The Root

[myrmaad]

Alrighty then, forget The Corporation if you insist, and read dan ariely's predictably irrational. The market will do anything, including antigravity handstands. I won't even tell you what I think of Adam Smith. pfft. Nor that psychopath Ayn.

 

I should say I think a lot more highly of him than her, though, and I think it's important to understand that writings are almost always a product of their time and historical context. If you lack a historical perspective, you'll miss a lot.

 

 

Aurelius it was nice walking with you this far. You can have the unicorn, my gift.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Oh, you mean that documentary by Annie Leonard that's supposed to be about a court case which they hardly even talk about? Already saw it.

What court case? Unless it matters, I don't care if they didn't talk about it. That's like saying someone went out for a walk, discovered Atlantis, and then some debunker said, "Oh, yeah the walk that discovered Atlantis that she didn't finish"....what's your point? It sounds...dismissive of a whole for a possible piece.

 

 

@Dicecaster, As to your "Freedom from Education" theory...

I don't even know where to begin...how would that possibly help cure some of the ills of the nation? Having stupider people...really! Seems like you're shortsighted on the importance of where your taxes go and you simply care more for not spending them than fostering intelligence in the very people who need to turn things around. Taking away public education is...I don't know how to put this gently...but it's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. There, that was gentle.

 

I'd also like to point out that your arguments against developing social skills in school are pretty poor as well, Dicecaster. there's only one person that comes to mind who's screaming in capitol letters and that's you, and you were homeschooled. Ironic.

Like, "IT IS NOT FOR ANYONE TO DECIDE THAT ANYONE ELSE NEEDS EDUCATION, UNDERSTAND?!" and "QUIT WAILING ON MARHARTH!" taken from your posts.

"Of course it is", in answer to your first shout, and "yes, it will happen" for your second...when someone says things such as, "stop quoting things that are 200 years old" when we're talking about a country that's that old more or less, well, that's a pretty unintelligent thing to say for marharth, and he should be told so. He's smarter than that. And I could go on--I did in fact, but didn't add it to the thread--and that's the nature of a debate.

Edited April 9, 2011 by WizardOfAtlantis

[juderodney]

What court case? Unless it matters, I don't care if they didn't talk about it. That's like saying someone went out for a walk, discovered Atlantis, and then some debunker said, "Oh, yeah the walk that discovered Atlantis that she didn't finish"....what's your point? It sounds...dismissive of a whole for a possible piece.

 

 

WHOOPS!? I saw the You Tube video on the front page of the site and assumed that was the video you were talking about. :S

 

That video is SUPPOSED to be about Citizens United vs. FEC, but barely even mentions it.

[Dicecaster]

Oh, you mean that documentary by Annie Leonard that's supposed to be about a court case which they hardly even talk about? Already saw it.

What court case? Unless it matters, I don't care if they didn't talk about it. That's like saying someone went out for a walk, discovered Atlantis, and then some debunker said, "Oh, yeah the walk that discovered Atlantis that she didn't finish"....what's your point? It sounds...dismissive of a whole for a possible piece.

 

 

@Dicecaster, As to your "Freedom from Education" theory...

I don't even know where to begin...how would that possibly help cure some of the ills of the nation? Having stupider people...really! Seems like you're shortsighted on the importance of where your taxes go and you simply care more for not spending them than fostering intelligence in the very people who need to turn things around. Taking away public education is...I don't know how to put this gently...but it's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. There, that was gentle.

 

I'd also like to point out that your arguments against developing social skills in school are pretty poor as well, Dicecaster. there's only one person that comes to mind who's screaming in capitol letters and that's you, and you were homeschooled. Ironic.

Like, "IT IS NOT FOR ANYONE TO DECIDE THAT ANYONE ELSE NEEDS EDUCATION, UNDERSTAND?!" and "QUIT WAILING ON MARHARTH!" taken from your posts.

"Of course it is", in answer to your first shout, and "yes, it will happen" for your second...when someone says things such as, "stop quoting things that are 200 years old" when we're talking about a country that's that old more or less, well, that's a pretty unintelligent thing to say for marharth, and he should be told so. He's smarter than that. And I could go on--I did in fact, but didn't add it to the thread--and that's the nature of a debate.

