No attributes? Am I the only one Worried?

[Zaldir]

I'm not just worried, I'm disgusted.

 

There's no such thing as easier access AND more in depth.

 

The only thing it does is make it more understandable for people that have never played an RPG.

 

I don't understand why they would import the WoW tree system. It just doesn't fit at all.

There is no WoW Tree system. If you think WoW was the first game to use talent trees, then I guess you are among the ones who have never played a true RPG... :P

Besides, in Skyrim, there is a Perk Tree for every skill, which means 18 trees, if not more, as there might be something like a "general" tree. (It's the same as in Fallout, only that now you can actually see which perks you can choose later when you pick a perk.)

 

And, yes, you can make something easier to access, but still give it more depth.

 

Actually, doing the math and other things this system will not work as it does not work on paper. Most of the time anything that does not work well on paper will not work in practice. This is not organic as it very straight forward and very limiting, you will be at the mercy of the game and it has a very large margin of error. While there is a small chance it could work, but it leaves me worried at the fact if it messed up the game will feel shallow, less never equals more ever. The lack of skills is why i am worried lack of decent attribute system invisible or visible is also disturbing considering things like dex. Lets just hope Perks work like Feats in pen and paper. But thanks for the responses both sides have good points well have to wait and see sadly I not getting this game on launch I want to wait and see how it works (sorry to many games have been bad and I cannot return computer games *looks at Dragon Age 2*)

What's your source that this doesn't work on paper?

And I can't say it's very straight forward, as there's so many possibilities with perks, and you have to choose wisely which perks to pick, as you can't even have every perk!

I don't see where this "lack of skills" is coming from? They have removed Mysticism, and placed every spell from it into other schools of magic, so there's not really anything missing there. And they have removed Athletics and acrobatics, which really didn't have much use as skills, as, well, who doesn't run or jump? Those skills were also too overpowered, as you could jump to places where enemies could not reach you very early in the game, or outrun anyone even when running backwards, also early in the game.

 

I understand the skepticism though, as there's been too many poorly made games lately. *Looks at Dragon Age 2 and Gothic 4*

[dwellufool]

I really wanted this in their "you're not classing, you're whatever you want to be after you find out what everything does."

 

This means Stam could feed into melee, Magicka into casters, Health to healing type casters I'm guessing, or another approach to heavier melee.

 

They just got rid of the BS, gave you the three to choose from, and from their using the sub-classes you specify what it is you want. (Stealth Stam, Heavy Armor Stam, Fire Magicka etc.) This would mean those singular things (the primary parts of the talents str/int etc) are probably feeding more into different things that were originally split into the removed things like Strength. So now Stam goes for all forms of melee, and choosing little things like blunt etc. you decipher sort of a class.

 

It looks like polishing a dinner menu, just adjusting what category the things are under and putting in them in the places they should be.

 

The quantity of talents doesn't relate to the quality of the talents for those of you who are worried they're just taking them out to make it easier. It is easier, but not to appeal the masses, it's easier because Bethesda probably believes it should have been easier from the start rather than what it was.

Edited May 18, 2011 by dwellufool

[Zaldir]

I really wanted this in their "you're not classing, your whatever you want to be after you find out what everything does."

 

This means Stam could feed into melee, Magicka into casters, Health to healing type casters I'm guessing, or another approach to heavier melee.

 

They just got rid of the BS, gave you the three to choose from, and from there using the sub-classes you specify what it is you want. This would mean those singular things are probably feeding more into different things that were originally split into the removed things like Strength.

 

It looks like polishing a dinner menu, just adjusting what category the things are under and putting in them in the places they should be.

 

The quantity of talents doesn't relate to the quality of the talents for those of you who are worried they're just taking them out to making it easier. It is easier, but not to appeal the masses, it's easier because Bethesda probably believes it should have been easier from the start rather than what it was.

