Thieves Guild and Mercer Frey BS. really !

[Lachdonin]

 

in the original story line you have to kill the leader of the graybeards for the story to progress there is no other way to get what you need

 

No you don't. Paarthunax and the Blades are a side thing, it's in no way linked to the progression of the main story.

 

And no, you don't need Beynjolf's help. You can go into the sewers on your own.

 

And even if you DO, there's nothing pushing you along the thieves Guild to become a Nightengale.

 

You're showing a stark lack of understanding at how Bethesda deals with their story telling. The stores aren't all about the same person. They're self contained adventures that you can CHOOSE, as the PLAYER to engage in, and in doing so it's up to YOU to explain why.

 

The Dragonborn, as an entity, only does 2 things. He stops Alduin, then stops Miraak. Possibly stops Harkon (since the scroll is required, it's reasonable to assume they are the same individual). But just like the Hero of Kavatch can't be positively linked to killing Mannimarco, or stopping the Blackwood Company, none of the other quest-lines ASSUME you are the Dragonborn. If YOUR Dragonborn does the Thieves Guild, it's YOUR job to explain why. It's not a shortcoming in the writing.

[woodsman30]

When I played this game for the first time nor do I think anyone else knew he was in the sewer or even how to get there. I guess I have no idea what your talking about. I also, guess my game is way different than yours I have no idea how you would "stop" Alduin without out the Blades involvement I don't think it is possible as you can not know about dragonrend shout without them nor could you summon the dragon at dragons reach. "the main story is you are dragonborn".. So I guess we agree to disagree.

You have taken this to a personal level it is a "GAME" get it?

Again you attack me saying I don't understand why? Are you so shallow to think you have the ultimate understanding of a "game" perhaps some fresh air would do you some good.

[Lachdonin]

I have no idea how you would "stop" Alduin without out the Blades involvement I don't think it is possible as you can not know about dragonrend shout without them nor could you summon the dragon at dragons reach

 

Which is totally separate from the 'Rebuilding the Blades' arc. Killing Paarthunax is in no way related to thwarting Alduin.

 

 

 

Again you attack me saying I don't understand why?

 

No, i am not attacking at you. I am saying that you are evaluating the basis of the story dynamics of the game incorrectly, and that is influencing your conclusion. I would say the same thing if you said Lord of the Rings is stupid because they just should have used the Eagles. Its a statement that shows a lack of understanding about the context of the stories, the narrative design behind them, and their intended function.

 

TES is not designed with a singular character in mind. It is designed to include multiple stories, and to allow players to engage in whatever stories they wish. Doing the Theives Guild, without doing the Alduin questline, is just as valid as doing both, in any order. The character you play has their own story, and that is shaped by the storylines you CHOOSE to involve yourself in. But that does not mean that you are assumed to be the Dragonborn in every story. In fact, there are only 2 in which you definitely are, with a further 2 (Dawnguard and Rebuild the Blades) in which you probably are.

 

In all other cases, the stories are intended to be as vague as possible about your individual identity. If you WANT to be the Dragonborn, the Listener, the Harbinger, the Archmage and the Guildmaster, you're free to do so. But how your character fits into those stories, and the motivations behind the decisions they contain, is up to you. The stories themselves aren't there to make assumptions about your identity.

 

This isn't a game like Inquisition, where EVERYTHING you do, you do as the Inquisitor. It isn't like Wild Hunt, where no matter what stories you dabble in, you are Geralt of Rivia. TES allows you to be whomever you want, even if that means NOT being the Dragonborn. And how it handles its stories and questlines is shaped by that philosophy.

 

So if YOUR Dragonborn did the Thieves Guild Questline, it's you who decides why. It's not on Bethesda to give you that answer, and their story isn't stupid because it doesn't assume you're the All Powerful Dragonborn.

[pgir001]

Well, for one... You aren't necessarily the Dragonborn. You can be someone else if you want, just don't go to Whiterun. If you, as the Dragonborn, choose to engage in that storyline, it's on your head to figure out why.