It's not freedom from education, it's freedom from being forced to pay for and participate in education. Also, I only shout when it is necessary (i.e. when I feel very strongly about the subject). Furthermore, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and a host of other important and outstanding individuals in our country's history were homeschooled; you cannot take one sample and use it to judge the whole.

 

What do you mean "Of course it is"? If I say "You need to eat whole grains every day, so the government should a) spend tax money on whole grains to provide for you and b) force you to eat them," I have just uttered a completely ridiculous statement! And what I meant about marharth was that people were attacking his character instead of his arguments (not everyone was doing this, just some people [especially Aurielius]).

[Aurielius]

diecaster excerpt

I have just uttered a completely ridiculous statement! And what I meant about marharth was that people were attacking his character instead of his arguments (not everyone was doing this, just some people [especially Aurielius]).

 

Having not posted a thing recently relating or referring to him I believe that you should read the rules relating to forum vigilantism yourself. Myrmaad has been on this thread twice since our minor clash and if she did not feel it appropriate to chastise my actions then you might want to give it a rest yourself. This issue might die a natural death except for your continual references to it. I have tried to move on and only debate the issues, you might consider doing the same.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Aurielius

[WizardOfAtlantis]

WHOOPS!? I saw the You Tube video on the front page of the site and assumed that was the video you were talking about. :S

That video is SUPPOSED to be about Citizens United vs. FEC, but barely even mentions it.

Cool beans.http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/thumbsup.gif

 

It's not freedom from education, it's freedom from being forced to pay for and participate in education. Also, I only shout when it is necessary (i.e. when I feel very strongly about the subject). Furthermore, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and a host of other important and outstanding individuals in our country's history were homeschooled; you cannot take one sample and use it to judge the whole.

 

What do you mean "Of course it is"? If I say "You need to eat whole grains every day, so the government should a) spend tax money on whole grains to provide for you and b) force you to eat them," I have just uttered a completely ridiculous statement! And what I meant about marharth was that people were attacking his character instead of his arguments (not everyone was doing this, just some people [especially Aurielius]).

A word of advice in social skills based on things I've noticed in life: The louder somebody shouts to get their point across, the generally less important it is what they have to say.

 

As for school, somebody's got to pay for it, and it has to be separate from religion and private interest. And of course George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and many other people living in Other Centuries were homeschooled. hahahahaha, what kind of argument is that? http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/biggrin.gif Sorry, but that was a good one.

 

As for "of course...', it's the duty of those that know more to help out those less fortunate. Period. We're trying to correct problems here, remember? Maybe you think you are living in a Democracy (you live in the US, right?...) Well, I hate to break it to you (not really but it's more "polite" that way), but you don't. You do not live in a Democracy. That's Modern Myth Number 736. You live in a Republic, thank the gods, which is based at times on smarter people telling less smart people what they have to do.

 

And it doesn't matter if you don't go to a public school, you still benefit. Where do you think most doctors, ambulance drivers, lawyers, chefs, etc etc ad nauseum get their education? Do you really want a country full of dolts, dicecaster? Who's that going to help? Besides the people who want to control them, that is.

 

I know what you meant about marharth, but you're wrong. I like marharth, so don't misunderstand. However, he was showing contradictory behavior and people pointed it out. No one was attacking him. If what is done is actually appropriate to whatever's being said, it is not ad hominem.

 

It means something when a retired military veteran, who has command experience, says to someone that they don't show the right characteristics for (mostly thankless) military service. Military service implies among many other things the sublimation of ego, selfless dedication to concepts such as duty to one's country, obeying superiors regardless of the rightness of what they say, etc., all characteristics that marharth doesn't usually show here. Aurielius (et al.) was more than right to point this out. He's doing marharth a favor for giving his frank opinion. It's a big damn decision to join the military and I hope he judges well his situation, whichever path he eventually chooses.

 

Enough about marharth! http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/biggrin.gif Everybody wishes him well, regardless of what's said!

