No attributes? Am I the only one Worried?

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in the world who played Morrowind and Oblivion and picked and used that skills that I found useful and interesting, not the ones that would give me the best stat gains at each level-up.

You can say that again, genocidal-sister. http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/yes.gif

[Vagrant0]

Instead of removing attributes they could make them auto-level based on skill use, as was done in one variant of Kobus Character Advancement System mod (one I found indispensible to avoid this necessary powergaming).

 

I'm worried that without attributes, there are a lot of things about your character that you can't control. How fast do you attack? How fast do you run? How high do you jump? How much can you carry? How fast does your magicka regenerate, and how big is your magicka pool?

In reality, attributes alone really didn't affect that much, and you needed to gain lose 20-40 points in some to even see any noticeable difference. Everything you just said, all it was actually controlled by other factors which only referenced attributes to get a base value... and even then...

 

Attack speed was determined solely by weapon.

 

Run speed was affected primarily by athletics skill with speed stat being primarily just a base.

 

How high you jump was determined solely by acrobatics skill.

 

Carry weight was strength based; but was almost always just an annoyance unless you increased the multipliers or boosted strength beyond normal limits.

 

Magicka Regen rate was pretty much fixed or was not particularly affected by attributes.

 

Magicka pool was determined by a magicka multiplier value which was hidden from you that merely used a "intellect" stat as a base for the multiplier but capped rather quickly based on race and was easier to augment with fortify spells/abilities/enchantments.

 

Everything you just mentioned could be changed without any change to stats from some established base, and actually if that base remains constant those things can be easier to balance from a programming standpoint and allow for more meaningful ways of increasing those values; weapon skill, athletics, acrobatics, level/backpack items, level/magic skills, level/magic skills, respectively in addition to perks. Having carry weight separate from combat damage also means less chance of things becoming bugged when one is increased far beyond normal ranges.

[Moja]

Instead of removing attributes they could make them auto-level based on skill use, as was done in one variant of Kobus Character Advancement System mod (one I found indispensible to avoid this necessary powergaming).

 

I'm worried that without attributes, there are a lot of things about your character that you can't control. How fast do you attack? How fast do you run? How high do you jump? How much can you carry? How fast does your magicka regenerate, and how big is your magicka pool?

In reality, attributes alone really didn't affect that much, and you needed to gain lose 20-40 points in some to even see any noticeable difference. Everything you just said, all it was actually controlled by other factors which only referenced attributes to get a base value... and even then...

 

Attack speed was determined solely by weapon.

 

Run speed was affected primarily by athletics skill with speed stat being primarily just a base.

 

How high you jump was determined solely by acrobatics skill.

 

Carry weight was strength based; but was almost always just an annoyance unless you increased the multipliers or boosted strength beyond normal limits.

 

Magicka Regen rate was pretty much fixed or was not particularly affected by attributes.

 

Magicka pool was determined by a magicka multiplier value which was hidden from you that merely used a "intellect" stat as a base for the multiplier but capped rather quickly based on race and was easier to augment with fortify spells/abilities/enchantments.

 

Everything you just mentioned could be changed without any change to stats from some established base, and actually if that base remains constant those things can be easier to balance from a programming standpoint and allow for more meaningful ways of increasing those values; weapon skill, athletics, acrobatics, level/backpack items, level/magic skills, level/magic skills, respectively in addition to perks. Having carry weight separate from combat damage also means less chance of things becoming bugged when one is increased far beyond normal ranges.

 

Acrobatics is gone. Athletics is gone. I know in Morrowind, attack speed was modified by attributes, maybe not in Oblivion. And maybe I'm just remembering from mods I was using, but I thought willpower influenced magicka regen rate.

 

I just think there should be a difference between fighting styles. Swinging a sword very fast with small hits, vs slow, big hits. And a mage with 100 magicka and 20 regen/sec plays very differently from a mage with 500 magicka and 5 regen/sec.

Yes you can add this retroactively if it's not in the vanilla game, but why sacrifice so much in the base build just because "mods will fix it"? I honestly don't care about the stats themselves, but if the degree of customization they represent is removed, then that's an issue.

[Vagrant0]

Acrobatics is gone. Athletics is gone. I know in Morrowind, attack speed was modified by attributes, maybe not in Oblivion. And maybe I'm just remembering from mods I was using, but I thought willpower influenced magicka regen rate.

 

I just think there should be a difference between fighting styles. Swinging a sword very fast with small hits, vs slow, big hits. And a mage with 100 magicka and 20 regen/sec plays very differently from a mage with 500 magicka and 5 regen/sec.