 

The complaint shows a stark lack of understanding of how Bethesda designed TES. You aren't Geralt of Rivia during the Third Nilfgarde War. You don't have a set story, or set actions throughout the world. You are whoever you want to be, with a backdrop of the Stormcloak Civil War and the return of Alduin.

 

The world isn't a single, cohesive story of the Dragonborn. It's a collection of self contained stories with no relation to each other, happening simultaneously. The only instances where the Dragonborn is categorically involved is Alduin, and Miraak. If you choose to involve your Dragonborn in other actions, the how and why is on your head to explain.

 

In short... It's only a problem because you're looking at it the wrong way.

From above, you also said "The stories aren't all about the same person"

 

I don't agree with this assessment. You are the Dragonborn. Even if you do other stories 1st, you just haven't been revealed as such. But this is the only way it makes sense. Even then, ONLY if you got to Riften straight out of Helgen, and thus are still a nobody. Otherwise for each story you complete before the TG, you are going to Rften as someone important. So, OK, Fine, I load a mod that lets me play Skyrim as someone else and I'm not the Dragonborn. But unless I do the TG as my very 1st story, I am still The Harbinger for the Companions. Or maybe I am the Arch Mage from the College of Winterhold. Or maybe I am The Listener for the Dark Brotherhood. Sorry, but Brynjolf isn't going to assign mundane simple errands to The DB's Listener is he? I wouldn't. I also think The Listener might have some pull with Maven as well no? I believe Maul makes a reference to Maven using the DB when discussing what happens if you cross Maven. ( I could be wrong, but I know I remember some reference to Maven using the DB.)

 

But if you do choose the main quest, you get sent as the Dragonborn to some of these factions. You have to seek Brynolf AS the Dragonborn, you have to seek the College AS the Dragonborn. It's even worse then.

 

To do as you suggest, (Referencing your above quote) requires me to deliberately suspend all my previous experience with what the game has shown me up to this point and totally disregard it as irrelevant so that I am no longer the character the game has set me up to be.

 

In short.....It's only not a problem, because you are looking at it the wrong way.

Edited January 27, 2016 by pgir001

[Lachdonin]

I don't agree with this assessment.

It's not an assessment. It is a stated design element that has been explicitly voiced by the developers. You are only the Dragonborn if you WANT to be, and you express that want by doing the relevant quest.

 

There ARE some problems with the design, yes. Having to join the College of Winterhold just to speak to the Librarian was sloppy. But nothing assumes you go beyond that. Having to impress Brynjolf to get information doesn't instantly make you a Nightengale.

 

Your complaint is grounded in a stark misunderstanding of how the games stories are implemented, and the intent behind them. You might as well complain that Dark Souls' difficulty is a problem because it discourages casual players.

[kittybrod]

 

From above, you also said "The stories aren't all about the same person"

 

I don't agree with this assessment. You are the Dragonborn. Even if you do other stories 1st, you just haven't been revealed as such. But this is the only way it makes sense. Even then, ONLY if you got to Riften straight out of Helgen, and thus are still a nobody. Otherwise for each story you complete before the TG, you are going to Rften as someone important. So, OK, Fine, I load a mod that lets me play Skyrim as someone else and I'm not the Dragonborn. But unless I do the TG as my very 1st story, I am still The Harbinger for the Companions. Or maybe I am the Arch Mage from the College of Winterhold. Or maybe I am The Listener for the Dark Brotherhood. Sorry, but Brynjolf isn't going to assign mundane simple errands to The DB's Listener is he? I wouldn't. I also think The Listener might have some pull with Maven as well no? I believe Maul makes a reference to Maven using the DB when discussing what happens if you cross Maven. ( I could be wrong, but I know I remember some reference to Maven using the DB.)

 

But if you do choose the main quest, you get sent as the Dragonborn to some of these factions. You have to seek Brynolf AS the Dragonborn, you have to seek the College AS the Dragonborn. It's even worse then.

 

To do as you suggest, (Referencing your above quote) requires me to deliberately suspend all my previous experience with what the game has shown me up to this point and totally disregard it as irrelevant so that I am no longer the character the game has set me up to be.