[marharth]

RZ1029, you do not mention your age on your profile page. We have already determined that Marharth is 19. I have always advocated for the youth's right to have a say in how they can best be educated. Up to a point. This is because I remember being in high school as a relatively bright student and being bored to tears. I hated history, and as a result paid minimal attention. Of course now I love the subject and absorb everything I can like a sponge. And I do wish that it had been taught differently or that I could have had a say in how it was done.

 

My point is that yes, young people need to be engaged in what they learn and how they learn it. However, I cannot agree that they are ready to make all of the decisions. When you say that the drop out age should be lowered (in one case I believe you said to as low as 14). in my opinion you are way off the mark. A 14 year old mind is just not ready to make that decision. It is not fully developed, it needs more time. It is capable of taking in magnitudes of knowledge and information. And, more importantly, just what will that inexperienced 14 or 15 or 16 year old be doing with his/her time when he drops out?

 

And Myrmaad, I'll take the unicorn. Love them. Have a beauty in my Oblivion game!

 

Sorry, my post went up same time as Wizard's

 

Ok, and now that I have read it, I see that in is own wonderful inimitable fashion he has said it all so much more articulately than I. But, "yeah, what he said!!!"

 

 

I do think that most people at the age of 14 would not be able to make that choice, however some people at the age of 14 would be able to.

 

I would think before the age of 16, you should be able to take a drop out test that is based on intelligence, maturity, basic living knowledge, and of course basic high school knowledge.

 

I am pretty sure the dropout age is 16 in most states.

 

 

I understand why some people do not want to use tax money for a school system, I do think it is needed.

 

It should save a lot of tax money to lower the drop out age, and it should make you have to pay less.

 

Another thing about the school system the relates to the topic is that its too authoritarian.

 

Even in middle school and high school the system is way too authoritarian.

 

I understand why elementary grades should be watched and controlled more but it gets a bit ridiculous after a point.

 

There needs to be a lot more freedom in schools, I think that would greatly contribute to society by forming more free thinkers and more people questioning power.

 

From a early age people are taught to only listen to the people in power.

[SilverDNA]

I'm watching this for sometimes now ....

 

Alright, first off (and I say this with utmost franticness), QUIT WAILING ON MARHARTH! Many of you (Aurielius, namely) attack his character without actually addressing his point (which is known officially as an Ad Hominem attack). While I disagree with a lot of what he has to say, he's been doing a most splendid job of keeping his peace as you basically accuse him of being unpatriotic, which is what has been keeping this thread from being locked because of a flame war!

 

Now, I'm homeschooled and have arguments aplenty against public school, but I find the point moot because it is an unnecessary governmental service which is, once again, paid for by tax dollars.

 

 

 

1st of all there are at least 30 similar, but different cases of a method of arguments in debates. So pointing the finger only in the general direction and shouting flame war isn't valid, but it is a method of trying to shut someone up. So it would be more valid there not only to point to a general direction, but would provide some hard evidence explicit examples for the cases of accusation. It would be more convincing.

So it is (Ad Auditores) to the Audience as well in my opinion. That leaves one question who were you really addressing?

 

Oh, you mean that documentary by Annie Leonard that's supposed to be about a court case which they hardly even talk about? Already saw it.

What court case? Unless it matters, I don't care if they didn't talk about it. That's like saying someone went out for a walk, discovered Atlantis, and then some debunker said, "Oh, yeah the walk that discovered Atlantis that she didn't finish"....what's your point? It sounds...dismissive of a whole for a possible piece.

 

 

@Dicecaster, As to your "Freedom from Education" theory...

I don't even know where to begin...how would that possibly help cure some of the ills of the nation? Having stupider people...really! Seems like you're shortsighted on the importance of where your taxes go and you simply care more for not spending them than fostering intelligence in the very people who need to turn things around. Taking away public education is...I don't know how to put this gently...but it's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. There, that was gentle.

 

I'd also like to point out that your arguments against developing social skills in school are pretty poor as well, Dicecaster. there's only one person that comes to mind who's screaming in capitol letters and that's you, and you were homeschooled. Ironic.

