The Dunmer are Romans

[frasil]

Like most people, I have always thought of the Imperial race as the 'classic' i.e. greco-roman element in the Tamrielic Cosmology; just as, for example, the Breton race seems to be roughly inspired by the Celts, and so on.

 

The Dunmer (in their 'primitive' form), at first glance, resemble nomadic tribes from the steppes of Central Asia. I'm sure everyone has noticed the ashkhans take their name from the Mongolian word "khan", meaning "king". Furthermore, the ashlander tents, called "yurts", have exactly the same name as their real-life Mongolian counterparts. But there's more than meets the eye.

 

The concept of Dunmer "seriousness" and "gravity" is actually an old Roman one, called "gravitas" in Latin. It consists in taking one's life seriously, even in the smallest actions, and never abandoning duty or caving in to frivolous pleasures (as opposed to the Greeks). Roman "pietas" was about being pious: to honor the Gods, the Nation, and the Ancestors. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? The Tribunal Temple teaches almost exactly the same things. Latin historians blame the loss of these virtues from the old Republic as the cause of the Empire's fall (that is the period of the famous Roman decadence).

 

Would anyone like to comment?

[Smashy]

:huh: wow... never did look at it that way...always did dislike the dunmer though...always so impolite...

[Yazatus]

Well, at the time when Vivec, Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Nerevar lived, those 4 heroic knights and wizards used to be a race called the chinmer (check my sig). After opposing the will of the goddes Azura she (Azura) cursed them to look fiercely and their noble skin darkened and the eyes turned to a bloody red. Sotha Sil then told the folks that it isnt a curse at all but a blessing, to calm the upset people. They believed in his words and the (now known as) dunmer even were proud of themselves and their shape.

[frasil]

I agree, Yazatus. It is entirely possible that their new behavior initiated with this so-called 'blessing' (clever one, that ol' Sotha Sil). Actually, this 'new ideal' thing ia a frequent psychological phenomenon: you are good at what you believe to be good (or strive constantly to be).

 

The change in skin also gives them a distinctive cultural feature. A common trait serves as a powerful force of cohesion for a people. That, added to a sense of 'gravitas' that no foreigner posesses, must have been decisive in the traditional Dark Elven xenophobia.

[Shakkara]

:angry:

 

"Heed the Emperor's law and might, but dedicate your body and soul to the sacred soil of Morrowind, and to the Temple which schools, nourishes, and protects its people."

 

I think this sums up your "pietas" and "gravitas", and this is a comment made about the Empire.

 

"The Imperial cult worships the Nine Divines: the Aedra Akatosh, Dibella, Arkay, Zenithar, Mara, Stendarr, Kynareth, and Julianos, and Tiber Septim, founder and patron of the Empire. In Morrowind, it's partly maintaining the faith for outlanders like us, and partly a missionary cult, bringing enlightment to the heathen Dunmer."

 

 

"The Empire is the greatest achievement of Tamrielic civilization. This melting pot of contrasting cultures is held together by a strong hereditary emperor and bureaucracy, by the rule of law, by a powerful professional army, and by religious tolerance. Education and wealth is broadly distributed through all social classes where Imperial culture has flourished; many citizens are literate and protected under Imperial law."

 

And here is something which looks like "Pax Imperium Roma"

 

 

Of course the majority of the Dunmer are corrupted, look at this from the Ashlander dialogues:

 

"The Ashlanders hate the House Dunmer, who have become soft, and who have abandoned traditional ancestor worship for the gods of the Tribunal. And the Ashlanders hate outlanders, who invaded and stole their land, and forced them to live as a subject people. A reborn Nerevar who could drive out the outlander invaders, destroy the false worship of the Tribunal, and restore the pure traditional life and faith of the nomads would be a very popular hero to the Ashlanders."

 

"Most Ashlanders wish all foreigners and their false gods could be driven from Morrowind. At very least, Ashlanders wish the foreign devils would leave them in peace."

 

Something interesting:

 

"The Imperials came out of the West and tricked the gods of the settled people, the false gods called the Tribunal. Now the Imperials act like they own Morrowind, and they claim we are ruled by their chief, the one they call Emperor. We think nothing of this foolishness, but they have great armies of soldiers in armor who come and burn our yurts and slay our children. So we hate them, but we must remember to be quiet and patient and cunning, as Boethiah has taught us."

 

"The Imperials are clever, industrious thieves and con men. Their legions are invincible, but individually they are weak and cowardly. Their civilization is a shabby imitation of High Elven culture, cheapened by the common greed and grasping nature of their merchants and monopolists. They have subjugated and enslaved the various peoples of Tamriel, and called this coerced submission 'peace.'"

[frasil]

Indeed, there is room for a larger interpretation. Yet the comment about the Empire you mention, Shakkara, at the beginning of the post is actually referring to maintaining deference towards Morrowind. In fact, "heeding" the Empire's laws is reminiscent of but a certain tolerance to those laws; yet dedication (to Morrowind) seems to imply a more whole-hearted compromise. Interestingly enough, the reference to "the sacred soil of Morrowind", that is, a strong bond with the earth, is typical of the early Roman agricultural society from the early days of the Republic (500 b.c. - 250 b.c., more or less).

