God

[Albareth]

Santa doesn't exist....?

 

:blink:

[Argoren]

Difficult topic. In general I think it doesn’t matter what somebody believes in. The only thing that’s important: What do you do out of it?

Everyone who uses his believe in whatever, to make this a slightly better place to live in, is right.

And everyone who abuses religion for his own selfish or narrowminded purposes, is wrong.

 

Personally I tend to believe in different dimensions. Our body’s consists of millions and millions of formerly independent individuals, we call them cells. Millions of years ago some of their ancestors decided to do some teamwork, they “created” the next form of life. This new individual lead to the next and well, you know the story goes.

We are probably the lowest level of lifeform able to be aware of that. Still we feel as if we would be ONE person with ONE mind. In fact we're just a combination of indefinite characters doing teamwork and well, you can imagine what happens if they cannot agree!

The point is, that we – and all the other lifeforms on this planet – are a result of “lower” lifeforms and not “higher” one’s! This means you might also look at our planet as some kind of lifeform – created by us. It’s not a conscious decision, it’s just a logical conclusion. You can spread this as far as you like, solar system, galaxy, universe - there is probably no limitation.

From that point of view - if there is any kind of god/s he/she/they exist because of us, it’s not that we exist because of him/her/them!

 

I'm not going deeper now, it would end up in astrophysics and that would take too long. I'm hungry and leaving for the weekend. :blush:

[Mojlnir]

Both Silvuru and Peregrine are scoring were valid points here, and Silvuru is right in pointing out that there is no way to prove either the one or the other. We can see here the root of many of the most vitriolic arguements that have existed throughout history. Religious wars stem out of these exact kinds of philosophical disagreements. Fortunately, no one is going to start another Crusade out of this argument, but we can see how the original crusades got started. I "believe" that my God is the only God and his word is final, therefore your "God" is non-existent and you are an idolitor or infidel because you worship a false god and must therefore be converted or destroyed.

What puzzles me is when/where/how organized religion supplanted the original teachings of the respective prophets. Jesus did not teach that Christians should wage "holy" Crusades on Muslims nor that church supported explorers should rape, loot, and sack the entire continent of South America. Islamic wars were initially wars of succession, not against "infidels" in the sense of external non-beleivers. The Koran does not preach the use of suicide bombers and I believe that the word "jihad" has been perverted from its original meaning of "struggle." The vast majority of Muslims, Christians, and Jews are peace-loving, tolerant and compassionate people. The same holds true for those who choose to become agnostic or atheist.

It matters not what our respective religions are, what matters is how we treat people we interact with. There is nothing wrong with any of the root beleifs, the problem lies rather with the institutionalization of the respective religions. Humans are entitled to believe in whatever they want but they do not have the right to persecute those who believe otherwise from them. The major religions do not preach intolerance, but rather humility, compassion and charity. The institutions humans have built upon the religious foundations are the sources of the hate, greed and intolerance.

Therefore, believe in what you wish and respect the beliefs of others. Engage in constructive debate, be open minded and learn from those you interact with during the course of your life. We can never know what waits for us after we pass from this world so believe whatever you want and enjoy the trip.

[Ancalagon]

Wow, Mojlnir. You totally summed up this topic :D.

 

I agree with Peregrine, Reality doesn't care about us. Same thing with the Universe. Both are indifferent to us, we could be anihialted by an asteroid right now, and all we would have to show for the existance of our race is landing gear and a plaque on the moon. I mean, if you put all of this into a Universal Perspective: our lives, our jobs, all of our Religons, our Wars, everything, none of it amounts to squat on a Universal Perspective. It may mean something to us, but in the end, we're just 6 billion highly evolved Monkies stuck on this little mud ball of a planet. This is the very reason Religion and God was created. Because people couldn't or didn't want to think that they had no purpose except to live, multiply, and die. This is Reality, and Reality is that there is no God, there is no 'Heaven' or 'Hell', and the Earth is just another rock in space that life just so happened to form upon. If I was unable to accept all this, then I would certanly want to beleive in something else like Religion.

 

My 2 cents, take it or leave it...

[Akrid]

I believe this debate has been conducted respectfully so far. Turning away from the idea of god is not somthing you do because you want to, it's one of those adult thing's that you do because you have to. I see it as my nature to Know The need to know everything, I can't except answers if I don't understand why they our my answers. I can't undrrstand how some people just accept thier beliefs without ever questioning them, without ever asking, "how do I know" Unless you where visited, by some angel or somthing you use vauge reasoning. (You = those who belief, this post not torward any paticular one)

[Mojlnir]

You make an interesting point Acrid. And I think the answer is matter of perspective more than anything else. People who believe in a particular God feel that they have done the research required to substantiate their beliefs. A strong believer in Christianity may honestly believe that all the proof they require for their faith resides in that book. Same scenario applies to Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, etc. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this! Problems arise when people become so entrenched in their beleif systems that they cease to be open-minded when confronted with other ways of thinking. This is not only a religious problem, take for example the fervent debates that occur between scientists of differing opinions, or the fight that occurs when a political scientist and an anthropologist attempt to discuss the reasons for genocide.