 

I like the comparison with a dinner menu! Every good restaurant polishes their menus and shortens them, along with improving the ones they keep. Bethesda is doing the same thing - removing redundant or unnecessary features, and polishing and improving the remaining ones, leaving us with a cleaner and most likely better game. :)

[redhorizon09]

 

 

And they have removed Athletics and acrobatics, which really didn't have much use as skills, as, well, who doesn't run or jump? Those skills were also too overpowered, as you could jump to places where enemies could not reach you very early in the game, or outrun anyone even when running backwards, also early in the game.

 

I understand the skepticism though, as there's been too many poorly made games lately. *Looks at Dragon Age 2 and Gothic 4*

 

 

I can agree with most of what you said in an earlier post, but I disagree with how bad you made the athletics and acrobatics sound; sure there were problems with these two skills but those were faults on Bethesda's end for not giving NPCs the ability to jump, and for not reducing the back peddling speed of characters. In other words, the acrobatci skill was only "overpowered" because the NPCs couldn't jump. I loved the realism of trying to outrun from an enemy who's athletics skills exceeded my character's because it adds more challenges to retreating. I actually liked having the ability to improve my character's acrobatic and athletic skills because it adds more character skill customization to the game. I would rather have this kind of freedom of customization instead of having everyone stuck with the same run speed, how high they can jump, etc.

 

Bethesda shouldn't have removed acrobatics and athletics, but should have just overhauled the system of how they work and make it harder for a character to improve on these skills. When I say overhaul, I mean things such as drastically reduce the speed of how fast a character can move backwards and actually allow NPCs the ability to jump. If NPCs can also jump, this can really bring some good changes to how fights would turn out in Skyrim because now NPCs will jump over certain obstacles when chasing you down or attempting to reach your level of ground. No longer can your character jump on top of a large rock and shoot arrows and spells freely at the retarded NPC who continues to foolishly run into the rock because it can't jump.

 

Another solution could be that if Bethesda is hell-bent on removing acrobatics and athletics, just incorporate the abilities of the skills into a character's stats much like how they incorporated mysticism into the other spell schools. For example, a character with high agility and endurance should be able to jump higher, move, and run faster than a character with low agility and endurance.

[BladeValant546]

I'm not just worried, I'm disgusted.

 

There's no such thing as easier access AND more in depth.

 

The only thing it does is make it more understandable for people that have never played an RPG.

 

I don't understand why they would import the WoW tree system. It just doesn't fit at all.

There is no WoW Tree system. If you think WoW was the first game to use talent trees, then I guess you are among the ones who have never played a true RPG... :P

Besides, in Skyrim, there is a Perk Tree for every skill, which means 18 trees, if not more, as there might be something like a "general" tree. (It's the same as in Fallout, only that now you can actually see which perks you can choose later when you pick a perk.)

 

And, yes, you can make something easier to access, but still give it more depth.

 

Actually, doing the math and other things this system will not work as it does not work on paper. Most of the time anything that does not work well on paper will not work in practice. This is not organic as it very straight forward and very limiting, you will be at the mercy of the game and it has a very large margin of error. While there is a small chance it could work, but it leaves me worried at the fact if it messed up the game will feel shallow, less never equals more ever. The lack of skills is why i am worried lack of decent attribute system invisible or visible is also disturbing considering things like dex. Lets just hope Perks work like Feats in pen and paper. But thanks for the responses both sides have good points well have to wait and see sadly I not getting this game on launch I want to wait and see how it works (sorry to many games have been bad and I cannot return computer games *looks at Dragon Age 2*)

What's your source that this doesn't work on paper?

And I can't say it's very straight forward, as there's so many possibilities with perks, and you have to choose wisely which perks to pick, as you can't even have every perk!

I don't see where this "lack of skills" is coming from? They have removed Mysticism, and placed every spell from it into other schools of magic, so there's not really anything missing there. And they have removed Athletics and acrobatics, which really didn't have much use as skills, as, well, who doesn't run or jump? Those skills were also too overpowered, as you could jump to places where enemies could not reach you very early in the game, or outrun anyone even when running backwards, also early in the game.