 

The Empire (Septim Empire, that is) is very similar to the middle-late Roman Empire. Rome was tolerant of other languages and religions, particularly politheistic ones like their own (Christianity posed a special threat, specially by de-deifiying the Emperor). It covered a large land mass harboring such different peoples as a Breton is from a Khajiit (well, maybe not THAT different! :lol: ). It was this very extension that which utterly diluted the 'traditional' Roman values in favor of more cosmopolitan ones. Similarly, Dunmer Tribunal culture apparently still remains relatively pure, due to the small geographical size of Morrowind and it's homogeneous inhabitants (until recent years). The Dunmer saw their battles against the Dwemer and Nords i.e. foreigners as a battle between just ideals and evil, impious ones. This very thing happened in the first and second Punic Wars that Rome fought against Carthage, which was regarded as barbarian and unworthy. The real question is whether the original Imperials, before the Septim Empire, had the same cultural traits as the Dunmer have now. If they did not, then the Dunmer are the real heirs of the Roman Ideal.

 

On the other hand, the Ashlanders appear consistent with the ‘Mongolian/Steppe’ theme. Their worship of individual Daedra spirits and powerful ancestors resembles the animistic/shamanistic beliefs the steppe horsemen had in the real world. Alternately, the Tribunal Temple is an organized state-religion that sets the social order.

 

I think it can be affirmed that the Dunmer roughly represent, if any, the proto-Roman values of the early Republic.

[ObsidianKnight]

From a religious standpoint, the Imperials are the most Greco-Roman, with their nine gods and goddesses representing different traits. However, the Dunmer worship saints, have an extensive hierarchy in their temple, with their god-Kings, and bishop-ike Patriarchs. If anything, I'd say they're almost Catholic-like.

 

The Agophora (I forgot how to spell it... its the history/religious book of the Dunmer) almost resembles the Bible in the term of the fact it describes the history of the Dunmer. Also like the Bible in the Medieval times, it was controlled strictly by the Catholic church, though in a different way. The Catholic Bible was written in Latin, which few people could read.

 

I agree that the Ashlanders resemble the Asian Mongolian tribes, with their portable yurts, and hunter-gatherer society.

[cmac]

Well, at the time when Vivec, Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Nerevar lived, those 4 heroic knights and wizards used to be a race called the chinmer (check my sig). After opposing the will of the goddes Azura she (Azura) cursed them to look fiercely and their noble skin darkened and the eyes turned to a bloody red. Sotha Sil then told the folks that it isnt a curse at all but a blessing, to calm the upset people. They believed in his words and the (now known as) dunmer even were proud of themselves and their shape.

1) Nerevar, Sotha Sil, and Vivec were not 'knights'. Nerevar was a general, Sotha Sil was a wizard, and Vivec was a poetically-inspired leader. Almalexia was neither a wizard nor a knight. She was the wife of Nerevar, and did not acquire any magical ability (apart from the inherent magic skills) until the Tapping of the Heart.

2)How does Azura "curse someone to look fiercly," exactly? SHe changed their appearence to forever remind them that their leaders sinned by pertaking in the profane power of the heart.

3)The Dunmer are not "now known as." They have been known as Dunmer from the time Azura cursed them on. Here is a direct excerpt from The Battle At Red Mountain: For some years we kept the oaths we swore to Azura with Nerevar, but during that time, in secret, Sotha Sil must have studied the tools and divined their mysteries. And at last he came to us with a vision of a new world of peace, with justice and honor for nobles, and health and prosperity for the commoners, with the Tribunal as immortal patrons and guides. And dedicating ourselves to this vision of a better world, we made a pilgrimage to Red Mountain and transformed ourselves with the power of Kagrenac's tools.<BR>

 

And no sooner than we had completed our rituals and begun to discover our new-found powers, the Daedra Lord Azura appeared and cursed us for our foresworn oaths. By her powers of prophecy, she assured us that her champion, Nerevar, true to his oath, would return to punish us for our perfidy, and to make sure such profane knowledge might never again be used to mock and defy the will of the gods. But Sotha Sil said to her, "The old gods are cruel and arbitrary, and distant from the hopes and fears of mer. Your age is past. We are the new gods, born of the flesh, and wise and caring of the needs of our people. Spare us your threats and chiding, inconstant spirit. We are bold and fresh, and will not fear you."<BR>

 

And then, in that moment, all Chimer were changed into Dunmer, and our skins turned ashen and our eyes into fire. Of course, we only knew at that time that this had happened to us, but Azura said, "This is not my act, but your act. You have chosen your fate, and the fate of your people, and all the Dunmer shall share your fate, from now to the end of time. You think yourselves gods, but you are blind, and all is darkness." And Azura left us alone, in darkness, and we were all afraid, but we put on brave faces, and went forth from Red Mountain to build the new world of our dreams.

 

4) Chinmer? Let's try 'Chimer" And, for the sake of accuracy, change your sig to reflect that.

[Marxist ßastard]

Cmac:

 

2)How does Azura "curse someone to look fiercly," exactly? SHe changed their appearence to forever remind them that their leaders sinned by pertaking in the profane power of the heart.

 

Ask... And answer.

[ObsidianKnight]

Cmac:

 

2)How does Azura "curse someone to look fiercly," exactly? SHe changed their appearence to forever remind them that their leaders sinned by pertaking in the profane power of the heart.

 

Ask... And answer.

He's a Daedra Lord (or she? I never can figure it out). If you're a Daedra Lord, youre like a god, you can do almost anything you want.