Beliefs, regardless of how they are obtained provide a lense through which people can look at the world. Normally, the "world" is too complex for the human mind to process all of the information sources that we encounter. The human mind can handle approximately seven different "images," which are really simplifications of reality for purposes of information processing. My experience lies in political psychology, and particularly cognitive mapping and image theory. And while this is not the place to discuss those topics, they provide insight into why people develope beliefs and cling to them. It also helps to explain why people react to stimuli in the ways they do.

I helps me to think of religion (or lack thereof) as an interpretive lens through which an individual views the world. These lens are developed through education, experience, and to a certain extent, upbringing. They color the way a person sees the world and consequently influences the decisions they make. There is no one lens that is better than another because they all function in essentially the same way. It boils down to how a person views the world, and you can't attack them for that.

[SilvuruAgnost]

Theta Orionis I think that it wasent a very good point to pick up santa claus(and i hpe it was a joke). becouse santa claus have acually lived. he was a monk who gave presants to the poor. :P

[Emry]

[it] helps me to think of religion (or lack thereof) as an interpretive lens through which an individual views the world. These lens are developed through education, experience, and to a certain extent, upbringing. They color  the way a person sees the world and consequently influences the decisions they make. There is no one lens that is better than another because they all function in essentially the same way. It boils down to how a person views the world, and you can't attack them for that.  (quoted from Mojlnir)

 

 

Nicely put, Mojlnir. We define and explain our world through our sensory input and the interpretation of that data. As we go through the course of our lives we change the "lenses" as we change our perspective.

 

The God I believed in as a child is not the same God I am coming to understand today; I've wrestled with my faith and I question it frequently. And I don't always find the answers. But I still continue to search because it is in our inherent nature to question its surroundings and attempt to progress "forward". IMHO, if you don't question what is around you, and want to coast through life by blithely accepting what is thrown at you, then you belong in the shallow end of the gene pool.

 

Seriously, It is through the process of questioning and challenging our beliefs (singly and in a community) that understanding (and faith) grows. Its the journey through life - how we take what we are taught and apply it in our lives and how we pass it on to future generations - which is important.

 

For me (and to get back on topic), I find comfort in the belief that there is an Omnipotent Being who created this Universe, filled it with wonder and has created us as part of that universe to experience the joy and wonder it holds.

 

End of sermon..... Selah..... Amen

[cmac]

Simple answer: No.

Long answer: I don't believe in any form of god or higher power, and I don't see any reason to. The world works just fine without one. I believe that god is a creation of our own minds, a more comfortable answer to life's difficult questions. Death and is not a pleasant thought, so the existence of an afterlife is a better story for many people. Same thing with the lonely thought of being alone in the universe, it feels better to think that there is a god.

My thoughts exactly, Peregrine.

I believe that humans in general have some inherent desire, for whatever reason, to look for a source of all that has evolved into its current form. While all the 6:00 Sunday church-goers way argue that "god is someone that I pray to, and I hear him, and he loves me!" it seems that they are simply masking their own ignorance of the world around them.

To quote George Carlin,

 

"When it comes to bullsh*t, big-time, major league bullsh*t, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullsh*t story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

 

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullpoo story. Holy Sh*t!

 

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is [screwed] up.

 

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

[Akrid]

Same scenario applies to Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, etc. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this! Problems arise when people become so entrenched in their beleif systems that they cease to be open-minded when confronted with other ways of thinking. This is not only a religious problem, take for example the fervent debates that occur between scientists of differing opinions, or the fight that occurs when a political scientist and an anthropologist attempt to discuss the reasons for genocide.

 

I agree that there are debates about all kind of thing's Mojlnir. The purpose of debates however is to weed out the lies and half truths, and find the facts and establish a thesis, if I'm not mistaken. The problem relgion poses is, people must have their rights to believe, that's fine let alone, but where it becomes a problem is like you said when they become so entrenched in their beliefs they only see things their way or no way. Like for exsample many christans (including my father) think that the ten comments should be posted every five feet through out America, but any other religion should not be alowed to post their beliefs in public. Religon I see as wrong, and a wrong that can not be weeded out by debate, and will be a hinderance towards scientific advancment. If a religous group where to say making us super human and resurecting the dead is playing god, I can't benifit from those discovery's, I consider that an assault on my freedom to pursue life, and my beliefs. If some one close to me died and they could simply be brought back with a simple operation but it would be considered necromancy, and I had to let them die, I would be furious and hold religion accountable. Now such science does not exist, as least not yet, so I can live with people of diffrent beliefs because they don't infringe on my life. unfortunetly I feel one day there will be a confrontation of church vrs. science and I wont do nothing.