Like, "IT IS NOT FOR ANYONE TO DECIDE THAT ANYONE ELSE NEEDS EDUCATION, UNDERSTAND?!" and "QUIT WAILING ON MARHARTH!" taken from your posts.

"Of course it is", in answer to your first shout, and "yes, it will happen" for your second...when someone says things such as, "stop quoting things that are 200 years old" when we're talking about a country that's that old more or less, well, that's a pretty unintelligent thing to say for marharth, and he should be told so. He's smarter than that. And I could go on--I did in fact, but didn't add it to the thread--and that's the nature of a debate.

It's not freedom from education, it's freedom from being forced to pay for and participate in education. Also, I only shout when it is necessary (i.e. when I feel very strongly about the subject). Furthermore, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and a host of other important and outstanding individuals in our country's history were homeschooled; you cannot take one sample and use it to judge the whole.

 

What do you mean "Of course it is"? If I say "You need to eat whole grains every day, so the government should a) spend tax money on whole grains to provide for you and b) force you to eat them," I have just uttered a completely ridiculous statement! And what I meant about marharth was that people were attacking his character instead of his arguments (not everyone was doing this, just some people [especially Aurielius]).

 

 

 

 

In my opinion it is the case of (fallacia non causae ut causea) "the deceitfulness of are not the causes in order to cause" at the start the post implied freedom and lack it in the end in the example with help of exaggeration. And you cleverly combined at the end with an (Exemplum in contrarium, instancia et ad absurdum) "But your example to the contrary, to the earnestness and absurd". So it would be more helpful, if you would keep on the subject on education and place a example of where exactly this is the case or relate your example hypothesis directly back to the freedom falsification you provided. Does that see any one else too?

 

WHOOPS!? I saw the You Tube video on the front page of the site and assumed that was the video you were talking about. :S

That video is SUPPOSED to be about Citizens United vs. FEC, but barely even mentions it.

Cool beans.public/style_emoticons/dark/thumbsup.gif

 

It's not freedom from education, it's freedom from being forced to pay for and participate in education. Also, I only shout when it is necessary (i.e. when I feel very strongly about the subject). Furthermore, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and a host of other important and outstanding individuals in our country's history were homeschooled; you cannot take one sample and use it to judge the whole.

 

 

 

Side note : From Wikipedia Engish on George Washington ... "He attended school in Fredericksburg until age 15." Wikipedia German ... (in contradiction with google translate... states the following about George Washington

"Until his 15th Washington visited the school years in Williamsburg, where he enjoyed while only a simple education, but increasingly employed in the private study of mathematics. Still stressed both his contemporaries and his later critics that Washington had initially had a rudimentary education character that was barely gone beyond the primary school. In the words of the future president John Adams: "It is certain that Washington was not a scholar, that he for his rank and name too uneducated, too few well-read and was too ignorant. This debate is nevertheless over. "

 

 

What do you mean "Of course it is"? If I say "You need to eat whole grains every day, so the government should a) spend tax money on whole grains to provide for you and b) force you to eat them," I have just uttered a completely ridiculous statement! And what I meant about marharth was that people were attacking his character instead of his arguments (not everyone was doing this, just some people [especially Aurielius]).

A word of advice in social skills based on things I've noticed in life: The louder somebody shouts to get their point across, the generally less important it is what they have to say.

 

As for school, somebody's got to pay for it, and it has to be separate from religion and private interest. And of course George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and many other people living in Other Centuries were homeschooled. hahahahaha, what kind of argument is that? public/style_emoticons/dark/biggrin.gif Sorry, but that was a good one.

 

As for "of course...', it's the duty of those that know more to help out those less fortunate. Period. We're trying to correct problems here, remember? Maybe you think you are living in a Democracy (you live in the US, right?...) Well, I hate to break it to you (not really but it's more "polite" that way), but you don't. You do not live in a Democracy. That's Modern Myth Number 736. You live in a Republic, thank the gods, which is based at times on smarter people telling less smart people what they have to do.

 

And it doesn't matter if you don't go to a public school, you still benefit. Where do you think most doctors, ambulance drivers, lawyers, chefs, etc etc ad nauseum get their education? Do you really want a country full of dolts, dicecaster? Who's that going to help? Besides the people who want to control them, that is.