 

In short.....It's only not a problem, because you are looking at it the wrong way.

 

The problem with your idea that "assign mundane simple errands to The DB's Listener is he" is that, yes he would. He probably wouldn't even KNOW you are the DB's listener, AND the thieves guild is a completely separate entity. In a way, that is realistic. The only way it isn't realistic is that typically a person in such a high post wouldn't even be interested in joining a different guild. Think of it this way: You wouldn't take a master painter and place him at the top of a computer game company would you? (this is assuming that of course the master painter had no knowledge or only layman's knowledge of computers). I know I certainly wouldn't. If a person approached me about that, if his background doesn't include computer programming knowledge, he starts at the bottom. It is the same with guilds. Just because you are guildmaster of the Fighter's guild doesn't mean you can start at the top, or higher than the bottom of the Mage's guild. They are two different guilds with two different skill sets (technically, though not really in game play) required.

 

This is the same thing as the Thieves guild and all other choices the PC can make. First off, Brynjolf has to decide not only whether or not the PC has the ability to become a member, but also the trustworthyness of becoming a member (though I don't think you could actually go to the guards and tell that story), he isn't just going to go up to you and say, HEY, I heard you were X (and if it is the DB Listener, then he becomes a marked man as I thought no one except the next person in the hierarchy was supposed to know that), how would you like to become guildmaster? He is going to want to test you. Also, the lower level quests are meant to give the PC an idea of what is required (sneak, pickpocket, lockpicking etc...) instead of dumping the PC, who might not have been using those skills, right into the middle of it.

[pgir001]

 

I don't agree with this assessment.

It's not an assessment. It is a stated design element that has been explicitly voiced by the developers. You are only the Dragonborn if you WANT to be, and you express that want by doing the relevant quest.

 

There ARE some problems with the design, yes. Having to join the College of Winterhold just to speak to the Librarian was sloppy. But nothing assumes you go beyond that. Having to impress Brynjolf to get information doesn't instantly make you a Nightengale.

 

Your complaint is grounded in a stark misunderstanding of how the games stories are implemented, and the intent behind them. You might as well complain that Dark Souls' difficulty is a problem because it discourages casual players.

 

No, the design is incomplete. The intent is fine, the implementation is not. My issue is grounded in that the distinction between the stories is rushed, sloppy and obvious. I have made this complaint in the past. in my 1st play-though, I didn't do the Companions until last. If you have ever done that Story Ark late in the game, the sloppiness of writing becomes even more apparent. Long after saving the city from a Dragon attack, becoming Thane wearing "Late Game" gear having already captured a major dragon in Dragonsreach and flew off on its back (As if that doesn't gather attention) You sow up in Jorrvaskr and You hear Kodlak talk about seeking fame and Vilkas saying "I've never even heard of this outsider" OK, fine, they live under a rock and don't get out much. So then I have to hear Vilkas say his sword is worth more than I am. Then I hear Aela tell me I might actually be stronger than I look. To which I think, What about double enchanted legendary tempered dragonscale looks "weak"? Then Skjor says "You need to prove yourself whelp". Flying off on dragon back, marching into Sovngarde and defeating a god (2 if you count Tsun) alonside legendary Ancient Nord Heroes isn't enough for you is it?

 

This is a HUGE break in context. Now you want to tell me the developers say it's intended. Well, I say, doesn't matter, it's rushed and sloppy. It's poor writing at best. It's virtually impossible to not suspend the continuity of my character's development without making a conscious decision to acknowledge the disconnect not just once or twice, but with almost every single interaction. You are telling me it's so that I can play how I want. But I can't. Because what I want is continuity of character. I want to join the Companions as the Dragonborn. I want to tell Aela and Skjor that I don't need their beast blood since I've already exceeded "The heights of the Companions" and I don't want to taint my Dovah Sos with Hircine's blood. I am the Dragonborn.......sorta.

 

 

Anyone can crank out half finished work and say they meant to do that. It's still half finished work.