 

I understand the skepticism though, as there's been too many poorly made games lately. *Looks at Dragon Age 2 and Gothic 4*

 

Now the thing you must understand that there are certian aspects of a game like this that need stuff like dex, str, int, and stuff like that. Maybe it can work but in terms of organic designs you really need it to broaden the diversity. However, about the perks you must understand how they do it. Will they do it like feats in pen and paper rpgs? If so then it will work as working along with your skills. Now if they turn out to be perks and they add instant abilities and etc this will be a problem as over time there will be lesser choices as you have less skills you lower the amount of arm room. For example, if you were able to mix skills and cross over things, combine magic with weapons in real times (fire sword spell) or other things you broaden the options. It could work, but there is a very large margin of error, and again with the current trends in streamlining rpgs to much (IE Dragon Age,Mass Effect the ones I remeber playing) But good post and I understand, however I disagree with your acrobatics thing to be honest I wondering why people have the run away mentality instead of fixing things this disturbs me.

[dwellufool]

But good post and I understand, however I disagree with your acrobatics thing to be honest I wondering why people have the run away mentality instead of fixing things this disturbs me.

 

I don't know how often you fight walking Skeletons in real life, but if I saw one with a mace and shield coming at me I'd turn around and start running.

[mountainstorm2010]

But good post and I understand, however I disagree with your acrobatics thing to be honest I wondering why people have the run away mentality instead of fixing things this disturbs me.

 

I don't know how often you fight walking Skeletons in real life, but if I saw one with a mace and shield coming at me I'd turn around and start running.

 

 

Yea I totally agree with you. Retreating is sometimes necessary to win a battle. If I'm getting my face smashed in by an enemy that hits like a truck, I'd run too and live to fight another day instead stupidly try and go toe-to-toe with him/her at the moment. I think the guy that mentioned the "run mentality" is just full of himself.

[BladeValant546]

But good post and I understand, however I disagree with your acrobatics thing to be honest I wondering why people have the run away mentality instead of fixing things this disturbs me.

 

I don't know how often you fight walking Skeletons in real life, but if I saw one with a mace and shield coming at me I'd turn around and start running.

 

 

Yea I totally agree with you. Retreating is sometimes necessary to win a battle. If I'm getting my face smashed in by an enemy that hits like a truck, I'd run too and live to fight another day instead stupidly try and go toe-to-toe with him/her at the moment. I think the guy that mentioned the "run mentality" is just full of himself.

I believe you people need to reread my post, it obvious that was not referring to ingame battles, I was referring to the point that it seems to be a trend to either remove something and not fix it. Sheesh people need to stop point fingers and saying they are full of themselves, instead of either bring a counter point or try to understand ones point, but this is forum I should be used to this.

Edited May 19, 2011 by BladeValant546

[Zaldir]

But good post and I understand, however I disagree with your acrobatics thing to be honest I wondering why people have the run away mentality instead of fixing things this disturbs me.

 

Yeah, I don't really like the removal of the skill as a whole, but rather that than sticking to the old system. :)

Should rather have balanced it out though.

[Moja]

I don't mind the removal of athletics and acrobatics due to the way they were levelled, since it encouraged weird situations like jumping everywhere you went. What I do mind is condensing 8 attributes into 3 IF there's no way to get the same level of customization elsewhere. Todd always uses the example of intelligence = magicka. Well that's great, but how do I differentiate between increasing my magicka pool vs increasing my regeneration? How do I speed up my rate of attack vs increasing the damage of each hit? How do I run faster or jump higher?

 

It CAN all be done by perks, but my guess is it won't. And even if it is, it's much less clean than keeping attributes. I wouldn't mind if attributes were hidden, and levelled behind the scenes through skill use, with no direct user contact at all. But perks are too blunt an instrument for such fine degrees of customization.