Implicit Dependencies, TES4EDIT

[forli]

Everything is diagnosable, yes, but a crash will not easily bring you to the script/mod which caused it.

 

Script don't run like the game code: the script engine comes and run the scripts by parsing the script code and converting it to C++ calls: so it read the commands and call the C++ code associated to that command, which may be in the exe or in some dll.

 

The crash can't happens in the scripts, as they don't really run (the script engine calls C++ code by reading and parsing the code in the scripts). The crash may happens inside those C++ calls and it's very difficult to understand which script was being "executed" by the script engine, because Windows only give you a stack trace (and the script doesn't appear here). You would need a debugger, the state of the RAM at the moment the game crashed and (as Contrathetix said) it would really help the source code, something probably Bethesda will never release

Edited April 12, 2016 by forli

[Amessagetoyou]

Maybe some of the info provided could have some meaning for people with the right tools to debug the thing. Perhaps tracing the issue might be possible with some professional decompiler and debugging tools, but I have no idea. Just trying to debug a self-written C-program when it crashes is already tedious, and debugging something with no access to source code of any sort is probably just insane. :tongue:

 

Maybe something like this could help somehow with some issues: http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/45870/

 

Getting the exact cause is probably not trivial, it might be possible somehow, but that sort of things just usually do not get printed in a file. If they were, no one would be asking for the cause on the forums when they could read it off their screen. Maybe. When programming, the ideal situation is to account for all potential sources of crash, but in reality, it is not possible. When an error that is unaccounted for happens, it is unaccounted for, and whatever system is used to catch errors might not register it, so it is not possible to get the info before the program goes down. But that is just my opinion. Copying files from A to B is so trivial there is really not much room for error (though there actually is some room for error, there is always room for error everywhere, always). Executing tens of thousands, maybe millions of lines of code is nowhere near trivial. Especially when the content the program processes is something as versatile and easily modified as that in Oblivion.

 

Edit: That is just my opinion, and I am not an expert. If someone knows of a way to get the exact cause of a crash, I would love to hear it.

Aah I see, so assuming I had access to Oblivion source code it would be possible to actually debug the errors, I was kinda surprised that it would not possible to know what the cause of a human-made program error is :smile:

 

But what confuses me is the fact that I have a working copy of oblivion (Steam) + Official and Unofficial patches, DLC, several popular overhaul mods and a small assortment of non-conflicting relatively minor mods.

Almost all my mods are installed using Mod Organizer + sorted with loot.

 

CTDs I get usually happens while initiating a new action such as, entering a new cell, running outside and "loading a new area", switching categories in inventories, sleeping, waiting, etc.

But they do not form a pattern that I can see, it is almost happening just for the sake of giving me some occasional annoyance.

If it happened everytime while doing a certain action I would disable all my mods and try again one by one. (Though I am still surprised that there is no way to actually tell which mod could be causing problems WITHOUT manually removing and readding them...)

 

It is not like I have a bad system or the parts of my hardware were made by some ancient long-lost civilization.

I have 12 GB of RAM, I7-4900MQ, Dual 680Ms none of which could even come close to struggling with oblivion (According to Performance monitor utility)

 

 

I am sure there are people using practically the same mods as me with similar CPUs and GPUs and still not having these crashes...

 

Though I'm willing to admit I'm gonna blame most of those errors on the design of the game itself, I have had much less problems with Skyrim than I did with Oblivion :smile:

 

Also when I there is an error WHY does it have to throw me off the entire game? If I added a mod that made a small change and it gave me an error why doesn't that change just stop being implemented in the first place instead of crashing the whole game? It is not like when I have an error in my computer it explodes, whatever I'm doing just stops working that's it ;)

Edited April 12, 2016 by Amessagetoyou

[mhahn123]

 

 

Almost all my mods are installed using Mod Organizer + sorted with loot.

 

CTDs I get usually happens while initiating a new action such as, entering a new cell, running outside and "loading a new area", switching categories in inventories, sleeping, waiting, etc.

But they do not form a pattern that I can see, it is almost happening just for the sake of giving me some occasional annoyance.

If it happened everytime while doing a certain action I would disable all my mods and try again one by one. (Though I am still surprised that there is no way to actually tell which mod could be causing problems WITHOUT manually removing and readding them...)

 

It is not like I have a bad system or the parts of my hardware were made by some ancient long-lost civilization.

I have 12 GB of RAM, I7-4900MQ, Dual 680Ms none of which could even come close to struggling with oblivion (According to Performance monitor utility)

 

 

 

 

 

Not much to chime in on here, I think the previous posters have you covered very well.

 

On the topic of sorting Oblivion mods with LOOT, it's really not an optimal solution. LOOT is not geared to work well with the very specific load order requirements established for Oblivion modding. It does a passable job with only a handful of mods, but as the load order list becomes more extensive, LOOT becomes more of an epic fail. Loading mods way out of whack from where they should be. I strongly suggest switching over to BOSS just for your Oblivion gaming needs. And not just because I'm slightly jaded. I tried LOOT. Which didn't work well and prompted me to help get BOSS back on it's feet again.

