Joseph Stalin

[FritzDerochebrune]

I saw the movie 'Archangel' yesterday. In the movie you can see how people in Russia still see Stalin as a hero.

 

That got me wondering: how do you see Joseph Stalin? Hero or devil? As they say in the film: He inherited a country with wooden ploughs. When Stalin died, it was a superpower with nucliar weapons. He also defeated the nazis (with a little help from the allies) and ensured a fascist-free Europe.

 

Still, he has killed an estamated 5 - 20 million people. And though the nazis were gone, communism wasn't much better for the people in Eastern-Europe

 

So what is your oppinion?

 

Cya

 

Fritz

[Malchik]

It is highly unlikely that most people in the former USSR had much idea about what was going on. As in the USA today, the media was completely gagged by the government. Indeed, in so far as there was no 'internet' available, there was no genuine chance even to hear an outside opinion.

 

So what your 'man in the street' thinks of Joe, you have to treat with caution.

 

Totalitarian government comes down to the same ends whether so called communist or so-called fascist. Let us just be glad that he is dead.

[ninja_lord666]

I agree with Malchik. If you think about it, fascism and communism aren't all that different. The policies a different, but the end result on the people is almost identical.

 

As for Joe, he was a murdering, socialist pig. I hate him.

[Vagrant0]

Hero, role model, one of the greatest leaders of our time. The country was going through tough times from the aftermath of WWI, and he did what he had to do for the sake of his country.

 

Not really... But I'll play the devil's advocate here just to see where it goes.

[Jonlissla]

Well, Stalin did what Hitler did in Germany in his early days. He brought order.

After World War 1, Germany had the highest inflation ever recorded in history. For a piece of bread, you had to literally pay a whole wagon filled with money. Hitler promised to fix this if his party was chosen (which he did).

Another example of what power Hitler gave to the german people was not only order, but also cooperation. When he was preparing Germany for war once again, he didn't order new ships the be built; he salvaged old warships that had sunk. It took about one or two weeks to make them fit for fight again, so to speak. Everyone worked together.

So, Hitler was not only crazy, he was also the best speaker in known history. No one has turned a broken country into a military superpower in such short time.

 

So in short, Hitler brought order (and united the people).

 

(In case you wonder, I'm NOT a nazi. I'm just interested of old military history :happy: )

[Marxist ßastard]

Both of you are severely mistaken --- perhaps more so than those interviewed in the film the OP saw.

 

The principal leaders of Russia immediately after its withdrawal from World War I were Lenin and Trotsky. Stalin played no major role in any of the revolutions leading up to this event --- actually supporting the provisional government of 1917, which the October Revolution overthrew --- and was appointed to an officer position in the Red Army during the civil war that followed. He slowly gained power in the years thereafter, doing nothing remarkable with his newfound abilities except for the purpose of gaining popularity. Trotsky, meanwhile, led the October Revolution and commanded the Red Army during the civil war, serving alongside Lenin until his death in 1924. Upon Lenin's death, Stalin named himself the de facto leader of Russia and exiled Trotsky, whom he later had assassinated.

 

On the eve of World War II, Stalin ran frightened and tried desperately to arrange for the Marxists' traditional enemy, Britain, to defend Russia. When that brilliant plan failed, he then negotiated a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany. In accordance with the pact, Stalin invaded Poland along with Hitler, taking the eastern portions of the country for himself.

 

Deciding that his master plan for Communist-hating Germany and ostensibly-Communist Russia to be forever in peace and share a border would be a success, Stalin led the Red Army into Finland, effectively forcing himself to fight two unrelated wars on three fronts should Hitler decide to break said pact. (Luckily for him, however, Russia was in control of Finland before this event happened, although at great loss to the Red Army.) When Hitler inevitably broke said pact, Stalin proceeded to bravely sit with his proverbial thumb up his proverbial ass until Germany's military was quite literally at his doorstep. What did Stalin do to save the day? After such devastating defeats, how did the Red Army possibly manage to not only drive the German military out of Russia, but also take Berlin before the Americans? He gave up and let his generals control the Red Army; as per prior arrangements, of course, Joe took all credit for what happened afterward.

 

Stalin's domestic policies very closely mirrored the haphazard and incompetent manner in which he directed the Russian wartime effort. Any portion of Lenin and Trotsky's industrialization strategy that Stalin chose to continue was facilitated directly by the resources of the Russian citizen due to Stalin's deluded, hopelessly nationalistic, and outright absurd economic policies. The conditions under which Russians lived --- Stalin and his newly-created class of bureaucrats excluded --- declined dramatically in the period between a few years before he took power to a few years after. Soviet Russia during and after Stalin could not be described as Fascist, and it certainly could not be described as Communist. It was simply an ad hoc arrangement of a deeply bureaucratic system of government, created by a cowardly, insecure, mentally defective, incompetent man who wanted nothing other than to be worshipped like a God by the largest nation in the world, no matter how many people had to suffer to make that happen. Every facet of Russian government and culture during this time was specifically engineered to provide this for him, and then to delay this house of cards from falling down for as long as possible.

[Jonlissla]

When Hitler inevitably broke said pact, Stalin proceeded to bravely sit with his proverbial thumb up his proverbial ass until Germany's military was quite literally at his doorstep. What did Stalin do to save the day?

 

Well, Stalin was after all paranoid. When his airplanes (the pilots, that is) saw the Germans in Russia, and reported this to Stalin, he had them all excecuted for "treachery", because "there was no germans in Russia" according to Joseph.

 

What's wrong with politicians these days (and before)?

[Marxist ßastard]

The word you're looking for is "delusional." A paranoid person wouldn't --- in the span of one war --- try to ally himself with one of his enemies, trust another enemy absolutely, help that enemy invade a country that's en route to his own border, and then finally again attempt to ally himself with the same enemy that told him to get lost earlier (who is at that time also in league with another of his enemies).

[Jonlissla]

The word you're looking for is "delusional." A paranoid person wouldn't --- in the span of one war --- try to ally himself with one of his enemies, trust another enemy absolutely, help that enemy invade a country that's en route to his own border, and then finally again attempt to ally himself with the same enemy that told him to get lost earlier (who is at that time also in league with another of his enemies).

 

Well, for me he will always be paranoid! :happy:

[FritzDerochebrune]

Both of you are severely mistaken ... long as possible.

 

Wow... Thanks, I've learned a few things about Stalin from you... Until I saw Archangel, I've allways concentrated on the German army during WWI and WWII (and the political battles in the Interbellum)

 

@ Jonlissla: you're intrested in old military history too? What is your specialization? WWI? WWII? other?

 

 

So: thank you!

 

Cya

 

Fritz