 

I know what you meant about marharth, but you're wrong. I like marharth, so don't misunderstand. However, he was showing contradictory behavior and people pointed it out. No one was attacking him. If what is done is actually appropriate to whatever's being said, it is not ad hominem.

 

It means something when a retired military veteran, who has command experience, says to someone that they don't show the right characteristics for (mostly thankless) military service. Military service implies among many other things the sublimation of ego, selfless dedication to concepts such as duty to one's country, obeying superiors regardless of the rightness of what they say, etc., all characteristics that marharth doesn't usually show here. Aurielius (et al.) was more than right to point this out. He's doing marharth a favor for giving his frank opinion. It's a big damn decision to join the military and I hope he judges well his situation, whichever path he eventually chooses.

 

Enough about marharth! public/style_emoticons/dark/biggrin.gif Everybody wishes him well, regardless of what's said!

 

 

 

Now I have to agree basically with Wizard of Atlantis. I may want to add that Public schools further the Soft skills of most pupils other than just home schoolers and especially case of boarding schools further the case of building elites and elite like clubs like "skull and bones". So both have their pros and cons, but in dwelling in one alone a society can't survive on one alone. The main problem is that those elites lack the special soft skills (aside from only good looks and charisma) necessary to lead people really to the future so the problem is power mongering, basically nobody likes to lose power. So they maintain politically the 'status quo', because the other side could eventually due to the next elections gain or profit from the real causes which happened in my country in 2005 due to massive blocking of politics from the opposition who holed the majority in the "Landtag".

The same goes for economics and power they wash each others hand's.

 

So I believe the basic root problem is the laziness of citizens that tends to let others for them selves think and get themselves brainwashed by sham and unscrupulous charlatans that uses methods of telling you that you can't change anything. Well alone it is hard to change something for the better, but in a group of likewise minds ... well look at the power mongers and how they keep the small people down by building up small groups of elites you might take a closer look at the Donald Trump for president topic if you want evidence. And ask yourself the question whom would he prefer as economical partners for his elections and what would that mean for his political direction, all compromises..

Edited April 10, 2011 by SilverDNA

[RZ1029]

It's not freedom from education, it's freedom from being forced to pay for and participate in education. Also, I only shout when it is necessary (i.e. when I feel very strongly about the subject). Furthermore, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and a host of other important and outstanding individuals in our country's history were homeschooled; you cannot take one sample and use it to judge the whole.

They were home-schooled in an era where the common man spoke decent English, might know how to write, could figure well enough to do trades of chickens and grain. In that era, we needed inspiration, and both Washington and Lincoln were inspirational men. They had powerful words that carried meaning, even hundreds of years after they were said.

 

In this era, perhaps we could still use some inspiration, but we need men and women of facts and figures and numbers. Short of looking for a job, perhaps in HR, inspirational quotes need not be submitted with your resume. They need competency and understanding of more and more advanced mathematical, engineering and logical concepts as the world we live in takes the dive into the proverbial pool of technology. The days of chopping cherry trees* and living in one-room log cabins are past us now, for the most part. Now is the day of chopping into firewalls and living in server rooms from 8-5.

 

That all being said, I consider Washington and Lincoln to both be great presidents and people to be looked up to.

 

*(Yes, I realize the whole Washington cherry tree story probably never actually happened and that Washington's biographer likely made that story up.)

 

<snip>

 

 

I do think that most people at the age of 14 would not be able to make that choice, however some people at the age of 14 would be able to.

So what do you purpose we use to separate out those who are able and those who are not? Or perhaps just let them all decide and hope they know what's right?

 

I would think before the age of 16, you should be able to take a drop out test that is based on intelligence, maturity, basic living knowledge, and of course basic high school knowledge.

I am pretty sure the dropout age is 16 in most states.

I understand why some people do not want to use tax money for a school system, I do think it is needed.

It should save a lot of tax money to lower the drop out age, and it should make you have to pay less.