Edited January 28, 2016 by pgir001

[pgir001]

 

The problem with your idea that "assign mundane simple errands to The DB's Listener is he" is that, yes he would. He probably wouldn't even KNOW you are the DB's listener,

 

Fair enough

[woodsman30]

 

 

I don't agree with this assessment.

It's not an assessment. It is a stated design element that has been explicitly voiced by the developers. You are only the Dragonborn if you WANT to be, and you express that want by doing the relevant quest.

 

There ARE some problems with the design, yes. Having to join the College of Winterhold just to speak to the Librarian was sloppy. But nothing assumes you go beyond that. Having to impress Brynjolf to get information doesn't instantly make you a Nightengale.

 

Your complaint is grounded in a stark misunderstanding of how the games stories are implemented, and the intent behind them. You might as well complain that Dark Souls' difficulty is a problem because it discourages casual players.

 

No, the design is incomplete. The intent is fine, the implementation is not. My issue is grounded in that the distinction between the stories is rushed, sloppy and obvious. I have made this complaint in the past. in my 1st play-though, I didn't do the Companions until last. If you have ever done that Story Ark late in the game, the sloppiness of writing becomes even more apparent. Long after saving the city from a Dragon attack, becoming Thane wearing "Late Game" gear having already captured a major dragon in Dragonsreach and flew off on its back (As if that doesn't gather attention) You sow up in Jorrvaskr and You hear Kodlak talk about seeking fame and Vilkas saying "I've never even heard of this outsider" OK, fine, they live under a rock and don't get out much. So then I have to hear Vilkas say his sword is worth more than I am. Then I hear Aela tell me I might actually be stronger than I look. To which I think, What about double enchanted legendary tempered dragonscale looks "weak"? Then Skjor says "You need to prove yourself whelp". Flying off on dragon back, marching into Sovngarde and defeating a god (2 if you count Tsun) alonside legendary Ancient Nord Heroes isn't enough for you is it?

 

This is a HUGE break in context. Now you want to tell me the developers say it's intended. Well, I say, doesn't matter, it's rushed and sloppy. It's poor writing at best. It's virtually impossible to not suspend the continuity of my character's development without making a conscious decision to acknowledge the disconnect not just once or twice, but with almost every single interaction. You are telling me it's so that I can play how I want. But I can't. Because what I want is continuity of character. I want to join the Companions as the Dragonborn. I want to tell Aela and Skjor that I don't need their beast blood since I've already exceeded "The heights of the Companions" and I don't want to taint my Dovah Sos with Hircine's blood. I am the Dragonborn.......sorta.

 

 

Anyone can crank out half finished work and say they meant to do that. It's still half finished work.

 

Ah I see I am no the only one who thinks like this. What is funny though is NPCs will comment on "you help people right that's what you do" so some know something right ?.What also is funny is if you have Hearth-fire installed you can only adopt from the orphanage if you kill Greta the kind other wise they tell you to leave you don't belong here lol. So only when I become a murder am I capable to be a parent nice. I get it nobody assumes your Dragonborn but no-one seems to know your a Thane either.. guards still try to punk you out even though they "heard about you and your honeyed words" but never heard I was their Thane ..lol. However, the Yarl of Faulkreath heard about you and sends you a letter wanting to meet you ..wait ..what? I ride around Whiterun on a dragon, I am Thane, own a house, restored the gildergreen tree and helped all in Whiterun but the companions think I need to prove myself..ok. I like Skyrim don't get me wrong I have played many hours but some things are just weird.

[Lachdonin]

So, you want the game to recognise the order in which you do things, all your accomplishments, and adjust its delivery of storylines to account for those? The inability to do that isn't rushed or sloppy, it's impossible. The sheer number of variables available means that adjusting storylines in that way would require Bethesda writing, minimum, 6 questlines (base-line, Main quest, 2 other guilds, 2 factions for Civil War) for each story. Far, FAR more if they account for minor quests and secondary stories.

 

NO ONE had done that. It's highly probable that no one CAN do that. You might as well be complaining that humans can't breathe under water.