 

On the topic of PC stats, it does help to have a well rounded PC, but that only goes so far. Oblivion is an old game which has engine limitations that no amount of PC muscle will overcome. It was not developed to utilize multi-core processors and 12 Gb of RAM, and the game engine is known to manage memory very poorly in some ways. The most you can utilize with Oblivion is slightly more than 3Gb of RAM. And even that requires modification via a 4GB patch to make happen. Bottom line to all this is that the game engine can be overloaded, and it's not so difficult to do. Mods that use high res textures, or add lots of visible when distant objects, or add lots of NPCs, or are heavily scripted can all be considered potential culprits.

 

Hope this helps clear things up a bit.

[Amessagetoyou]

 

 

 

Almost all my mods are installed using Mod Organizer + sorted with loot.

 

CTDs I get usually happens while initiating a new action such as, entering a new cell, running outside and "loading a new area", switching categories in inventories, sleeping, waiting, etc.

But they do not form a pattern that I can see, it is almost happening just for the sake of giving me some occasional annoyance.

If it happened everytime while doing a certain action I would disable all my mods and try again one by one. (Though I am still surprised that there is no way to actually tell which mod could be causing problems WITHOUT manually removing and readding them...)

 

It is not like I have a bad system or the parts of my hardware were made by some ancient long-lost civilization.

I have 12 GB of RAM, I7-4900MQ, Dual 680Ms none of which could even come close to struggling with oblivion (According to Performance monitor utility)

 

 

 

 

 

Not much to chime in on here, I think the previous posters have you covered very well.

 

On the topic of sorting Oblivion mods with LOOT, it's really not an optimal solution. LOOT is not geared to work well with the very specific load order requirements established for Oblivion modding. It does a passable job with only a handful of mods, but as the load order list becomes more extensive, LOOT becomes more of an epic fail. Loading mods way out of whack from where they should be. I strongly suggest switching over to BOSS just for your Oblivion gaming needs. And not just because I'm slightly jaded. I tried LOOT. Which didn't work well and prompted me to help get BOSS back on it's feet again.

 

On the topic of PC stats, it does help to have a well rounded PC, but that only goes so far. Oblivion is an old game which has engine limitations that no amount of PC muscle will overcome. It was not developed to utilize multi-core processors and 12 Gb of RAM, and the game engine is known to manage memory very poorly in some ways. The most you can utilize with Oblivion is slightly more than 3Gb of RAM. And even that requires modification via a 4GB patch to make happen. Bottom line to all this is that the game engine can be overloaded, and it's not so difficult to do. Mods that use high res textures, or add lots of visible when distant objects, or add lots of NPCs, or are heavily scripted can all be considered potential culprits.

 

Hope this helps clear things up a bit.

 

Well, what frustrates me is the fact that sometimes the errors are very specific. Like running towards a particular direction and wait for the CTD to come across :)

 

Sometimes it is completely random I can get a CTD and load a savegame 10 seconds earlier and do the same thing and it works fine.

If it is textures/scripts/mods causing the issue why would it choose to give me a CTD and sometimes not? It is not like by loading my savegame the game loads different data.

This is the reason I'm confusing and the fact that there is no way to diagnose the issue...

[mhahn123]

Not different data per say...but different scenario to some extent. Keeping in mind the types of mods we are talking about, where are we when the CTD happens? Is it when we are near a particular area, or when we face a particular direction? Looking towards IC for example is a common one, or near the IC waterfront. Areas with lots of NPC and creature spawns (which all have AI being processed, and sometimes scripts). Creature spawns for example may not be exactly the same every time you load that area. Is it a place with lots of mod added architecture? Ships in particular have many individual pieces and animated sails which tend to be hard on some systems.

 

It can be any combination of these and other factors. But all that said it's not impossible to diagnose, just tedious. Unfortunately it does involve disabling mods one at a time to get a feel for what the general cause may be. If you use things like RAEVWD..try eliminating some parts. With Hi-Res texture packs...you may have to pick and choose certain things. It really can be a picture puzzle in some regard trying to find what works on your system.

[Amessagetoyou]

Not different data per say...but different scenario to some extent. Keeping in mind the types of mods we are talking about, where are we when the CTD happens? Is it when we are near a particular area, or when we face a particular direction? Looking towards IC for example is a common one, or near the IC waterfront. Areas with lots of NPC and creature spawns (which all have AI being processed, and sometimes scripts). Creature spawns for example may not be exactly the same every time you load that area. Is it a place with lots of mod added architecture? Ships in particular have many individual pieces and animated sails which tend to be hard on some systems.

 

It can be any combination of these and other factors. But all that said it's not impossible to diagnose, just tedious. Unfortunately it does involve disabling mods one at a time to get a feel for what the general cause may be. If you use things like RAEVWD..try eliminating some parts. With Hi-Res texture packs...you may have to pick and choose certain things. It really can be a picture puzzle in some regard trying to find what works on your system.

That's how I was dealing with CTDsm by disabling mods one by one. But it still does not say what is causing the problem (like specific texture, script, etc). And the problem is that CTDs can happen in almost all activities.

I've had a particular problem with Planes of Oblivon where I would get CTDs in approximately 8 out of 10 cases during the loading screen back to Cyrodiil. Loading a savegame just before taking the sigil stone and repeating fixes the problem. I just learned to save right before taking the stones.

 

Other than that I would get CTDs all over the place. Sometimes running around, sometimes during loading screen, sometimes right after fast traveling. But reloading the same game does not produce the exact same result (aka no consistent crashes). It almost makes me feel like it is there just to throw in some occasional frustration.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Amessagetoyou