Unless we end up having to support them with welfare because they dropped out of high-school and cannot find/hold a job due to their lack of education. About all you can do with a GED these days is work for minimum wage, and in 95% of the US (maybe higher, to be honest) you cannot live off of minimum wage. Or if you can manage, you'll only barely have a living.

 

And in an economy where people with four-year degrees, and even Masters degrees cannot find jobs, I pity someone with only a GED on their resume.

 

Another thing about the school system the relates to the topic is that its too authoritarian.

Even in middle school and high school the system is way too authoritarian.

I understand why elementary grades should be watched and controlled more but it gets a bit ridiculous after a point.

There needs to be a lot more freedom in schools, I think that would greatly contribute to society by forming more free thinkers and more people questioning power.

From a early age people are taught to only listen to the people in power.

Because the people in power are in power for a reason. Perhaps you should read Lord of the Flies, I learned a lot from that book, no matter how much I didn't like it at the time. Authority is there so that chaos is not, and sometimes it's better off that way.

 

 

<snip>

Well... honestly Silver... you lost me for part of that and all I can say is that for the part I followed, well done.

[marharth]

It's not freedom from education, it's freedom from being forced to pay for and participate in education. Also, I only shout when it is necessary (i.e. when I feel very strongly about the subject). Furthermore, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and a host of other important and outstanding individuals in our country's history were homeschooled; you cannot take one sample and use it to judge the whole.

They were home-schooled in an era where the common man spoke decent English, might know how to write, could figure well enough to do trades of chickens and grain. In that era, we needed inspiration, and both Washington and Lincoln were inspirational men. They had powerful words that carried meaning, even hundreds of years after they were said.

 

In this era, perhaps we could still use some inspiration, but we need men and women of facts and figures and numbers. Short of looking for a job, perhaps in HR, inspirational quotes need not be submitted with your resume. They need competency and understanding of more and more advanced mathematical, engineering and logical concepts as the world we live in takes the dive into the proverbial pool of technology. The days of chopping cherry trees* and living in one-room log cabins are past us now, for the most part. Now is the day of chopping into firewalls and living in server rooms from 8-5.

 

That all being said, I consider Washington and Lincoln to both be great presidents and people to be looked up to.

 

*(Yes, I realize the whole Washington cherry tree story probably never actually happened and that Washington's biographer likely made that story up.)

 

<snip>

 

 

I do think that most people at the age of 14 would not be able to make that choice, however some people at the age of 14 would be able to.

So what do you purpose we use to separate out those who are able and those who are not? Or perhaps just let them all decide and hope they know what's right?

 

I would think before the age of 16, you should be able to take a drop out test that is based on intelligence, maturity, basic living knowledge, and of course basic high school knowledge.

I am pretty sure the dropout age is 16 in most states.

I understand why some people do not want to use tax money for a school system, I do think it is needed.

It should save a lot of tax money to lower the drop out age, and it should make you have to pay less.

Unless we end up having to support them with welfare because they dropped out of high-school and cannot find/hold a job due to their lack of education. About all you can do with a GED these days is work for minimum wage, and in 95% of the US (maybe higher, to be honest) you cannot live off of minimum wage. Or if you can manage, you'll only barely have a living.

 

And in an economy where people with four-year degrees, and even Masters degrees cannot find jobs, I pity someone with only a GED on their resume.

 

Another thing about the school system the relates to the topic is that its too authoritarian.

Even in middle school and high school the system is way too authoritarian.

I understand why elementary grades should be watched and controlled more but it gets a bit ridiculous after a point.

There needs to be a lot more freedom in schools, I think that would greatly contribute to society by forming more free thinkers and more people questioning power.

From a early age people are taught to only listen to the people in power.

Because the people in power are in power for a reason. Perhaps you should read Lord of the Flies, I learned a lot from that book, no matter how much I didn't like it at the time. Authority is there so that chaos is not, and sometimes it's better off that way.

 

 

<snip>

Well... honestly Silver... you lost me for part of that and all I can say is that for the part I followed, well done.

I just said how you could separate them in the post you replied to :P

 

Reread it, I don't think you got what I said.

 

"Because the people in power are in power for a reason."

 

Sure, but most people in power are not in power for the right reason.