Yes you can add this retroactively if it's not in the vanilla game, but why sacrifice so much in the base build just because "mods will fix it"? I honestly don't care about the stats themselves, but if the degree of customization they represent is removed, then that's an issue.

Maybe I'm just a bit behind, but I don't remember any specific mentions of skills being removed.

 

As for everything else, I'm sure these will be impacted by what sort of equipment you have, what skills you raise, what magic effects you have, what your level is, and what perks you have. In a series which is based strongly on personal customization and free roam, I don't see any of these things changing that... And even still, there is far more customization than most other games. People speak highly of the system present in DA and DA2, but that system actually offers fewer options when you really get down to it simply my way of how the classes are designed. Most other RPGs are in a similar boat, where you are only given illusionary "options" as to which specific build you are going to choose among those few which are designed as endgame viable with all other builds failing horribly.

[redhorizon09]

Hi everyone. I've been out of the TES scene for a while and recently, the Skyrim trailers have re-sparked my interest in the series. After some reading on the Skyrim information thread, it appears that Bethesda will indeed use a level up/attributes system similar to Fallout 3/New Vegas. So far, the changes don't seem bad. I enjoyed the perks given from Fallout 3/New Vegas' leveling system. It's not that I didn't like the level/attributes system in Oblivion. I actually found Oblivion's leveling/attributes system good for the most part... just hated grinding forever for skills to level up. I understand that to reach master levels of a skill should take some dedication and time, but it was almost ridiculous for some of the skills in Oblivion. I'm also not fond of everything about Fallout3/New Vegas' leveling system either, but it wasn't bad. Only things I hated from Fallout 3/New Vegas leveling system was the removal of athleticism and acrobatics and the stupid VATS garbage that caused game crashes and really simplified combat for the most part. Sorry but unless there's magic or some kind of legendary god-like skills involved in temporary time freezes, VATS just seemed very out of place for a game such as Fallout. For the most part, VATS made killing too easy for me; that's why I avoided using it.

 

With the changes to the attributes system in Skyrim, I hope Bethesda will reconsider about removing the athletics and acrobatics skills. I for one, loved playing stealthy, agile, and acrobatic type characters. I also enjoy playing the in-your-face athletic and/or acrobatic warrior who can also outrun/outmaneuver many of his/her foes when needed. Why would an in-your-face warrior need to be have the ability to outrun his foes? The answer is simple: when foes try running away from the warrior. Excellent mods such as MMM/OOO really added more life to Oblivion and caused some mobs to run away if they felt they were fighting a losing battle. This is where run speed plays a large part for melee based characters.

 

Why would I want my warrior or assassin to have amazing acrobatic skills as well? Jumping over large rocks and other obstacles to reach to my fleeing foes makes it easier to catch up to them. Combining fast run speed with excellent acrobatic skills makes fleeing difficult from such a character. Assassination type characters can jump from ledge to ledge and reach high ground for better concealment with good acrobatic skills. I also hope that Bethesda will finally give NPCs the ability to jump. It was stupid how in Oblivion and Fallout 3/New Vegas how NPCs would foolishly continue running into the large boulder you're standing on in trying to reach you. It's as if for some god forsaken reason, jumping was a legendary ability that only my characters knew how to do.

[Nightwolfhunter]

http://www.ign.com/videos/2011/04/25/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-evolved-video?objectid=93395&show=HD

 

there is a video where Todd addresses this issue (and a few others). They are there still, but they are more or less just not visible., if I understand correctly.

[FreekillX1Alpha]

For anyone freaking out: I recommend you download KCAS (Kobus Character Advancement System), and use the "Master of all" mode.

 

What that mode does is the following: Stats are set to the average of all 3 skills associated with it; example: If you level up blade 3 times your strength will go up by 1 point or alternatively you could level up blunt, blade, and hand-to-hand each by one point and gain 1 point in strength. Because of that your damage goes up, thusly if you ignore the attributes then if will feel like your skills govern everything (which in this case they do). As for luck you can set it to be increase by adventuring, or set it to the average of your skills or hell even set it to be random (it is luck after all). After you have set all that, tell it to reset your attributes and your ready to go. That will tell you what the skyrim system would feel like.

[Veugaroth]

For anyone freaking out: I recommend you download KCAS (Kobus Character Advancement System), and use the "Master of all" mode.

 

What that mode does is the following: Stats are set to the average of all 3 skills associated with it; example: If you level up blade 3 times your strength will go up by 1 point or alternatively you could level up blunt, blade, and hand-to-hand each by one point and gain 1 point in strength. Because of that your damage goes up, thusly if you ignore the attributes then if will feel like your skills govern everything (which in this case they do). As for luck you can set it to be increase by adventuring, or set it to the average of your skills or hell even set it to be random (it is luck after all). After you have set all that, tell it to reset your attributes and your ready to go. That will tell you what the skyrim system would feel like.

