argue the Constitution you should do your homework.

 

I do not have a lack of commitment to the country, I have done volunteer work for my church (when I went to church) back when I lived in North Carolina.

One is judged by their actions since we cannot view your actions we are left with your many posts to make that judgment call. I quote from one of the numerous posts that you have made regarding the fact that you owed nothing to the country since "I didn't ask to be born here", sometimes being prolific has it's disadvantages.

 

I am planning on either joining the military or getting a job in law enforcement or a government agency. I am only 19 and still have my entire life ahead of me, you can't really judge my level of commitment just yet.

To this I can only say that I don't think that you have what it takes to make a go of a military tour, do yourself and the country a favor and rethink that option. In any of the services, the requirement is to put your life in your units hands and theirs in yours is essential. I mean this honestly, I would never trust my back to someone with your attitude in any of my prior commands and would never ask others to do so either. I doubt that I am singular in that command assessment.

 

I don't want people being forced to do something that they do not want to do. I understand completely why you may want it since quite honestly a lot of people are lazy due to modern technology.

That you feel service is something that is forced speaks volumes, there are thousands of young men and women who volunteer their services to the country. There were also many hundreds of thousands that were drafted to serve their country in peace and in war, a civilian national service would be something that would benefit the entire country and would have no detrimental effect on those that participated. More than likely it would give a commonalty of experience to a very self involved generation.

 

I do not lack a commitment, I just don't like things that take away freedom.

You seem to think that freedom is free, freedom has the highest price of all. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." ~Thomas Paine

I have responded to all your points and think that it is about overdue time to return this thread to how to fix the root causes of problems within the country, in other words this dialog is over.

The draft may of been unconstitutional, you know the 13 amendment, how can you say that the draft does not violate that?

 

I am not obligated to do anything for my country unless the country gives me a reason to do so. I beleive I should do things for the country, and I have.

 

Why wouldn't you trust someone with "My attitude?" I can assure you there are many, many people serving that have a much worse attitude then me. You should judge what my attitude is based on my posts seeing as I am almost constantly arguing here. I beleive that was nothing more then a personal attack.

 

Saying "It would benefit the whole country" is a ridiculous argument. I did not say service is forced, I said mandatory service is forced.

 

Freedom isn't always free, but it can be. Quoting someone from 200 years ago isn't supporting your argument.

 

You have told me a list of things you have done, and they all seem to be after my age.

 

What was your service at the age of 19?

 

I don't think its very fair that your trying to judge me based on my posts in the debate section, and I don't think its very fair for you to claim I do not do service to the country just because I think mandatory service violates personal freedom.

 

You said that mandatory civilian service was part of the way to fix the problem we have, and not having it is part of the root. This debate is completely on topic, and if you wish to drop out that is perfectly fine but don't pretend your are leaving it for that reason.

 

"We punish the most those who work the hardest."

 

Not true, most of the richest people do very VERY little work.

 

However the rest of your post may be correct.

[Aurielius]

 

 

You have told me a list of things you have done, and they all seem to be after my age.

What was your service at the age of 19?

I don't think its very fair that your trying to judge me based on my posts in the debate section, and I don't think its very fair for you to claim I do not do service to the country just because I think mandatory service violates personal freedom.

Since I have yet to turn in I will violate closure just one more time. At your age I was flying close air support in Vietnam. I was a dual national and volunteered, I could have easily taken a pass but didn't because I thought it was my duty. As for command assessment, I think that after three wars and multiple commands I am in a position to make one. If you don't want to be judged by the words from your mouth then think carefully before you post.

 

[marharth]

 

 

You have told me a list of things you have done, and they all seem to be after my age.

What was your service at the age of 19?

I don't think its very fair that your trying to judge me based on my posts in the debate section, and I don't think its very fair for you to claim I do not do service to the country just because I think mandatory service violates personal freedom.

Since I have yet to turn in I will violate closure just one more time. At your age I was flying close air support in Vietnam. I was a dual national and volunteered, I could have easily taken a pass but didn't because I thought it was my duty. As for command assessment, I think that after three wars and multiple commands I am in a position to make one. If you don't want to be judged by the words from your mouth then think carefully before you post.

 

 

You can't judge how good I would be in the military or in other places based on a few of my opinions on a debate forum, if you can I think you would have done much better for your country in other places besides the military.

 

And no offense but your claims of experience do not help your point. I do not know for sure you have served at all.

 

 

 

If you think I would be such a bad public servant there are many others like me.

 

I would also like the make the point that serving in a war does not mean you are serving your country at all. Many wars are started for false reasons and fighting in them will not help your country.

Edited April 8, 2011 by marharth

[IndorilTheGreat]

Sorry to butt in like this, but there are just a few things that I had to reply to in this thread...

 

 

<snip>

 

You can't judge how good I would be in the military or in other places based on a few of my opinions on a debate forum, if you can I think you would have done much better for your country in other places besides the military.

 

From what I have read of your posts so far, I have gotten a reasonable idea of where you stand in regards to public service.

And no offense but your claims of experience do not help your point. I do not know for sure you have served at all.

 

How dare you question someones loyalty to their country. You have no idea how offensive it is to me when an American bashes their own troops. These brave men and women are fighting for you.

 

If you think I would be such a bad public servant there are many others like me.

 

I am sure there are.

 

I would also like the make the point that serving in a war does not mean you are serving your country at all. Many wars are started for false reasons and fighting in them will not help your country.

 

This ties in with what I put above. If you can not even take faith in someone telling you that they served in the military, then you have some serious trust issues.

Edited April 8, 2011 by IndorilTheGreat

[marharth]

Sorry to butt in like this, but there are just a few things that I had to reply to in this thread...

 

 

<snip>

 

You can't judge how good I would be in the military or in other places based on a few of my opinions on a debate forum, if you can I think you would have done much better for your country in other places besides the military.

 

From what I have read of your posts so far, I have gotten a reasonable idea of where you stand in regards to public service.

And no offense but your claims of experience do not help your point. I do not know for sure you have served at all.

 

How dare you question someones loyalty to their country. You have no idea how offensive it is to me when an American bashes their own troops. These brave men and women are fighting for you.

 

If you think I would be such a bad public servant there are many others like me.

 

I am sure there are.

 

I would also like the make the point that serving in a war does not mean you are serving your country at all. Many wars are started for false reasons and fighting in them will not help your country.

 

This ties in with what I put above. If you can not even take faith in someone telling you that they served in the military, then you have some serious trust issues.

I think public service is great, re-read what I posted.

 

I am sorry but someones opinion and statements without facts is not something you can do in debates.

 

I could run for president and say I served as a war hero in the military, if anyone questions that can I instantly say "HOW DARE YOU?"

 

Facts and arguments do not work on trust. A large part of his proof is his claim of experience, I do not know if he really has that experience or not.

 

Your reply to the last thing didn't make sense.

 

Your reply saying that there are other people like me proved that a forced "civic service" system would not work.

[myrmaad]

<snip>

I am sorry but someones opinion and statements without facts is not something you can do in debates.

 

I see people doing that here every day.

 

Facts and arguments do not work on trust. A large part of his proof is his claim of experience, I do not know if he really has that experience or not.

Yet we have a record of consistency on which to base an informed judgement.

 

Aurelius is not running for president, if he was I'm sure he'd be thoroughly vetted, and not bothering to post here.

 

There is room for opinion in discussion and in debate, and it is respectful to acknowledge that everyone has a right to draw their own conclusions. The problem comes when opinions are all too often masqueraded as facts, and backed up with old wives tales "everybody knows" as in "everybody knows we have a liberal media" instead of thorough research (if you follow the money, that isn't a reasonable conclusion).

 

So back to topic at hand, one problem is that my generation, the one most likely vote, was educated in piecemeal fashion and rarely given big picture insight, and I think that's part of the trouble. You went to biology and chemistry, and if you were lucky, astronomy, and in each of those classes you got an elemental chart but none of the teachers ever really acknowledged the whole perspective, and you probably had those classes in different years, and the pressure was on to get a grade, so who has time to contemplate the whole anyway. Likewise, you had a history class on the civil war, and later you had a history class on the continental war and later you had shakespeare, and if you were very lucky you may have gotten a class on medieval history or roman catholicism, but they were all far flung from each other and it was like looking at a square inch of the mona lisa without ever seeing the Mona Lisa.

 

I doubt that things have changed much (except that you have no prayer of getting a class on astronomy in high school.) This foolish mechanism for teaching is not only boring but creates an incompetency in rationality and logic. And that's just one problem.

 

 

One more thing. Soldiers are not slaves. Any judge worth his or her salt would laugh that claim out of the courtroom. Case dismissed!