 

This is roughly the same way I think it should work - gradual increment of stats along with the use of skills they govern. As it was pointed before, it had no logic to be forced to spam skills (often minor) just to get the +5 stat on the next level up. Endurance suffered the most from this. If it worked like Intelligence it would be one huge step better. I still think stats should stay where they are, just change the way they develop as mentioned above.

 

The other thing is reduction of the number of skills, which does not sound as a good idea.

[Kaskas]

Less skills may mean more depth in the ones that are in the game, and some skills may be merged into others, and theres the magic word "perk", as long as perks are well balanced and interesting they can control many things that in past games involved a skill, maybe there are five perks in the sneak skill that works for the absent security skill (i dont know if security is going to be cut off, is just an example)

[BladeValant546]

Hi everyone. I've been out of the TES scene for a while and recently, the Skyrim trailers have re-sparked my interest in the series. After some reading on the Skyrim information thread, it appears that Bethesda will indeed use a level up/attributes system similar to Fallout 3/New Vegas. So far, the changes don't seem bad. I enjoyed the perks given from Fallout 3/New Vegas' leveling system. It's not that I didn't like the level/attributes system in Oblivion. I actually found Oblivion's leveling/attributes system good for the most part... just hated grinding forever for skills to level up. I understand that to reach master levels of a skill should take some dedication and time, but it was almost ridiculous for some of the skills in Oblivion. I'm also not fond of everything about Fallout3/New Vegas' leveling system either, but it wasn't bad. Only things I hated from Fallout 3/New Vegas leveling system was the removal of athleticism and acrobatics and the stupid VATS garbage that caused game crashes and really simplified combat for the most part. Sorry but unless there's magic or some kind of legendary god-like skills involved in temporary time freezes, VATS just seemed very out of place for a game such as Fallout. For the most part, VATS made killing too easy for me; that's why I avoided using it.

 

With the changes to the attributes system in Skyrim, I hope Bethesda will reconsider about removing the athletics and acrobatics skills. I for one, loved playing stealthy, agile, and acrobatic type characters. I also enjoy playing the in-your-face athletic and/or acrobatic warrior who can also outrun/outmaneuver many of his/her foes when needed. Why would an in-your-face warrior need to be have the ability to outrun his foes? The answer is simple: when foes try running away from the warrior. Excellent mods such as MMM/OOO really added more life to Oblivion and caused some mobs to run away if they felt they were fighting a losing battle. This is where run speed plays a large part for melee based characters.

 

Why would I want my warrior or assassin to have amazing acrobatic skills as well? Jumping over large rocks and other obstacles to reach to my fleeing foes makes it easier to catch up to them. Combining fast run speed with excellent acrobatic skills makes fleeing difficult from such a character. Assassination type characters can jump from ledge to ledge and reach high ground for better concealment with good acrobatic skills. I also hope that Bethesda will finally give NPCs the ability to jump. It was stupid how in Oblivion and Fallout 3/New Vegas how NPCs would foolishly continue running into the large boulder you're standing on in trying to reach you. It's as if for some god forsaken reason, jumping was a legendary ability that only my characters knew how to do.

 

That is also my same message I was trying to convey, because with just skills alone and no governing physical traits (only assuming they literally took them out vs you cannot add to them) will decrease depth of character creation. Also, with the notion that perk are instant gratification tactic that so many are use to and its fruits are instant results instead of gradual process. Not to mention speed, and agility is gonna be capped in the most likely scenario which already makes it the same as other rpgs. While I am confident that Bethesda maybe can pull it off. With the current trends in gaming with games like Mass Effect, FF, and Dragon Age, I cannot say I am 100% confident. Money does not equal quality in an artistic field, and complexity is better for us anyway a little math should be welcomed. Not all people are meta-gamers but no gamer (or at least the generation I know)is stupid, as the video game publishers like to believe.

 

The main concern also, in the long run with out those small little pin pricks of attributes, what going to set you apart from the Other mages, or THE other Warrior and the OTHER rouge. With Instant perks it can be troublesome even in Fallout, your character among your friends felt very much alike. Minus the moral choices (which i hope make a return) your characters really felt similar. We will have to wait and see for sure, but using inductive logic we have to remain cautious as many other companies take streamlining as a means to lower the bottom line to make more profit, and in the end I just want the Best for any game I hate lost potential.

Edited April 29, 2011 by BladeValant546